maxx
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Post by maxx on Sept 25, 2007 14:32:06 GMT -5
Hi, I'm new here and I need help with the matter in object. I have an old guitar which has no electronics, and I would like to fit in 3 mini humbuckers. I have no experience but I would like to try to do it myself. How do I wire the PUs? I was reading around in the web about series or parallel wiring but I couldn't find nothing specific for mini humbuckers. My idea was to have independent control for each PU so to have access to different PUs combinations. I found something like that here: www.axiomatic-music.co.uk/acatalog/CircuitDiagrams.html(scroll down to "Gibson Les Paul Custom - Modified 3 Pickup Schematic") but is for a 3 humbuckers Les Paul, would it work with mini humbuckers? (I wonder how 3 mini humbuckers Gibson's Firebirds are wired...) Are the PUs in that diagram wired in series or parallel? Could I use a push/pull pot to have the middle PU work in series or parallel with the other PUs? (I hope I'm not talking nonsense...sorry if I do) Also, which parts are needed (pots, capacitor, wire...)? Where to buy them? Is shielding necessary/recommended with mini humbuckers? Sorry for putting so many questions together, hope it's not confusing Can anyone help? A good diagram, along with your suggestions, would really help. Thanks a lot Maxx
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Post by jkemmery on Sept 25, 2007 17:14:04 GMT -5
First of all, welcome to the board. The wiring schematics at the link would work for any pickup, even single coils since there is no coil splitting going on. The pickups are wired in parallel with one another in the diagrams. Humbuckers, including mini humbuckers have 2 coils that are generally wired in series with one another, although many have 4 leads, essentially a hot and a ground for each coil to allow for coil splitting and/or parallel wiring. Check out this post, it may help to give you some overall information regarding wiring ... guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1182529560Shielding is generally a good idea regardless of the types of pickups you use. Check out this section for lots of good diagrams. I hope your head doesn't explode ... guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schemGood luck and welcome again. Let us know if you have any more questions ...
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Sept 26, 2007 7:02:36 GMT -5
Thanks a lot J.! I've found another diagram here, which has the same combination, but is a bit clearer to me. www.guitarelectronics.com/product/WDUHHH3T2201I'd read all the links you showed me already, but I probably need to go back there. One main question is: if I use the diagram I mentioned, can I wire all 3 PUs in series ( instead of parallel) , and use Push/Pull pots to switch them or one of them back to parallel? Do this make any sense? (Mini Humbuckers only have 1 lead.) Thanks a lot Maxx
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Post by jkemmery on Sept 26, 2007 10:50:19 GMT -5
If you want to switch all 3 between series and parallel, you would need to do something like JohnH's ToneMoster2 ... guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1130243150I did a version of this without the blend pot, I could post a schematic of it if you want. As far as putting all 3 pups in series, I don't believe a push/pull will suffice, although if you are willing to do just a couple of pups in series, and not all of them, you could try something like this ... but it shows it with a strat style 5-way switch ... www.deaf-eddie.net/drawings/strat-series-2.jpgI can't attest for how well that system works, as I've never tried it. The ToneMoster2 is awesome, IMO. while your on that site, follow the links on this page for good info ... www.deaf-eddie.net/drawings/drawings.htmlThe problem when putting the pickups in series is that, if you want to turn one off, then you have to account for that and create a bypass, or you break the connection and thus have no output. JohnH's ToneMoster2 is the best I've seen for allowing all pups to be put in series or parallel and individually switched. It requires a 4PDT switch, which while it isn't hard to come by, is not a push/pull. While Gibson mini-humbuckers only have the one lead with a braided ground wire, Duncan and DiMarzio minis do come with 4 leads like a normal humbucker should (IMO, of course) If you're using single lead pups and aren't concerned with coil-tapping or in and out of phase switching, using a slightly modified ToneMonster2, you could use 3 DPDT switches to turn on or off each pup, and those could be your push/pulls if you chose, and one 4PDT toggle to switch between series and parallel. (And no, I'm not affiliated in any way with JohnH or the ToneMonster2 ... )
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Sept 26, 2007 20:34:38 GMT -5
