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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 14, 2005 17:57:56 GMT -5
I was at the local guitar center the last week. A friend wanted to take another look at a bass he had tried previously. Of course I was glad to go with him ‘cause lets face it, who wants to pass up a trip to the toy store! While he was waiting for a salesman to try to find a particular bass he wanted to see, I wandered over to the vintage guitars. Had a good laugh … a ‘60s telecaster that looked like it had been on 100 road trips and never seen the inside of a case for the meager price of only $4299.95! Worth about $300 in my opinion.
So anyway, looking at some current Fender and Gibson models, a $99.95 price tag caught my eye. It seems Epiphone is now marketing a remake of the old Les Paul Junior model. But now they just call it the Junior.
Looking closer at it some things still looked familiar, others a bit surprising. Just like the old Gibson Les Paul Junior, it’s not a carved top, but a medium thickness slab. Wraparound bridge, flat fretboard. Tuners are way better than the old 3 on a strip open back types, but not even close to the Grover or Schaller copies you see out there. Single OPEN humbucker at the bridge. Body probably made of basswood (its way light for its thickness). And a BOLT-ON neck! MADE IN CHINA. Guess Korean labor is getting too pricey.
It seemed I had found a victim for the evil Dr. Mick’s next set of guitar experiments! And maybe one to keep fairly stock. There were four on the wall, one had a neck twist, two had moderate bow, and one had a mild bow. I was considering buying two, but bought just the one with the mild bow. The bridges on all were set quite high. When I got mine home I found out why. What I hadn’t noticed in the store was that the nut was way high. When I lowered the bridge to a more normal level, the high nut was painfully obvious, When I went to add a 1/8 turn to the truss rod tension to take out a little of the bow. It turned freely for about 3 turns before displaying any resistance. Guess that “set up in the usa by #__ sticker means the guy just made sure the bridge was set high enough to fit with however the neck and nut happened to work out, and within 50 cents on intonation at the 12th fret. The pickup is wired: 1 wire + shield. Even the cavity covers have rough edges.
All that said, Whadya ‘spect fer a hunnet bucks? This ones slated for a bit of fret work, a visit with the nut file, a GFS copy of a badass bridge (no way does it rate the real deal), probably leave the stock tuners. Then out comes Mr. Router. Now do I want two or three humbuckers spaced in strat proportions? Or do I go more heretical, three strat single coils with minimum routing? Or do I want a huge cavity or even a complete through hole with a big pickguard in the front and a cover in the rear? Oh decisions, decisions.
Is it worth $100?
If you want an axe to heavily modify that looks like a Junior and says EPIPHONE on it, and you don’t mind puttin’ some set-up work into, Absolutely!
If you want a budget guitar that’s ready to play right off the shelf, Look elsewhere! There ain’t a lot out there for $100 but you can no doubt still find a no-name that’s much more playable.
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Post by wolf on Sept 14, 2005 22:11:20 GMT -5
unklmickeyGood luck with your experiments. Be sure to let us know what you decided on doing. You act as if an open humbucker is a bad thing. As just about everybody knows, I HATE those sealed for eternity, epoxy-filled, chrome covered "bricks" that Gibson seems to think are great. If you've got open humbuckers you can always put 4 conductor wiring by this method: www.1728.com/guitar1a.htmAs far as $100 guitars go, you definitely are limited. From what I've heard, and this is not my opinion, Epiphone might not be the best choice. (Of course, if you visit any guitar forum, you'll find out that every guitar ever made or ever will be made SUCKS). I've had really good luck with the OLP MM1 and the Saga Guitar Kit, neither of which are going to set you back much.
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 15, 2005 8:04:35 GMT -5
yeah Wolf, bricks do suck. my amazement was that in a guitar that was targeted at retro, they didn't use one. i actually prefer the looks and sound of a covered HB. i just wish all the makers would pot them in wax. oh yeah, and wire them 4 wire + shield/ground. why do i like the looks? guess its kinda like a hot rod with or without a hood. some folks think they look more muscular without. it just makes me feel like somethin's missin'!
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Post by GuyaGuy on Sept 15, 2005 21:06:51 GMT -5
now that CNC is dominating guitar production, you can get a decent guitar for cheaper than ever. $99 is almost ridiculous. i sort of like those guitars that need a bit of tweaking. (my true love, the eastwood guya was like that.) why? i don't feel bad about altering it, swapping parts, etc., plus i can take it and fix her up the way i like it. btw anyone try out those titans? now those are cheap!www.nationalmusicsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=11 |
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Post by RandomHero on Sept 15, 2005 23:04:22 GMT -5
I bought one of those! Hocked it off here on GN, actually, before the hacker took our old board.
