Crate Vintage Club 30 Problems

[sumgai]

tim,

That part you linked should work just fine.

The footswitch jack is the usual run-of-the-mill garden-variety piece of junk. If you can possibly see your way to it, remove the jack from the pcb, and install a Switchcraft panel jack instead. Hook up wires as appropriate, and what you've got will out-live you! And yes, all you need is a mono version. It's pretty much a wash between using stereo or mono jacks, when they're this cheap. If the manufacturer needs a stereo jack anywhere else in the system, they'll just use them everywhere. Saves on the cost of ordering and stocking two different parts, let alone trying to tell the 6th-grade-educated parts installers which one goes where.....

HTH



sumgai

[timwaldvogel]

i know its been a few months since my post. but i have not fixed my amplifer yet.

i have been looking for cheaper opto isolators since i just want to use the clean channel and will not be switching amp channels in a live situation or anytning. i just want to stop the volume spikes. i have heard that a NSL-32 opto isolator might work. or a NSL-32r2. has anybody had any experience with replacing and\substituting these in place of the vtl5c3's?

[fretsandstrings]

I have a Crate Vintage Club 30 and I have no sound. All tubes are lit the fuse seems to be intact but nothing. Plugged it in last tuesday and it made a slight popping noise with a little bit of noise then just fadded and it hasnt worked since. i hooked it to a different speaker with the same results. was curious if any one knew any trouble shooting tips i could use.

[sumgai]

Tim,

I've not personally used those NSL-32's, but they look like they'd be OK. The cost is reasonable, so what the hey, might as well go for the gusto! ;D


~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~

f & s,

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!


If you've read the preceding couple of pages, I'm sure you'll understand when I say that there only two major possibilities here: bad tube(s) or bad optoisolator(s). Either one will get you a "no sound" condition. But there are a couple of minor glitches too, so pay attention for awhile.

Me personally? I'd check the tubes first - by far the easiest thing to do! Simply unplug one at a time, and substitute in a known good tube of the same kind. No change? Do it again with the next tube in line. (You can put the old tube back in before moving on to the next one.) When all the tubes have been changed out and you're till SOL, then I'd try the footswitch jack. This is something I'd label as a minor issue, but it's not as easy to test as tubes. Fortunately, it is cheaper to replace, if such need be.

When those two things are done, and it's still a DOA case, then it's time to flex your diagnostic powers. Here is another minor issue to look at before we dig in to checking the opto-goodies. Get out your meter and take a look at the power supply voltages. If there's no power to the OI's, then they aren't gonna turn on, and henceforth there will be a deafening silence. This doesn't happen often, but one shouldn't bypass the obvious....

Only after those three steps (beyond the very obvious, checking the fuse and that all the tubes are lit up) should you get down to checking/replacing the optoisolators themselves. I say that even though experience tells me (as it does many other repairpersons) that it's most likely the little buggers that are causing your heartburn.

Take all that for what it's worth, and good luck!

HTH




sumgai







(EDITed to fix a minor spelling error.)

[fretsandstrings]

Another question for you sumgai, my effects loop hasn't worked since i purchased the amp used. I have tried every y adapter i can get my hands on and still no go. would replacing the jack be the issue and how difficult would that be.

[sumgai]

f & s,

My question back to you is, what do you mean by "the effects loop doesn't work, and never has"? Specificially, I want to know if the signal is present at the speakers without anything plugged into the Effects jack, and more specifically, does that signal get cut off when you do plug in a cable?

Or is the difficulty more complex than that?



sumgai

[fretsandstrings]

I have a single jack that says effects loop and when i try to use a y cable with a delay peda the Signal cuts out totally, however i can plug my guitar straight into the effects loop jack and it works.

[cynical1]

One Jack? Every amp I had with an effect loop had an IN and OUT.

HTC1

[sumgai]

c1,

The Crate Vintage series has only a single TRS jack doing both duties.

~!~!~!~!~


f & s,

Well, that's good to know, thanks.