Hi J., thank you for the time you're taking trying to help! Your infos are very helpful indeed Your suggestion at the end of your post is very intersting. By chance I've found a schematic/diagram somewhere else in this community kindly posted by JohnH, that (I think) could fit to your proposition Here they are with his comment: Schematic diagram: people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/3xseriesparallelschematic.gifand wiring diagram: people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/3xseriesparallelwiring.gif"The idea for this circuit is to have a very simple on/off operation for each of the three pup switches, which does not change when you flick the series/parallel switch, so it should be very easy to use and hard to confuse. Ive also tossed in a phase reverse switch on the bridge pup, which can be deleted if not wanted. Alternatively, another could be added as well to the middle or neck." What do you think? I could use Push/Pull pots instead of S1 S2 S3 and 4PDT switch for series/parallel as you said Or if I use three volume controls (leave just a tone control for all PUs), could I avoid the use of Push/Pulls to turn the PUs on/off? Another problem is that apparently 4PDT switches aren't easy to find Would it possible to use the Push/Pull function to put 1 of the PUs in series/parallel with just the next? i.e.: Neck PU Push/Pull Series/Parallel with Middle PU Middle PU Push/Pull Series/Parallel with Bridge PU Bridge PU Push/Pull Series/Parallel with Neck PU Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm just guessing...... besides, it's half past 3 in the morning here!! :-) Actually, I better go get some sleep right now Again, thanks a lot Maxx
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Post by jkemmery on Sept 27, 2007 11:23:30 GMT -5
Maxx: I'm not sure if using the volume to turn the pups on and off would work with this scheme, but you could make each volume a push/pull that would turn each pup on or off and then blend them in to the mix, although when the pups are in series, the volumes probably won't work as a separate volume for each pup, basically, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be ....) the entire system would default to the lowest volume. That diagram you posted is basically what is posted in the ToneMonster2 post, except that one includes a blender. It's a little hairy to follow, but it works. It took me about 2 hours to wire mine up, but that had a couple more switches. Since you want all 3 in series, I would go with the lowest impedance pups I could find so that it isn't too far over the top with all 3 in series. Mine right now has 2 farily hot hums and one fairly hot single coil and with all in series produces a farily awful sounding crackly-fuzzy distortion even when the amp is set clean. The setup will eventually have a mediup hot humbucker (DiMarzio Norton) and 2 medium hot singles (DiMarzio Red Velvet and Blue Velvet), but I digress ... Here's a link to the switch on AllParts, but you may be able to find them cheaper if you EBay "4PDT" which is what I did and got 5 for like $20 with shipping. www.allparts.com/store/electronics-switches-ep-4370-010,Product.aspThe problem I ran in to when trying to design, test and build a system similar to what you describe with the multiple switches for putting the pups in series is that you get a lot of "dead" spots, as in, switch combinations that basically shut off the sound. I came up with a couple different schemes, and posted them to which the guru's here said "well, it probably won't work as intended ..." but I wired them up anyway only to find out that the guys here were right. I spent a lot of time trying to come up with something like that, then I found where JohnH had posted his 4PDT scheme and I really like the versatility of it. You get a LOT of pup combos and while not all possible, plenty to play with, especially if you throw in coil splitting and phase switching, you come up with a guitar that can emulate darn near any sound you want from reedy to twangy to hollow and glassy to all out rippin' and chunky. So, I'm saying, if you have the inkling, go ahead and play with it, come up with some ideas and try them out, you'll learn a lot and get lots of practice soldering ... but the ToneMonster2 style with the 4PDT basically ended my search for a switching system that included series and parallel combinations.
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Sept 27, 2007 11:48:07 GMT -5
Hi J., thanks for being so exaustive and clear. I think I'll have to try and go for the ToneMonster2, but browsing this forum I've also found this: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1153502513Is this working like the ToneMonster2? For what I can tell(very little...) it's an interesting combination of series/parallel (maybe too many switches?...) What's your opinion? One last question and then I'll leave you alone... About shielding: my guitar has a metal pickguard, would it help or cause problems when shielding the guitar? Thanks a lot Maxx
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Post by jkemmery on Sept 27, 2007 12:47:10 GMT -5
I had looked at that, but ruled it out because it was, (to me) less intuitive from a switching standpoint and because when the "drive" switch is "on" (putting the pups in series), you still need at least 2 pickups selected, or you get dead air. Still, it's a very good swtiching design, (kudos to ChrisK) and, if you want to try it out, by all means, give it a shot.