The "wood" in it seems to be a sort of playground mulch special, all packed together. I'm almost certain it's just particle plywood. So if you're the kind of guy who values a chunk of mahogany, there may be no better you can do for it in that area.
I've heard varying opinions on the cheapie wraparound bridge. Some say it's got better sustain, some say not. It probably couldn't hurt to get a true TOM and stop tailpiece for it, if you feel like doing a bit of drilling.
Are the frets really that bad? That would be disappointing to hear; the frets on the one I got were immaculate. I was blown away! Figured I got one of the lucky ones. I dropped an EMG-81 in the thing and suddenly the crappy tonewood was no longer an issue. But then an EMG-81 will sound the same in an Ibanez solidbody as it will a Gretsch archtop, if I'm told right.
Good luck with the thing and let us know what you do to it!
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 16, 2005 11:41:59 GMT -5
GuyaGuy,
you're not kidding they're cheap! man, at those prices the only way they wouldn't be a bargain is if they were TOTAL pieces of $#!+.
RandomHero,
i'll keep you guys posted on what i finally decide to do to it as the time approaches (winter project). i've already got 2 guitars with TOMs and stoptails, and i sorta like the idea of a bridge where the strings terminate to the bridge itself. also looks clean and minimalist that way too.
thanks for the info on the body material on yours. somewhere from now to this winter i'll look inside the control cavity again and cut through the paint and or drill a hole to see if my body is wood or wood by-products. that will shape my decision on how radical to get with cavity routing. with all the stress on the two posts of a wraparound, i won't want to get too close to them with the routing ESPECIALLY if it's particle board. i haven't ruled out the possibility of a strat or tele bridge.
hell, i haven't ruled ANYthing out! i'm keeping my mind open to all suggestions. one thing's for sure, it will have budget parts like GFS stuff and will likely be an exercise in heresy.
maybe i'll also get one of those titans (strat copy) that GUYAGUY pointed out and set that up with a TOM and a stoptail. that probably would look pretty strange too!
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Post by GuyaGuy on Sept 16, 2005 17:48:12 GMT -5
GuyaGuy, you're not kidding they're cheap! man, at those prices the only way they wouldn't be a bargain is if they were TOTAL pieces of $#!+. ... maybe i'll also get one of those titans (strat copy) that GUYAGUY pointed out and set that up with a TOM and a stoptail. that probably would look pretty strange too! for good cheapies your best bets are always: agile
jay turser
eastwood
dillionbut i'm thinking that one of those 24-fret jazzmasters would make a nice backup for the time being... reviews on HC and on their forum are occasionally positive but mostly complaints about the company who sells em. sounds like if you buy one expecting to invest a little time and $ it's a decent buy. |
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Post by wolf on Sept 16, 2005 20:43:21 GMT -5
GuyaGuy
You said CNC is dominating guitar production. What is CNC?
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Post by GuyaGuy on Sept 16, 2005 21:14:20 GMT -5
GuyaGuyYou said CNC is dominating guitar production. What is CNC? computer numeric control it's basically routers and plasma cutters that are controlled by a PC. specs in, uitar out! easy peaasy! www.cnc-hobby.com/cnc.html |
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Post by wolf on Sept 16, 2005 22:15:19 GMT -5
GuyaGuy
Thanks for the quick reply.
That is incredible. I don't know if you are familiar with the cheapie guitars of the mid-60's - but they were AWFUL !!!
Strings about 3/8" high at the nut and a bridge adjusted to stratospheric heights. Trying to lower the action resulted in anything beyond the 8th fret hitting on the 22nd fret.
Times sure have changed.
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Post by GuyaGuy on Sept 17, 2005 3:17:23 GMT -5
GuyaGuyThanks for the quick reply. That is incredible. I don't know if you are familiar with the cheapie guitars of the mid-60's - but they were AWFUL !!! Strings about 3/8" high at the nut and a bridge adjusted to stratospheric heights. Trying to lower the action resulted in anything beyond the 8th fret hitting on the 22nd fret. Times sure have changed. oh yeah. in the 60s if you were buying on a budget your choices were slim--for the most part harmonys, kays, teisco del reys, etc. funny thng is, a lot of those were at least partly "handcrafted." unfortunately they didn't know what the hell they were doing in many cases. CNC has opened up all sorts of doors for budget guitars, speeding up the build process AND making the instrument more precise. peavey was the first to intoduce it in the 70s with the T series. what's also funny is that companies like F*nder use CNC-cut necks, give em to a luthier to sand down a fraction of a mm and call that a handmade custom shop. the times, they have a-changed...  |
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Post by RandomHero on Sept 17, 2005 9:02:24 GMT -5
I got ahold of a cheapie Montclair guitar once. I won't say much for it, although there's a lot to the said, but the wordst thing was that the "bridge" was a wooden nut. Not even made of hard wood. It didn't sustain even for a few seconds!
