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Post by ChrisK on Mar 17, 2009 19:43:50 GMT -5
Well, pickups are pickups. Parallel OOP (POOP) is still a somewhat crappy sound.
One is more likely to find a humbucker in parallel out of phase with a single coil more interesting (and audible).
I like SOOP better.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 18, 2009 8:33:50 GMT -5
Bit of an update: I got the switches yesterday and had some fun last night working out where everything was going to go. They've got a pretty small radius, so I'll be able to fit one in the LP selector position with few problems (if my wiring's neat - and that's a big IF). However, I'd forgotten how tight it was in the main compartment. I did some trials with a piece of cardboard cut and rolled to the same dimensions as the switch. The active circuitry is on a board fixed to the back plate, which doesn't leave me enough height for the 2 tier switch. Anyway after much thinking through the options - buying a plastic 1 tier 3 way switch was top of the list, followed by scrapping the active circuitry - I remembered a trick I'd read about. The guitar has the jack socket on the front, which goes through a nice 1/4"+ hole. The socket itself is quite big, and is placed in a spot with more headroom than most of the cavity. So I took out the socket, and - unbelievably - the switch fits in perfectly, as though it was made for it. The back closes up, job's a good'un. All I have to do is persuade my local luthier to carve a hole big enough for the jack socket into the side of guitar and find a curved metal plate to go over it. The whole thing should look a LOT neater than my original layout, so I'm pretty happy at this point. My next thing to do is to practice soldering neatly - the lugs on those switches are very close together.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 20, 2009 19:00:07 GMT -5
Some Pics and stuff: First the finalised circuit diagram: You'll see I've added a couple of things: The 3-way is now a 4-way. I've added the option for SC Neck and Series Bridge, giving me a total of 22 sounds with 2 switches. I've also added a capacitor sub-system. The capacitor goes in series with the bridge pickup, but only in when it's in Parallel, OOP with the neck. Switch 3 is a DIP switch that goes inside the switch compartment. The idea is I can test if i like the capacitor in or out. The resistor is to stop the cap popping. (I don't know if I'll do the subsystem or not - it depends if I can be a**ed after doing all the rest of the wiring.) Here's the switch options (with S3 OFF):
| 4P3T switch | Series | Parallel | Single Coil | Series and Single Coil | 4P6T switch |
| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Neck alone | 1 | A*B | A+B | A | A | Both in series, in phase | 2 | (A*B)*(C*D) | (A+B)*(C+D) | A*D | A*(C*D) | Both in series, Out of phase | 3 | (A*B)*[C*D] | (A+B)*[C+D] | A*[C] | A*[C*D] | Both in parallel, out of phase | 4 | (A*B)+([C*D]*cap) | (A+B)+([C+D]*cap) | A+([C]*cap) | A+([C*D]*cap) | both in parallel in phase | 5 | (A*B)+(C*D) | (A+B)+(C+D) | A+D | A+(C*D) | Bridge alone | 6 | C*D | C+D | D | C*D |
Here's the wiring diagram: The concentric blue circles are supposed to indicate the decks on the switches. Now some photos of the guitar: here's the front, as it is now: You can see the hole where the jack plug went - this is where the 4-way switch goes. The 6-way goes where the pickup selector toggle switch is. You might notice that the pickups are different colours. The black one is a Bare Knuckles Painkiller. Sadly while I was converting my original pickups from 2 core, I screwed one up badly. Expensive lesson. The black one is deliberately upside down - the screws are at the neck side. That's because the polarity of the magnets is opposite to my remaining original. I wanted the 2 outer coils to be in use when the single cols were in phase. As far as I know the only way to do that is to have the magnets the same way round. And now, will the faint hearted please turn away: it's the dog's dinner; the spaghetti on steriods; the cludge of cables! I've taken a series of photos of this. Not to put on my wall. I just know that when I get the guitar back from being hacked carved there will be a wire or two astray. hopefully I'll be able to work out what goes where from this.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 22, 2009 15:08:25 GMT -5
I started wiring up the 6 way switch today,and immediately hit a snag.
I'm not good enough at soldering.
Or rather, my design had 2 wires on each lug of the switch, which is beyond me, even with my newly purchased "helping hands".
So I've changed the wiring diagram in the previous post so only one wire goes to each lug.
I took the opportunity to fix the numbering on the switches, which was teh wrong way round, and I've also colour coded the wires.