The metal pickguard may actually help for shielding. When you shield a strat style guitar, you basically cover the back of the pickguard with copper or foil and attach it electrically to the rest of your cavity sheilding and ground it. You basically will just need to ground your pickguard, just be sure your pickups aren't grounded to it. I've never used one though.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 27, 2007 20:06:36 GMT -5
Hmmmm................................................................... Uh-oh! If'n these mini-humbuckers have a single conductor shielded wire lead, that there shield is connected to the metal cover, which is connected to the metal pickguard, and any series position will become an "OFF" (as in short'ski) position. Any series structure where a shield connection is also a coil signal connection is problematic from the perspective of shorting (as above) or extreme noise injection (as in touch the floating metal can connected to the amp input signal). If you resolve this issue, I have several series/parallel schemes that realize ALL possible structures such as this one; guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1186634210and extrapolated on here; guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1189753004&page=2
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Post by jkemmery on Sept 28, 2007 7:36:29 GMT -5
Then again, maybe not .................
However, if the pups only have one lead with a braided shield, ChrisK is right ... it'd be hard to get anything other than parallel wiring with them.
Which is an excellent diagram. Have you built it yet? It's a little much for me to get my head around. I get 57 tones using the ToneMonster2, but with an HSS layout using phase switches for the single coils and an ON/ON/ON for the hubucker wired for Internal Series/North Coil/Internal Parallel. When I get bored with all of that, and feel like racking my brain, I might try something like that, just for kicks .... still, I'd love to see some pics of a build when you get the time. That would be awesome.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 28, 2007 11:53:28 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Sept 28, 2007 15:30:14 GMT -5
Hey jk - just wanted to say thanks for your interest in the TM2, and Im glad its working out for you. With the extra functions that you've added, it must be a very versatile beast. I think that if one was reinventing the 3-pup guitar with comprehensive controls, then such separate switches for each pup would be the logical choice. I have mine with 3x single coils, using some GFS vintage alnicos, which works very well. I also have a JFET preamp booster at the end of the circuitry. With that, and the series options, I can wind it up enough to create some smoke. More than 50 years after the invention of the Strat however, theres a great amount of cultural precedent for the conventional 5-way controls, locked into the collective subconscious of guitarists. So theres also advantages in keeping the controls looking the same. For that reason, my more recent 3-pup build is the 'Dual-sound'. guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1169252165Like the TM2, it offers all combinations of 1, 2 or 3 pups, in series or parallel. I thought I'd point to it here, because it covers all the same ranges as the TM2, and it is a simpler build and keeps a Strat looking like one. It also has an HSS version, as yet unbuilt, which will work very nicely. And Chris - looking forward to seeing picks of your new build. I particularly like the line of oval controls, very elegant and tactile. John
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Sept 29, 2007 6:23:05 GMT -5
Hi, Chris and all thanks for your help
The guitar I have with the metal pick guard is (supposedly) a 60's Rickenbacker model 450 Since it has no electronics, I was thinkin to fit in 3 of the 4 minihumbuckers I have The PUs are 2 Gibsons and 2 Epiphone, are used and I don't Know from wich guitar they have been taken out of. I've looked better and the 2 Gibsons have 1 single shielded wire comin' out of each one, while the Epis have 3 wires (1red, 1 black, 1 silver) As for the connection of the PUs with the pickguard, I imagine this can be avoided, since I think I'll have to screw the PUs to the body. Besides, I'm planning to make a new pickguard and this could be made in plastic (or wood?)
I would like to remark, thou, that I'm a beginner in this matter and I don't even have a clue if it is a good idea soundwise to have miniHBs wired in series (maybe they sound awful...) I got interested in this option while browsing this forum in search of a diagram on how to wire 3 PUs Besides, the TM2, especially without the phase switch, doesn't look very complicated to my eyes and that made it even more appealing, given that this is my first experience with wiring.
This said I'm in your (all of you) hands, and if you tell me is not recommended to try and wire these PUs in series than I'll go back to standard wiring
In case you think the TM2 option is still valid, could you please make a list of all the components I need to buy and they're respective values ? Please consider that my pickguard has the classic 4 knobs and 1 switch configuration and that I'd rather use Push/Pulls where possible. I would add a switch hole to the new pickguard I'm making, but only if strictly necessary
Thanks a lot for your patience
Maxx
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 29, 2007 21:21:29 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the shield is one of the two connections to the mini humbucker coils.