OK, as I perceive it, your jack is not sending out the signal that it should, on the Ring connector. Take a look at the schematic:

www.blueguitar.org/new/schem/misc_amp/crate_vc3112pow.gif

(Linked separately, due to the size of that image.)

See where the incoming signal (at the lower left) is forked, and sent to the small plug/jack connector on the main circuit board? From pin 4, it goes to the Tip connector, and on that jack is a switch that says: "when unplugged, send the signal back out to the main power amp" (on pin 1 of the board connector). However, said incoming signal also goes to a single transistor buffer circuit, and thence out on the Ring connector of the jack.

This buffer has the necessary -10vDC applied, or else all of the optoisolators would be off, and you'd get no sound at all. So far, so good. Now, note that there's a circle with the words "TP12". In the upper right corner of the diagram, there's a chart that tells you what each Test Point should be reading, both on your meter and on an oscilloscope, where appropriate. Take a meter reading, and see what you find there. I'm thinking that one of two things has happened: one of the components around that transistor has gone bad, or else there's a bad solder joint¹ that's not making a connection. Or it could be several bad solder joints.... not to mention that both conditons could exist - bad joints and bad components.

In any event, this buffer is 99% sure of being your problem. If you have a 'scope, that's your best bet for quickly diagnosing the issue - does the signal waveform appear at TP12? If not, check to see that C47 hasn't opened up, causing Q7's collector to go to ground, thus swamping the signal into oblivion.

And yes, the jack could still be the problem, but you've already used a "Y" cord adapter, which is what's needed here. The fact that it's a Tip/Ring/Sleeve jack means that the Ring connector should be putting out a signal, if the buffer is working. Unless you've hooked everything up backwards (during each and every test), then I'd say that the jack is probably OK.



Report back with your test results, please.

HTH



sumgai

1 - Often during the manufacture of these things, the soldering machine would not quite get all of the connections "just right". If you find even just one single joint that's suspicious (or is obviously bad), then do yourself a favor and re-heat up all the connections around it. Eventually more of them are gonna go bad, you might as well stave off the problem now, eh?

[vostok4]

Hey everyone, long time lurker first time poster. I thought I'd ask here for some help with my amp since Google finds this thread nicely and it might be good to keep adding to the awesome information here.

My issue is that my volume knobs on my amp are extremely, _extremely_ sensitive, and I'm pretty sure my Channel B (Dirty) knob is malfunctioning.

The way it looks is if I go from about 1 to 1.5 on the dirty channel, the sound goes from super quiet to CRAZYOMGLOUD. On the clean channel its much smoother, but it still gets quite loud rather fast (this could be just because at 30W tube amp is loud).

Does this sound like a broken/dirty pot? Should I just replace both (and if so what brand/make is recommended?) Generally speaking, should you be able to play these amps at anything higher than 2-3 in an apartment? I've already been toying with the idea of a Weber MiniMASS to take out some of the volume before the speaker.

Thanks!
Matt

[sumgai]

Matt,

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!

The chances of more than one pot going bad in the same way, and at the same time, are pretty slim. Could happen, but I wouldn't make any book on it.

So your question left me scratching my head. When you say you turn up a control on the Dirty channel, and it goes gawd-awful loud, which control is that, specifically? I ask, because you say that the Clean channel does just about the same thing, only not quite as "quickly" (I take that to mean, there's more range between "not quite loud enough" and "way too bleepin' loud!", compared to the Dirty channel).

If the main Volume control for each channel does the "blast 'em out" trick, then the problem lays in the power amp section. If only one channel has the issue, then we need to concentrate right there, in the pre-amp of that channel.

BTW, using a power-absorbtion device of some sort may not be a dumb idea - these amps are capable of setting off earthquake seismic detectors, they can easily get that loud!