Wires from the pickups are their real colours, as are wires in the 4-core which connects the 2 main switches. Otherwise, black goes to live and magenta goes to earth. there are 2 "hubs" one red, one green (sorry if you're colourblind). Yellows are just jump leads.
I'll admit, that as far as codes are concerned, it's less Morse code - an international standard designed to aid communication - and more Enigma - obfuscated, complex, and requires a computer to decypher it. ;D
Anyway those helping hands were the best purchase I could have made - they included a biggish magnifying glass. I had expected not to use it, but in fact I'd have gone crosseyed if I hadn't had it.
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 22, 2009 16:54:35 GMT -5
I don't know if this helps or is against best practice or whatever, but I've found that it helps to actually wrap and sort of tie off the wires on the lugs before soldering. I usually strip a significant length of the end of the wire, so I've got plenty to work with. It can be cut later if necessary. If two or more wires go to the same lug, twist them all together. Then, if there are holes in the lugs, jam the wires through there and twist them around the lugs and back on themselves. I'll do this for as many of the components at one time as practical.
This is difficult with pre-tinned wire, since it won't be flexible, but it works fine for me without tinning. Sort of goes along with the idea that a good physical connection makes a good electrical connection, and it really helps me with my congenitally shakey hands to keep the wires still while trying to solder. It does make it a little difficult to unsolder, but if you do it right the first time...
HTH
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 22, 2009 17:32:28 GMT -5
Thanks for that tip. My problem is that the holes in the lugs are so small i couldn't get 2 twisted wires through - tinned or not.
They're also very close together, which makes wrapping them round the lugs difficult - especially the common connections. I'll give it a try when I do the second switch.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 22, 2009 20:37:13 GMT -5
I'll admit, that as far as codes are concerned, it's less Morse code - an international standard designed to aid communication - and more Enigma - obfuscated, complex, and requires a computer to decypher it. ;D Plus 1 for coming so soon to a complete understanding about what The Nutz House is all about! You certainly made me .... Seriously, are you using any particular website as a guide for learning how to solder? Or perhaps a book? sumgai
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 23, 2009 4:54:51 GMT -5
not really - apart from a course i did at the University of Life. I've done bits and pieces over the years, but nothing really on this scale or precision.
I had a long look at a couple of books in a bookshop on Saturday, to see if there was anything else I needed technique-wise, but I think I just need practice!
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 27, 2009 8:00:31 GMT -5
I wired up the 4-way switch last night, taking ashcatlt's advice about leaving a longer bare end on the wire, not tinning it and wrapping it round. It was a LOT easier that way.
I'm not sure i'd be able to join 2 wires, so the 1 wire per lug model still seems best, though I've yet to work out the best way to join 7 or more wires together. Will probably involve a big lump of solder!
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Post by ChrisK on Mar 27, 2009 18:13:59 GMT -5
It's called a wire crimp ring terminal.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 28, 2009 12:54:07 GMT -5
With some trepidation I googled this, and the results were less dodgy than i was expecting So is the idea I stick all 7 wires (for instance) into one of these: www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=42711and crimp them together? no solder required?
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 28, 2009 13:43:01 GMT -5
That'd work great. Don't forget to tape it up so's it don't short nothin'.
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Post by ChrisK on Mar 28, 2009 19:04:58 GMT -5
Or, one could solder the wires to the ring section and tape it up.
One could also mount the crimp section to something that is connected to the circuit node (such as a common ground or signal return node) and solder the wires to the ring section.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Mar 31, 2009 16:46:06 GMT -5
OK, I'm bored. I'm waiting for my guitar to come back, and they say it wont be back for another week and a half. So I put this together for fun: the ultimate xerobucker! It uses 2 6-way rotaries to give 32 unique combinations. All combinations with an even number of pickups are humbucking. You can select outer or inner coils. And I WONT be building it! Here's the table of options | Pickup Mode switch | Both Series | Both Parallel | Neck Single Coil / Bridge Series | Neck Series /Bridge Single Coil | Outer Coils | Inner Coils | System switch | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Neck alone | 1 | A*B | A+B | A | A*B | A | B | Both in series, in phase | 2 | (A*B)*(C*D) | (A+B)*(C+D) | A*(C*D) | (A*B)*D | A*D | B*C | Both in series, Out of phase | 3 | (A*B)*[C*D] | (A+B)*[C+D] | A*[C*D] | (A*B)*[C] | A*[C] | B*[D] | Both in parallel, out of phase | 4 | (A*B)+([C*D]*cap) | (A+B)+([C+D]*cap) | A+([C*D]*cap) | (A*B)+([D]*cap) | A+([C]*cap) | B+([D]*cap) | both in parallel in phase | 5 | (A*B)+(C*D) | (A+B)+(C+D) | A+(C*D) | (A*B)+D | A+D | B+C | Bridge alone | 6 | C*D | C+D | C*D | D | D | C |
I was going to say that there aren't any pickups hanging from hot, but I think I've spotted a couple of positions ( S1=4 or 5 and S2=1) which are. Which is a killer, and I've going to have to go back and look at the design I've been working on, 'cause i think them same problem exists there too.