If you can live with the possibility of touching the metal covers and inducing significant hum while playing, then go for it.
Also, the pickups may not be in electrical phase with each other (their signals will subtract), you may need to swap the inner lead and shield on an individual pickup basis.
I would recommend that you cover any shield that may be swapped or elevated above ground (in series) with insulation in the form of heat shrink tubing wherever it has the possibility of touching a ground point. This includes the possibilities of a pickup's metal cover touching a metal pick guard.
That being said, there is not much difference in configuring mini humbuckers in series since they are "just pickups" anyway. Since mini humbuckers tend to be "between" single coils and humbuckers in sound loudness and complexity, mini humbuckers in series ought to sound somewhere "between" single coils and humbuckers in sound loudness and complexity when in series. ;D ;D
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 30, 2007 1:57:19 GMT -5
would dipping/spraying the pickup and its shielded wire in rubber cement, varnish, clear coat, melted coke bottles, work to insulate them without causing irreparable damage?
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Post by sumgai on Sept 30, 2007 11:15:48 GMT -5
ash, Yes, except maybe for cleaning up the melted coke bottle part...... pouring that molten glass over the pickup and wiring is probably gonna be too hot for them, and I think there might be some irreparable damage, indeed. ;D
HTH
sumgai
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Sept 30, 2007 14:55:55 GMT -5
Also, the pickups may not be in electrical phase with each other (their signals will subtract), you may need to swap the inner lead and shield on an individual pickup basis. Is this to be taken into account also with parallel wiring? Also, the pickups may not be in electrical phase with each other (their signals will subtract), you may need to swap the inner lead and shield on an individual pickup basis. Uh.Oh!..... I start to think that I'm getting myself into something that's bigger than me!.... I would recommend that you cover any shield that may be swapped or elevated above ground (in series) with insulation in the form of heat shrink tubing wherever it has the possibility of touching a ground point. This includes the possibilities of a pickup's metal cover touching a metal pick guard. That, I imagine, shouldn't be too complicated. As for the metal pickguard, is my intention to make a new one in plastic or wood, so it shouldn't be a problem Also, I have a couple of questions about the TM2 parts list as posted by JonhH The main parts of the circuit are: - On/off switches for each pup: DPDT mini-toggles (3 needed)
- Phase switch: DPDT mini-toggle (or could be part of a push/pull pot)
- Series/parallel: 4PDT mini-toggle
- Volume and tone pots: 500k audio taper preferred. 1M would also work well.
- Blender pot: 100k Linear, detented, dual gang, with one track scraped at centre position as described)(EDIT - option: 250k linear dual gang non-detented)
- Resistors: 2 x 2.7k, 2 x 100k (or 39k if 250k blender pot used)
- Blender treble bypass capacitor: 1.5nF = 0.0015mfd
- Volume treble bypass capacitor: 1nF – but worth trying lower values, say 470pF
- Tone capacitor: 10nF = 0.01mfd (personal choice, most people use 0.022 or 0.047mfd, but I find a lower value is more appropriate for series wiring)
Given that I'm thinking of avoiding blender and phase switch, to keep things as simple as possible 1 - On/off switches for each pup: DPDT mini-toggles (3 needed)Could on/off switching be obtained with 3 volume controls? Is there a difference? 2 - Volume and tone pots: 500k audio taper preferred. 1M would also work well. Volume treble bypass capacitor: 1nF – but worth trying lower values, say 470pF Tone capacitor: 10nF = 0.01mfd (personal choice, most people use 0.022 or 0.047mfd, but I find a lower value is more appropriate for series wiring)Are the above values valid for minihumbuckers as well? Thanks a lot for your help Maxx
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Post by JohnH on Sept 30, 2007 16:14:15 GMT -5
Also, I have a couple of questions about the TM2 parts list as posted by JonhH The main parts of the circuit are: - On/off switches for each pup: DPDT mini-toggles (3 needed)
- Phase switch: DPDT mini-toggle (or could be part of a push/pull pot)
- Series/parallel: 4PDT mini-toggle
- Volume and tone pots: 500k audio taper preferred. 1M would also work well.