HTH




sumgai

[jonindc]

I am a first time caller. I bought a used Vintage Club 30. It is my first tube amp and it has been great except: after 20 minutes or so the clean channel goes out. It fades in and out at first and then is gone. It switches over automatically to the dirty channel. I have been reading the guitarnutz posts and there seems to be alot pointing to the opto-isolators. (I have a foot switch so I've confirmed it is not that. I haven't looked at the effects loop jack yet. I'm good with a soldering iron and I've located them on the circuit board. My concerns are: 1)how do I spec the replacement parts and 2) how do i safely discharge current from the capacitors (or anything else that could do me or the amp harm.)
Thanks.
Jon in DC

[sumgai]

Jon,


Welcome to the NutzHouse! ;D

Your description definitely points towards one or more optoisolators.... although it's still a good idea to make sure the jacks work like they're supposed to...

All of this repair work takes place in the pre-amp section, so you aren't likely to be leaning your elbow into a power-supply filter capacitor. That said, you're correct, it's always a good idea to 'bleed off' those filters, just to be safe. Do this:

1) Get a hunka fairly hefty wire, or if you don't have any loose stuff near to hand, just use your least-favorite screwdriver.

2) Secure one end of your freshly procurred conductor to ground. Just be sure that you aren't the clamping tool to ensure contact! That job really belongs to a non-Human device, trust me. Just laying it across the lip of the chassis is poor, but in a pinch, if you've got no other way to make contact with ground.....

3) Holding the remaining end with a pair of insulated pliers, or a similar tool, make contact with the 'hot' end of each filter cap. (That would be the ungrounded end, regardless of polarity.) You should see/hear/feel a spark as contact is made*. Letting off, then making repeated contacts, there should be no additional sparking - the caps should be fully discharged by now.

4) Under nearly any imaginable circumstances, your amp should be safe to dig around in now. Bear in mind that as soon as I say that, you (personally) will be the very first person to prove me wrong. Take all this with a grain of salt, and keep one hand in your pocket at all times!!

I can't stress that enough - don't become the 'alternate, albeit unintended, conductor'. Until you've been jolted a couple of times, you'll have to rely on what the rest of us (survivors) are telling you - it ain't no picnic, lying on the floor with a busted arm/rib/back, nursing a seriously burnt hole in your skin... possibly more than one such.

Now, having said all that, if you're gonna measure voltages, that means that there's live voltage in there, and some of it is Hot, with a capital H. So now's the time to trot out my favorite quote from this Forum's most esteemed, and missed, member, ChrisK by name. He said, and I blockquote:

Someone is always the fuse - make sure it ain't you!

IOW, watch where you're putting your hands, and any other parts of your body you've enlisted as aids to troubleshooting inside of that amp's chassis. Plan ahead where you're gonna reach into next, each and every step of the way.

And as another friend of mine once said "Failing to plan is exactly the same thing as planning to fail!" 'Nuff said.

HTH




sumgai


* Filter caps (or other caps of very large capacitance values) can retain a charge for a long time, up to several months. Yes it decreases as time goes on, but do you really want to trust that the cap is "empty", just because it's been weeks/months since the last time power was applied? Again, trust me - always bleed those filters before going anywhere else - your skin, your health care provider, even your wife, they'll all thank me for this advise! ;D

[jonindc]

Thanks for that detailed reply Sumgai! Two questions: Is the best way to check the effects loop jack to get a Y-cable and wire in an effects box. Also, to order the opto-isolators, do I spec them as "four pin VTL5C3?"

Thanks again. I'm excited to get out the solder and gun.

[stratoblaster]

New to the forum . Looks like alot of good advice, and tech here.
Just picked up a used VC3112. So far none of the concerns found here, have found me ! My only complaint is that the clean channel, is not all that clean. I also own a 1983 Rivera Concert 112. THAT is clean. I was hoping this Crate would be somewhere close to as nice and crisp, simply for the fact that it weighs about 20 lbs less. Is there something I could look for. It sounds absolutely great, until the volume goes over 4. Then it starts to get dirtier than I would like. I dont mind it when the Strat is plugged in, but with the Tele, its just not right.
Any help appreciated.
Oh, all stock but the speaker. Previous owner installed an Eminence Delta Pro 12 A.
Thanks in advance. (I hope)

[stratoblaster]

Hmmmmmm........ Anyway, Thanks for nothing ! There seemed to be a lot of info and knowledge in this thread on this amp ? I guess it doesnt pay to be the new guy, HUH ?
Guess I can find another forum where someone can actually give me an answer, or even acknowledge my inquiry.