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Post by newey on Mar 31, 2009 18:26:56 GMT -5
A: B: Looks like a pretty good cure for boredom to me, you should have at it. In case you didn't see it, ChrisK's PRS Rotobucker is worth a look. He gets fewer combos than your scheme, but they're the most usable ones and all humbucking. He also discusses the addition of phase options as well. And his design only contemplates a single rotary, albeit a large one (12 positions X 4 poles)
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Apr 5, 2009 12:26:44 GMT -5
I've looked at my current design and, yes, it does have a position hanging off hot - the single coil neck positions, which, again was one of my "target" sounds. It's one few combinations that are duplicated, and only one of the versions has the problem, so I might get away with it. I've put together diagrams which fix the issue, but the downside is that I'll have to add another shielded cable between the pickup selector cavity and the main one. That means I'll have to take out the pickups AGAIN, which I'm trying to avoid. And change the wiring on one of the switches I've already soldered. here's the amended diagrams, anyway... (wiring diagram updated)
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on May 28, 2009 8:21:32 GMT -5
An update I got my guitar back, complete with new hole a few weeks ago, not done anything to it because of holiday (walking the Coast to Coast path if you're interested) and a subsequent week of laziness Last night I finally got the guitar out, and started working out which pickup wire goes where. The main problem is that I rewired one of the pickups myself, about 18 months ago, and I've no idea which cable went where. The other pickup is a Bare Knuckles Painkiller, which has a standard colour scheme for its leads, I just needed to find out how the phasing of this related to the old one. So I spent the evening connecting my guitar to my amp via a load of test leads, trying out various combinations to find which were OOP, and which coils are being activated. This is the first time in a LONG time that i've got to play this guitar, and it did feel good. I'd almost forgotten how good it is. Also it's the first time I've heard the Painkiller, which seems to have a bit more edge than the old (broken) one. Once I got things going, however, I noticed that the differences between the sounds was nowhere near as big as I expected. Single Coil sounds were as I expected, and the "combination that dare not show its face" - everything in series - was as beefy as I expected. But the OOP sounds didn't have that "hollow" sound I was looking for. I (as an experiment) tried my bridge pickup OOP with itself, expecting it to be practically silent, but instead i actually got a reasonably usable sound. If this is all the benefit I'm going to get from all the changes, I'll be pretty hacked off. I'd have been far better getting a set of batteries, or working on another way of getting 9v to the guitar (maybe via the cable?) I can think of a number of reasons why this might be: 1. the strings I've got on it are really, really old, and dull. Perhaps a new set would highlight differences in higher frequencies? 2. My previous experience with OOP sounds was with my first electric (an Aria Pro II), which had LP-type electronics plus a OOP switch and a single coil switch. I hoped i'd get the same kind of sounds. However there were a couple of differences which may be more important than I thought: the Aria had a bolt-on neck, and the pickups were the same as each other. Also it's possible that the switch did more than just put the pickups OOP (even if i looked I wouldn't have understood the wiring) - but I doubt it. It's also been 15-odd years since I had that guitar, so my memory of the sound may have been exaggerated over time. 3. I've only been playing a strat copy in the last 18 months, so I've maybe got used to the single coil sound in that time. The stock humbuckers on this guitar were hot, and that Painkiller is possibly hotter still. 4. I've not adjusted the height of the pickups so the output is matched. Anyway, the next steps are to: phase 1 change the wiring diagram to reflect the real colours coming from the pickups modify the switch wiring as mentioned in the previous post take the strings and pickups back off again, to install the extra shielded lead I need going from the position switch to the pickup mode switch. connect up each of the switches & jack socket fix the pickups back on again, and restring with new strings. connect the pickups err, fix all the glitches phase 2 try to get the pre-existing active electronics to work again! A couple of wire have come unstuck over time, I'll have to work out where they went.