- Blender pot: 100k Linear, detented, dual gang, with one track scraped at centre position as described)(EDIT - option: 250k linear dual gang non-detented)
- Resistors: 2 x 2.7k, 2 x 100k (or 39k if 250k blender pot used)
- Blender treble bypass capacitor: 1.5nF = 0.0015mfd
- Volume treble bypass capacitor: 1nF – but worth trying lower values, say 470pF
- Tone capacitor: 10nF = 0.01mfd (personal choice, most people use 0.022 or 0.047mfd, but I find a lower value is more appropriate for series wiring)
Given that I'm thinking of avoiding blender and phase switch, to keep things as simple as possible 1 - On/off switches for each pup: DPDT mini-toggles (3 needed)Could on/off switching be obtained with 3 volume controls? Is there a difference? 2 - Volume and tone pots: 500k audio taper preferred. 1M would also work well. Volume treble bypass capacitor: 1nF – but worth trying lower values, say 470pF Tone capacitor: 10nF = 0.01mfd (personal choice, most people use 0.022 or 0.047mfd, but I find a lower value is more appropriate for series wiring)Are the above values valid for minihumbuckers as well? Thanks a lot for your help Maxx Maxx The on/offs for the TM2 do need to be switches, rather than just turning a pot up and down. If you wanted, you could use push/pul switches, where a two poles switch is mounted on a pot. and you would pull and push to switch the pups on and off. It seems a bit awkward in use, to me, however. For pots and treble bleeds, my current preference is for 500k pots and treble bleed comprising a 1nF cap in parallel with a 220k resistor, both wired between hot and centre lugs of the volume pot. John
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 30, 2007 16:40:40 GMT -5
And you can forget about the refund of your bottle deposit.
Yep.
The output frequencies of pickups in series that are in phase add. The output frequencies of pickups in series that are out of phase subtract.
The output frequencies of pickups in parallel that are in phase average. The output frequencies of pickups in parallel that are out of phase cancel.
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 30, 2007 23:24:17 GMT -5
Sorry, forgot you guys are like old and stuff. When I said "coke bottle" i was a thinking plastic 20 oz.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 1, 2007 0:18:31 GMT -5
ash, Errr, I was thinking of those yellow cylinders that look like old pharmacy pill bottles. You know, the ones that hold perhaps an ounce of powder........... Yer gonna have to work a teensy bit harder to get over on me there, pardner! ;D sumgai
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Oct 1, 2007 5:19:49 GMT -5
The on/offs for the TM2 do need to be switches, rather than just turning a pot up and down. If you wanted, you could use push/pull switches, where a two poles switch is mounted on a pot. and you would pull and push to switch the pups on and off. It seems a bit awkward in use, to me, however. John Thanks John. I understand. I was asking just because my guitar has a 4 knobs and 1 switch configuration, and if I only need 1 Tone and 1 Volume (as I said, no blend and phase shifting, to keep things simple), what do I do with the 2 other knobs? BTW: you're from Australia? Radio Birdman are one of my favorite bands ever! Have you heard of them? For pots and treble bleeds, my current preference is for 500k pots and treble bleed comprising a 1nF cap in parallel with a 220k resistor, both wired between hot and centre lugs of the volume pot. John Is this meant for just Tone and Volume control, or you're talkin about the Blend control (which I'm not gonna use)? Please, forgive my ignorance! Cheers Maxx
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Oct 1, 2007 5:20:51 GMT -5
Thanks Chris. Forgive my ignorance, how can I check if the PUs are in or out of phase with each other? Is it a tester enough? Hopefully I have a friend of mine with some more knowledge to help me out with this mess I'm getting myself into! ;D
Cheers Maxx
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 1, 2007 18:25:28 GMT -5
What? You're hear to learn, how can that be ignorance? Well, you already "see" the answer in "....in or out of phase with each other". Phase is relative to another. And, you already have one of them (it's the other pickup that you're out of phase with)! Now, I DO recommend that one record the magnetic polarity of pickups that they use. If you have one with a known polarity, you can use any small bar magnet as a test tool. Just mark the end that attracts a pickup magnet of known polarity, with THAT polarity (it will really be the opposite polarity, but we're looking to make a tester here), or if the test magnet is of a known polarity and marked, you'll then know the actual (opposite) polarity of all others tested. There are two main components to phase (there is a third, but it's not encountered); magnet polarity and winding direction. Secondly, the winding direction, regardless of the top starting/bottom finishing/north coming/going south for the winter/etc stuff that folk talk aboot, only relative clockwise and counter-clockwise matter. If two pickups produce desirable signals that