I wont be back.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 13, 2011 15:50:22 GMT -5 stratoblaster said:

Hmmmmmm........ Anyway, Thanks for nothing ! There seemed to be a lot of info and knowledge in this thread on this amp ? I guess it doesnt pay to be the new guy, HUH ?
Guess I can find another forum where someone can actually give me an answer, or even acknowledge my inquiry.

I wont be back.

I'm not a moderator or an admin on this board, just another user.

You seem frustrated. For that, you have my condolences. As for the 'tude about being mistreated because you are "the new guy", I think you're over-reacting.

This is a message board. The people who post here aren't part of Crate customer service. This is not your tax dollars at work. Just a bunch of guys who like guitars and who enjoy talking to each other.

When you ask for technical help, sometimes you're lucky enough that a member of the forum knows enough to help you. But sometimes those people aren't online much. Or they might overlook a thread. It happens.

As far as you not coming back, I have no feelings on the matter one way or the other. You haven't posted in any of the other conversations. So I have no way of knowing whether you have an interesting personality. Maybe we've lost someone who would have contributed a lot of ideas and opinions. Or maybe you would have just got the info you needed and left.

If you change your mind and decide to come back, I don't think anyone will hold a grudge against your little outburst. But whether you come back here or try to get help from another source, I do have some advice.

It makes more sense to start a new thread, rather than tagging on to an old one when your problems are not the same as the original thread.

You might want to find other conversations on the forum that interest you. Participate in those discussions. That will begin to establish yourself as a member of the community. That goes a long way in motivating people to help you.

Regardless of where go, I wish you the best of luck.

[sumgai]

reTread,

The more I see, the more I like how you handle things when the going gets tough. Thanks for covering for both newey and I.

---

stratoblaster,

(And I know you're lurking. )

As noted, sometimes things go bump in the night. But there's more to the story here, so pull up a chair and let me fill you in.

This Forum has been on the web since April of 2005. I've been a member since December of that year, with a few months of time-out for bad behavior. (What can I say, the debbil made me do it!) Of all the nearly 2,000 people who have gone through our doors, only a handful have been here as long as I, or longer. Which then means....

This is not my Forum, nor anyone else's personal Forum. It's not for me to act like a big-shot know-it-all, and jump in every time there's a technical question. In other words, I'm not the only frog in this particular pond, and if I wanna get along with the other members here, then I'd better share and share alike. Meaning further, I let others take the lead where they can, and fill in only when necessary.

Take a look around here, you'll see that most of my stuff in the past few years (not just months or weeks) has been frivolous, off-the-wall, incongruent, and in short, all but helpful. Just make sure you mark that adjective - most - as on occasion I do contribute something meaningful. Not when it suits me, but when the community needs it. That's my way of sharing, what's yours?

---

But like reTread, I can let flare-ups roll off my back, so here's your answer:

Crate's VC series were well designed, in my opinion. However, there are some things that need looking after. In order of ease, and somewhat the cheapest first:

1) You've already tried another guitar, and found some differences, but not enough to make you think it's guitar itself. Good show, that's the best first test.

2) Plug in a different speaker. Even a closed cab will still give you an idea whether or not you're on the right track. No spare sitting under the bed? Borrow one from a friend. Last option - drag your amp into your local guitar store, and see if they'll let you use a floor cab for testing purposes. (They may want assurances that your amp is not gonna toast their speaker(s), be prepared for that.)

3) The next thing you should do is check each tube, starting with the pre-amps (for each channel), and work your way towards the power-amp bottles. Replace them one with a known good working substitute, and see what happens. Important: Do this one tube at a time, testing after each substitution! Sometimes it's handy to have two or three spare tubes, just to see if the tone is affected (hopefully for the better).