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Post by JohnH on May 29, 2009 1:57:20 GMT -5
The sound changes you get from all the freaky GN2 settings are all about changing the ratios of the various harmonics, and its those that get dulled right down if you are testing with duff old strings.
If you want to test further what the coils are doing, the screwdriver pull off test is great, if you have an old analog meter. Set it to the most sensitive voltage setting and put it across the guitar output with max volume. Place scredriver tip flat on a pup pole and lift up quickly. The needle jumps if the coil is active, and whether it jumps up or down will let you know the relative phase in relation to other pups which are active in that setting. It takes the guess work out, because if two active coils cause a needle jump in the same direction, then they are in phase.
Other effects: The various sounds are most distinct with a cord that dulls less treble - ie a shortish (say 10') one. Or an active buffer, which is the best thing for stopping series sounds from getting dull sounding.
John
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on May 29, 2009 3:18:46 GMT -5
hmm, Thanks John - I'll see if i can try that test before I wire it up. It sounds like it should be more reliable than my "well it sounds a bit thinner, so it must be OOP" test. I've got a very old analog meter, though I haven't had it working in years. I suppose the other thing i should double check is that the combinations actually are hum cancelling.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Jun 4, 2009 8:01:51 GMT -5
That pull-off test worked perfectly, and confirmed what I'd done by ear - and with a lot less guesswork. I noticed on the bottom of my meter that it was last calibrated (probably at time of manufacture) in September 1978. I thought this was neat, given that my guitar was born 2 months later.
I had a check of my diagrams last night, and spotted an inconsistency in the wiring diagram. Two of the leads going to common on the left hand switch were the wrong way round.
I've also swapped some of the colours of the interface cables (the 5 wires + earth which go between the switch void and the main control void) around. the wire leading to the volume control (previously black) is now on the single core wire (cyan) i added. I changed them round because the volume control is in a completely different part of the cavity from the right hand switch. It doesn't really matter, but I'm happier!
I've not posted the fixed version up here yet, but will do over the coming period.
Also the crimping idea to join those wiring nodes together seems to be perfect. I did a couple of tests on some spare wire. It should take very little space up in what will become a very crowded void. I may even have space for that capacitor after all.
I could probably put strings back on again now, as I shouldn't need to pull out the pickups again. However, I've thought that before, and here I am, with the strings back off yet again, again.
Don't know if I mentioned the soldering iron stand I'm using? It's a Hendrick's Gin bottle I emptied. Apart from doing the job - it's heavy, with a big, wide base so it won't topple - it looks good, and is just a touch rakish. I'm sure there's an allusion to Jimi Hendrix in there too, but I haven't worked out the details on that one...
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Post by D2o on Jun 4, 2009 11:43:08 GMT -5
Don't know if I mentioned the soldering iron stand I'm using? It's a Hendrick's Gin bottle I emptied. Apart from doing the job - it's heavy, with a big, wide base so it won't topple - it looks good, and is just a touch rakish. I'm sure there's an allusion to Jimi Hendrix in there too, but I haven't worked out the details on that one... What an unusual site they have ... I even subscribed to their newsletter ...
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Jun 5, 2009 4:07:12 GMT -5
lol - i've not looked at the website, just drink the stuff occasionally (though it does tend to be in large, brimming glasses)
Put together the selector switch (left hand one on the wiring diagram) last night. Tried crimping those leads together, but it wasn't really happening, despite the success of the test run i did previously. the leads pulled out or broke, and it was a bit of a mess. In the end I just twisted the bare wires, gripped them in a croc-clip and added plenty of solder. Seems to have done the trick.
Although my wiring diagram is multicoloured so I could read it properly, I just used black wire to each of the switch connectors. I regretted that last night as I was going crosseyed picking out each lead and following it from the connector to it's end. Checking was a real pain too. In hindsight, I'd have used different colours of wire to make things clearer.
I don't know whether it would have been better to have used the colours in my diagram, or coded it something like: odd numbered top layer black even top layer red odd bottom layer white even bottom layer green and a different colour for common.