subtract/cancel, reverse the wires from one. Firstly (unfortunately), the other component is the magnet polarity, and this only comes into play if the two coils/pickups need to be humcanceling relative to each other and in phase with each other. When one is using internally humbucking pickups, only the wiring needs to be reversed to change a phase issue with another pickup. While it would be nice if all pickup makers followed a common phasing practice, they all do not. As a result, pickups can be out of phase with another, especially between makers (most makers have the good sense to ensure that their own pickups are in phase with each other, but this has not always happened either). If I recall, you have two from one maker and two from from another. Hmmm..... Given: the two Gibson's are a single conductor plus shield. The two Epi's are three wire. Could you measure the Epi pickups? What is the resistance from: red to white, white to silver, silver to red, all three wires individually to the metal cover. I'm looking for 6 measurements here. Measure both Epi pickups (and both Gibson pickups JFTHOI). This will also help determine if there is a bridge and neck version of both. Write it down and save it. You may wish that you had it in the future. What I want to find out on the Epi pickups is if; a. the silver is just a case/ground wire, b. the red and white are the pickup coils end wires, or an end wire and an inter-coil tap (with the silver having an internal connection to the other end wire). Depending on the answers, what you want to do may be as hard as we make it out to be, or much simpler, especially if you're willing to use two Epi's (again depending on them there measurements) and one Gibson. If we can relegate the Gibson(s) to parts of possible structures that have one end grounded.......... Let us know, Use a digital multi-meter, either with an auto ranging feature, or on the 20K Ohm range (if it goes over-range, switch to a higher one).
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Oct 2, 2007 6:07:16 GMT -5
Hi Chris, thanks for your patience When one is using internally humbucking pickups, only the wiring needs to be reversed to change a phase issue And that should be my case right? Here are the measurements: Epi PUs (both the same) Red and Black..................6,5 KOhm Silver and Black................nothing(!?) Silver and Red..................nothing(!?) Metal Cover and Black.......nothing(!?) Metal Cover and Red.........nothing(!?) Metal Cover and Silver.......0 KOhm Gibson PUs (both the same) Black and Silver.................6 KOhm Black and Metal Cover........6 KOhm Silver and Metal Cover........0 KOhm I'd actually rather do the opposite, but if too hard, I'll do with what is there.... Please remind that I'm not after complex PU configurations (as in phase shifting, coil splitting....), I just wanted to have all three PUs working in parallel (and series, but I start givin' up on this option, since I see there's a lot to learn first....) Cheers Maxx
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 2, 2007 23:37:40 GMT -5
maxx,
Great! And thanks.
Yes.
This is what we now know:
These are indeed single conductor with shield and the shield is connected to the case (as expected). These will have the shield/cover noise injection issue if placed in series or phase reversal is needed.
The silver is a grounding connection to the cover.
The red and black are the end wires to the internal series structure, but they ARE NOT connected to the case or silver. This means that we can reverse the phase of these and/or elevate them in series with another pickup, while grounding the silver wire/case for noise control, WITHOUT incurring/suffering any shorting or noise injection issues.
While not complete, the freedom that this does give will help tremendously. Keeping the Gibson pickups grounded and using the Epi (or Epi's) pickups as add-ons in series will certainly help.
Now, what do you want to do, now? Presuming that the use of an ungrounded or series elevated case is problematic, You could do the following:
You can use both Gibson's, but they will have to have their shields grounded. This limits them to the bottom part (if you will) of any series structure, and when used together, it can only be in parallel. In essence, one or both of these could drive the Epi in series with them. This would give you two pickups in series (neck * middle, bridge * middle, or [neck + bridge] * middle).
You could use both Epi's and one Gibson, with the Gibson the bottom part of the series structure and the Epi''s free to be in series as well as in or out of phase (one only needs to change the phase of n-1 pickups to effect all possible phase variations). This gives you the possibility of ALL possible structural variations of three pickups which are 17* excluding OFF (which does not include phasing or internal pickup coils combined with other internal pickup coil). Since these are presented externally as "just" two wire pickups, this isn't possible anyway.
I might also be tempted to use all four pickups, either equally spaced or combined in groups of one Gibson and one Epi as a wiiiide humbucker. Or not!