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Post by GuyaGuy on Sept 17, 2005 21:07:50 GMT -5
is that a 60s brand?
i've only seen that on hollowbody guitars like gibbys...
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 19, 2005 8:40:35 GMT -5
I got ahold of a cheapie Montclair guitar once. I won't say much for it, although there's a lot to the said, but the wordst thing was that the "bridge" was a wooden nut. Not even made of hard wood. It didn't sustain even for a few seconds! GuyaGuy, the bridge i've seen on old gibson hollow bodies had a bone insert in what i think was ebony. not a lot of sustain, but not completely horrible either. i think what RandomHero is describing is something entirely more sinister! |
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Post by erikh on Sept 21, 2005 13:27:01 GMT -5
Those LP Junior's are a pretty good steal for the price. Nice and simple. I wouldn't get rid of my LP Standard Plus for one but it would be a nice "experiment" guitar. The Epi's are like any others, you have to play a lot of them to find the right one. I've played high dollor LP's with fret buzz problems and PRS's with setup issues. I've learned what to expect within certain price ranges. Granted, the LP's and PRS's with issues have no excuse, they should be perfect for what they're asking but I'd expect a $100 to have a few flaws here and there.
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 21, 2005 14:15:20 GMT -5
rightfully so, they don't call it a Les Paul Junior in the M.I.C. incarnation. now they just call it Junior. definitely has potential, but lots of warts to deal with. Compared the output vs. a guitar w/ SD uncovered humbuckers (and T.O.M.). Jr. is hotter and brighter!
carved away some paint inside control cavity -- definitely plywood, every other layer is real wood, separated by glue mulch? (thanks for the tip R.H.)
also one of the easiest upgrades is not necessary. no ceramic disc tone cap on this one -- green chiclet.
if i stay with a wraparound, had really good luck with the dirt cheap GFS parts so far, and they have a wraparound w/ adjustable saddles.
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Post by RandomHero on Sept 23, 2005 11:10:35 GMT -5
I've got a Schaller roller bridge, if you've been considering using a Strat-type; it really is a piece. A solid chunk of metal, and there's a little screw in one side that "sets" the saddles; squeezes them all together so they sustain better. There's an additional mounting ring with it to raise it to more TOM-ish heights. I'll let it go for $40, it's $60 new, and mine comes in the box with all original hardware.
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Post by dunkelfalke on Sept 24, 2005 12:33:35 GMT -5
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 26, 2005 14:07:45 GMT -5
those guitars from Thomann look nice, but the Euro being what it is, they're a long way from the ~$100 bracket. probably more than one would want to spend for a creativity victim.
R.H. if you have an other buyer for that bridge, go for it. if not, i may be interested around thanksgiving. i'm still considering all possibilities for mods.
U.M.
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Post by GuyaGuy on Sept 29, 2005 19:37:16 GMT -5
200 euro for a neck-thru tele?  not bad! have you played any harley bentons before, dunkelfalke? i wonder if they're available in the US... |
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Post by dunkelfalke on Sept 30, 2005 15:54:29 GMT -5
i have played only cheapest harley bentons, they sucked. according to much better musicians than me in german music forums that harley benton neck thru tele is a really good guitar (as are the more expensive harley bentons) i suppose thomann would also send to usa. you don't have to pay vat (so the guitar would cost 168 euros), just ask them (info@thomann.de) how much the delivery costs. thomann is a quite an international shop, whole europe orders there  |
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Post by GuyaGuy on Oct 4, 2005 21:19:43 GMT -5
i have played only cheapest harley bentons, they sucked. according to much better musicians than me in german music forums that harley benton neck thru tele is a really good guitar (as are the more expensive harley bentons) i suppose thomann would also send to usa. you don't have to pay vat (so the guitar would cost 168 euros), just ask them (info@thomann.de) how much the delivery costs. thomann is a quite an international shop, whole europe orders there thanks. i'll send em an email. i'm not really in the market for a tele now but maybe in the future... which forums have reviews and such? (ich kann fliessend deutsch, also sind deutsch-sprachige seiten kein problem fuer mich.) |
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Post by dunkelfalke on Oct 7, 2005 4:14:16 GMT -5
wish i could remember. but ask freejazzer (icq 118505358).