Using the diagram colours would be the obvious choice, but given that the diagram has changed since I attached the wires, I'd have had to rewire the switches, or deal with a mess that would have been even more confusing.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Jun 6, 2009 7:07:46 GMT -5
Wired up the pickup mode switch last night, and optimistically fixed them into the body. Boy those wires take up a lot of space. I wanted to leave plenty of slack to allow for inevitable c k-ups, but now have to squash everything into the cavity. Tried it out this morning - I'm sure my neighbours REALLY love me - and it's pretty good. I can confirm that SOOP is, as previously intimated by Chris, better than POOP. however, I've pretty much decided to take that capacitor out of the poop loop. I'd prefer the thinner sound in my pallette, rather than another medium one. Single coils sounds are nice and bright. The new pick up is sounding nice and edgy, the stock one in the neck is smooth and sleek. There are a couple of hiccups, though. The bridge pickup doesn't work when it's in parallel mode, it just hums. Dodgy connection to the S1 switch i think is likely to be the issue. Other thing is that when then pickups go into series-either in or out of phase - I get an louder hum than with the other pickup combinations. Not worked that one out,yet, though remember this is with all shields down - the back isn't on yet!
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Jun 7, 2009 8:04:16 GMT -5
I've sorted that bug out - i'd got 2 of the leads the wrong way round. while working that out I broke another connection, and had to find that too. But the switches are all done now, and seem to work. Knobs all attached etc. That buzz is still there though, and i'm a bit concerned. The guitar isn't finished - the back's off, and the switches are not wired into the volume control, active circuitry or the jack socket. The earth and live are simplycoming out the back, through a couple of test leads and onto the jack plug of a lead. So, not much shielding. It get a lot worse, unusable in fact, when I put the guitar in SOOP or SIP. Importantly, it goes away when i touch one of the earths inside the cavity , or the earth on the guitar lead. do any of you experienced hands know if this is likely to be simply a case of the live not being sheilded, and it'll all be ok when the guitar is back in one piece, or is there something wrong somewhere, and I need to investigate before going any further? if i need to investigate, i'm not sure what to check - any suggestions?
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Post by JohnH on Jun 7, 2009 16:04:53 GMT -5
I think those hums you describe could all be normal, for a test rigged guitar with leads somewhat dangling. If you find that touching a grounded item kills the hum , and not in a way that could happen to be also joining a bad connection, then Id say its as expected. Particularly, once you ground the strings via the bridge, you will then be grounded, and the more compact shielded wiring will also help.
You noted that the buzz is worst in series mode, both in and out of phase. Hum cancelling series modes generally seem to have a bit more residual buzz than similar parallel ones, but not a problematic amount. What you could consider though, is whether your design is providing you with optimum humcancelling. I havent checked, but for your SIP modes, you would like to have a north and a south coil if there are just two coils, or two similar polarity coils for SOOP.
John
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Post by xeroks on Jun 8, 2009 3:32:48 GMT -5
Finished! Hooray! I was beginning to think i'd never get to plug this thing in and play it. To remind you - here's how it started (sort of - both pickups were cream): And here's the finished article: Note the new matching controls and the newly positioned jack socket. You may be able to make out the bespoke position markers around the selector switch if you zoom in. Amazingly useful stuff, that insulating tape... The last part of the job - fixing the preexisting electronics, and linking my new switches - was actually pretty easy, thanks to a photo I found taken years ago when the guitar worked. The buzz i was worried about seems to have vanished, (you were right John) which is great, and the active tone controls work perfectly. In the end I left that capacitor in the POOP circuit, as i found it gave me rather beautiful sounds when the pickups are in parallel or single coil. So both SOOP and PHOOP are better than POOP. Actually it's exactly the kind of sound i was looking for when i started, so that was good. I'd like to thank everyone on this site who contributed to the design, both in terms of posts to this thread and to others, where many of the elements of this project came from. It quite simply wouldn't have been as good. Would I do it again? Don't know. Between the new hardware and equipment i had to buy, i probably spent as much as the guitar originally cost. It would have been cheaper to just buy lots of batteries, and be content with what I had. However, between all those lovely new sounds, and everything I learned along the way, I think it's been worth it. To finish for the moment, here are before and after photos of the insides of my guitar. I'll leave it for you to decide which is which.
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Post by xeroks on Jun 11, 2009 6:59:20 GMT -5
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 11, 2009 10:53:16 GMT -5
So you went with PHOOP (parallel half-out-of-phase) anyway? It usually sounds better than POOP. Acronym'oniously, that is.
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xeroks
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Post by xeroks on Jun 11, 2009 14:36:40 GMT -5
yes, and I didn't need to put the resistor in - I'm not getting any popping or clicking worthy of mention.
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