I like the Gibson/2 Epi's approach for its flexibility.
Anyway, there are a few means a'board for the three pickup scheme.
*These are the possible combinations (those in bold are not possible for the 2 Gibson 1 Epi structure.)
B M N B+M M+N N+B B+M+N B*M M*N N*B B*M*N B+(M*N) M+(N*B) N+(B*M) (B+M)*N (M+N)*B (N+B)*M
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maxx
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by maxx on Oct 3, 2007 17:26:06 GMT -5
Hi Chris, This is what we now know: These are indeed single conductor with shield and the shield is connected to the case (as expected). These will have the shield/cover noise injection issue if placed in series or phase reversal is needed. The silver is a grounding connection to the cover. The red and black are the end wires to the internal series structure, but they ARE NOT connected to the case or silver. This means that we can reverse the phase of these and/or elevate them in series with another pickup, while grounding the silver wire/case for noise control, WITHOUT incurring/suffering any shorting or noise injection issues. While not complete, the freedom that this does give will help tremendously. Keeping the Gibson pickups grounded and using the Epi (or Epi's) pickups as add-ons in series will certainly help. That is an excellent explanation! Thanks I start to see some light! ;D
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 4, 2007 0:01:18 GMT -5
Well, it is the impossibility of more than 17 combinations since we have no intercoil tap connections exiting the pickups that might enable the partial use of just one coil in a pickup. This is difficult to say. Quality is in the ear and wallet (and perception) of the beholder! Gibsons are probably better quality in that probably more was spent on the components, but it's a personal choice. If you don't like one, you can change it to the other. No. No, but you might end up removing the thread in the mounting ear holes depending on the screw size that you use. This would prevent them from being used in a different, pickguard mounted project. Yes, sometimes I talk funny................... Yes. The subset list of the 17 possible combinations is still quite flexible (12 combinations). B M N B+M M+N N+B B+M+N B*M M*N N*BB*M*NB+(M*N) M+(N*B)N+(B*M) (B+M)*N(M+N)*B(N+B)*M Now, a typical Ric has 4 pots and a three way selector. You could, for instance, use the three way selector to select bridge/bridge+neck/neck. You could use one push pull pot ("A") to select the middle in series with the output of the three way selector (mostly) or in parallel with the output of the three way selector. You could then use a second push pull pot ("B") to select the middle as on or off (well, sort of). I see a way for these two pots to realize the following: A B d d three way only u d middle only d u middle + three way u u middle * three way Logically this is: d d (b, b+n, n) u d m d u m + (b, b+n, n) u u m * (b, b+n, n) This is 10 combinations. There are two that it doesn't do (B+(M*N) and N+(B*M)), but it's still pretty flexible, has no dead spots, and doesn't require more holes than normal. The selection of middle in series combined with the middle off would have been a dead spot, but I used that as an exception selection of just the middle pickup. And, there's still the possibility of two more push pull pots. There are several ways to do these kinds of selections..........
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maxx
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Post by maxx on Oct 4, 2007 18:12:21 GMT -5
Hi Chris, after having read your last posts for the 100th time I decided I'd give it a shot and try and draw a diagram, using, as a template,a 3 PUs diagram I had found on the web and Microsoft Paint application. Of course, I have failed miserably! Here below is my attempt (I know you're gonna laugh!) As you see after having copied the parallel wiring of the N and B PUs I got stuck at the M PU, not being able to figure out where to connect the Black lead (but I'm not sure of the Red either....) Let alone trying to figure out how to connect for Series! The entire afternoon went by and I got nothing! Not the I had great expectations, but.... I could ask you more questions, but I believe it would take forever Now, to get out of this, I guess there's no other way but you showing me practically "which goes where and why" (if you please, of course) Notice that the diagram has 3 Volumes and 1 Master Tone, I've picked this one because I thought it may be useful to have it so. Also I've replaced all the pots with Push/Pulls (from a similar diagram), in case more than two can be used without getting it too difficult for me to understand Please, if possible use this (or another) diagram, because schematics are very hard to follow to me Here below is the same diagram I've used, but blank (in case even the connection I've copied are wrong! ;D) Thank you very much Maxx
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 5, 2007 20:25:31 GMT -5
The fact that you're using three volumes does complicate things in series.
I have to think about it.
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