4) Check your power supply voltages. There's a chart on the schematic showing you what voltage should be on the pins of each tube. If the readings are more than 20% off, then you've found a very likely source of your "dirt". As a matter of habit, when doing this portion, I always start with the biasing circuit first, that's often the culprit, though certainly not 100% of the time. EVEN MORE IMPORTANT: Life-threatinging voltages are present! If you're not comfortable doing this kind of thing, seek qualified help. If you have a meter and know how to use it, great. Just remember one thing - keep at least one hand in a pants pocket at all times! Better safe than sorry.

When all that's been accomplished, and if you're still scratching your scalp, let me know. PM me if you want, I'll answer sooner, for sure.

HTH




sumgai

[meganotes]

I have a crate VC50 2x12. I have read this entire post and its been a welth of info.
My amp has all the classic symtoms of the opto's and/or the footswitch/effects loop jack.

Here is my story.
Took this amp as a trade for some other gear I knew it had issues before hand. Had some old mismatched tubes for power and old preamp tubes.
when you first turned it on it would power up both channels worked footswitch jack functioned. After 10 minutes or so I would get a snap,crackel,pop at any volume.
So took it to amp tech locally and had it serviced board cleaned inspected, detected, injected...ect. (thanks arlo)
all pots cleaned, new set of Electro Harmonix EL84's (matched quad) New JJ's 12AX7.

Board looked good some heated areas on the board nothing alarming no swollen or bleeding caps.
No loose connections or joints. Amp was put through its paces the tubes were burned in. all seemed well the amp was solid.

Until the next day...
I powered it up to find that my clean channel was kind of dead.
I say kind of b/c I can hear a distorted signal very faint and I have no volume control on that channel. in fact when I turn the volume up I hear a bump and scratchy sound through speakers when I pass 2 on the volume.

I have not tried the tube switch yet with a known working one but plan to do that today.
I do want to however replace the footswitch and effects loop jack since they seem to be problematic.
I see where to get the optpisolators on ebay but another source thats cheaper that anyone knows of would be great too.

Also does anyone know the part # or what the jack style type of the footswitch and effects loop and where I can procure the parts at?
Im rounding up parts to take it back to amp tech to replace.

Thanks In Advance

[newey]

Meganotes-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

I don't have the answers to any of this, I'm just the greeter here. Sumgai is the go-to guy on this, which you know already from the history of this thread.

Sumgai will be by in due time, but it may be a few days, so hang tight.

[sumgai]

^^^^ No, I'm here now, but wouldn't you know it, the other half is putting the arm on my time, so I'll make it quick.

---

meggy,

Welcome to the NutzHouse!


The jacks for these are designed to mount to the circuit board, and then that whole assembly is bolted into the chassis. What I do is procure a Switchcraft switching jack (sorry, don't have the exact part number off-hand, and the wife is starting to look Mt. Vesuvius....), mount it to the chassis hole, solder in some long, thin wires from the jack to the circuit board, and then mount the board back up in place. This gives you quality and yet it can still be serviced. Costs more, but still not quite as much as a Monster Cable.

HTH





sumgai

[meganotes]

Thanks for the greeting! The footswitch and effects loop jack
I found these a couple places. Here are the links just so someone else might find there way to this excellent thread for Crate Vintage Club Amps on this amazing board.

www.cedist.com/products/jacks_plugs?page=ALL&sort=recommended

www.amprepairparts.com/jacks.htm

I was surprised that the cases on this thread of malfunction/repair of persons posted only 1 person I believe posted their results.

Ill post some pics of my repair at every stage. I dont know how it will turn out as I am over budget on this amp and very frustrated with it. A chainsaw through the center of it might be the conclusion. MY OWN VERSION OF SLICED!!!

...And Sum thanks for a reply guy. Listen as far as your wifey I would hate to see you buried under tons of rock and ash like the people of Pompeii.

Later Fellas ;D