afair he has got that tele
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Oct 30, 2005 10:42:42 GMT -5
for good cheapies your best bets are always: agile
jay turser
eastwood
dillionHard to believe that "good" and "cheapie" aren't mutually exclusive terms, but it can happen. I think I've only (very recently) heard of a couple of those, but I did some reading up on Jay Turser awhile back, when I saw an eBay deal for a JT Hawk-12. The reviews were good enough that I decided to grab it. Yeah, it's no Rickenbacker, but I'm quite happy with it. I thought it was pretty low-budget when the company couldn't give me a clue what the three positions of the coil-cut switch are for, but at least after hanging out here for awhile, I could open it up and see for myself. (Or post a pic, knowing that somebody here will probably know what's what.) I thought I was gonna have to ask for a new "Abbreviations and Acronyms" board, but I figured out OLP MM1 (Google search) and TOM. I already knew what CNC does, even if remembering what the letters stand for took me a minute or so. ("One of the first things to go is your memory, and I don't remember what all the other thngs are." ;D ) I think I'll go look over the OLP site. ( www.olpguitars.com/) -- Doug C. |
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Post by eljib on Nov 5, 2005 16:13:24 GMT -5
i'll keep you guys posted on what i finally decide to do to it as the time approaches (winter project). i've already got 2 guitars with TOMs and stoptails, and i sorta like the idea of a bridge where the strings terminate to the bridge itself. also looks clean and minimalist that way too. b]Unklmickey[/b] have you considered using a string thru setup into a TOM? I don't see those too often, and if you're going for "different" that might be a good option. |
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Post by UnklMickey on Nov 7, 2005 18:28:42 GMT -5
hadn't thought about that one. i've heard that it's bad for some reason to have the tail end of the strings against the back of the tuna-matic. but i don't know if there's any real science behind that.
right now the leading candidate is a leo-quan replacement for the wrap-around. nothing new there, but i realized that i don't currently have a guitar with a wrap-around.
i'm gonna have to make a decision soon though. winter approaches.
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Post by Runewalker on Nov 15, 2005 8:34:35 GMT -5
Unk:
"...carved away some paint inside control cavity -- definitely plywood, every other layer is real wood, separated by glue mulch?..."
This is heresy, but I have had excellent luck in challenging the whole 'tonewood" myth, by building up cheapies with those laminated ply bodies. The ply is a dense, stable material, not to confused with lumberyard 4X8 sheets of void filled softwood ply. The guitar materials are typically hardwood, void free ply and the resin gives a stable dense base, which facilitates the coupling of the bridge to base, and minimizes string vibration dissapation. So you can get a ringing stable tone from these things, and it has the added benifit of irritating the purists myth mongers. Frequently in that material the bridge posts are more stable rather than less, since the wood grain is run in layer perpendicular to the other layers. In that kind of mule you are afforded the opportunity to hear the tone of the pups and switching in a more nearly pure state. Is the epi setneck or bolt-on? There are a number of manufacturers (really marketing and distribution brands, since the mfg is in China) that will frequently move seconds, usally minor finish blemishes. I bought an excellent chassis for $81 from a brand marketer named "Winter" that is one of the best base units I have. Its a HSS model slated for GN2 adulterations. RW |
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Post by UnklMickey on Nov 15, 2005 8:59:37 GMT -5
...The ply is a dense, stable material, not to confused with lumberyard 4X8 sheets of void filled softwood ply. The guitar materials are typically hardwood, void free ply and the resin gives a stable dense base, which facilitates the coupling of the bridge to base, and minimizes string vibration dissapation... ...Is the epi setneck or bolt-on?... i think the material in the epi is closer to that lumberyard stuff than the void-free ply that you spoke of it's a bolt-on p.s. thought i'd clarify: probably hardwood on alternate layers. playground mulch layers aren't any better than (maybe worse than) softwood with voids. structurally suspect, but it's loud acoustically. a friend mentioned something about a gibson "sonex" with a multi-ply material. |
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shovel
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Post by shovel on Dec 21, 2005 9:27:33 GMT -5
I have kind of a Cheepo guitar fetish.Most of em just need to be set up rite.I just cant justify paying 1.000 for an axe.When I see a guitar for around $100,I start to get the sweats.I'd rather have 6 cheep guitars than 1 high priced one
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stratovani
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Post by stratovani on Dec 21, 2005 19:44:09 GMT -5
I bought an Epi LP Junior at my local GC (Manchester, CT) a couple of weeks ago. They had three of them for sale and I tried each one plugged into a Crate amp (forgot what model it was). I took the best one, which had no finish flaws but a bit of a high action. When I got home, I lowered the bridge a little, installed a fresh set of D'Addario XL 9-42s, and fired her up. The action is good, intonation is solid, she's a great little player for the money. The fret ends were a little sharp so I took a small file to them and now they're nice and smooth. Cleaned up the fretboard with some lemon oil and she's good to go. It's a lot of guitar for $99.00, and the design is simplicity itself. I'm a happy camper!
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not bad!
