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Post by wolf on Apr 20, 2009 13:33:42 GMT -5
eadgberYes, even guitar rewiring can get to be expensive. Anyway, I'd think you've learned about the two types of DPDT on/on/on switch but if you go here: www.1728.com/guitar.htmand scroll down about a third of the way, you can read a little more about it. (Oh that's my website). I am not 100% sure about the last diagram I posted but I'm guessing that others have double checked it. Good luck with the project.
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 20, 2009 18:39:56 GMT -5
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 22, 2009 5:19:47 GMT -5
I'm seeing the difference in the on/on/on's . I emailed Stewmac to ask which type the one they have is sence it dosen't say on the item page. They didn't excatly answer the question direct, but that's probably because I didn't ask it right. Very fast n friendly anyway. They sent a couple links. www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Misc/i-4000.htmlwww.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Color_codes/i-gibson.htmlIt looks like that 1st link is showing what I need & the 2nd shows an on/on/on series / coil-cut / parallel on one switch, SO I'd have to assume the one they are selling is the same & will do this too. Small world Wolf. I've been to your site more than once in the past.Very usefull info. Makes me want get into the Strat world.
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 22, 2009 11:49:36 GMT -5
Most likely, they don't know. The true test, of course, is to measure the switch switching states when you get them. Use your digital multi-meter. One should not do guitar wiring or any troubleshooting without one. I always measure every component before I use it. Bad components are a lot easier to replace before they're installed! Incorrect wiring is easier to correct before it's wired. Make a record of what you discern for every component. Put this in a file for every design. After all, YOU might have to support your design in the future. Your first link shows only the index to the help sections. Based on the last drawing that you posted, eadgber, SW1 and SW2 are DP3T Center-ON (DPDT ON-ON-ON three position) switches (#1223 or #1224) and SW3 is a DPDT two position switch (#1219 or #1220), all from StewMac.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 23, 2009 5:44:09 GMT -5
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Post by ChrisK on Apr 23, 2009 12:12:32 GMT -5
Uh, er, ok. Now, the reason that I posted the link to my Electronics Templates was to show that exact representation of that exact switch. In fact, it shows the state logic of pretty much every mini-toggle switch available. Both you and I show the bottom (wiring side) view.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 23, 2009 15:20:19 GMT -5
Just wanted to make sure I was looking at what you were showing. The minute I start trusting myself, we're all in trouble.
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Post by wolf on Apr 25, 2009 22:31:49 GMT -5
I think I made a mistake in drawing the circuit that's been the topic of this thread. (My drawing is towards the bottom of page 2). The circuit will work just fine but I think the way I have it wired, the circuit will not be humbucking when both coil cuts are activated. Referring to the diagram above, the dashed blue lines indicate which terminals are conducting when the switch is in the middle ("coil cut") position. Looking at figure A (neck pickup), we can see that the coil with the Red and Black wires is active during coil cut. Looking at figure B (bridge pickup), the wires have been connected in what I call an "inside-out" type of wiring. When you are using an SPST switch and grounding the coil cut connection, the "green and white" wire coil will be the active coil. However, as I recently discovered, when using a DPDT on/on/on switch, the coil that remains active is still the one with the red and black wires. In order to wire it so that the "green and white" coil is active I came up with diagram C. And if that is correct, then this newly redrawn diagram should be the one that will be humbucking when both coils are split.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Apr 27, 2009 4:07:49 GMT -5
Thanks Wolf, OK this is the one I'll print out & use when I start.
I've really been trying to understand it all too (using to learn also). It's those pickup windings I do not get. I don't want to shoot this tread off into basic pickup talk or anything but I do have questions.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not at all questioning any of the help here. I'm just not getting it.
This last diagram is wired so that my adjustable poles are the active coils in Tap mode right? The only reason I ask is that I did the test with my meter and screw driver taps to find which leads belong the which coil. If I did things right then: Black & Red belong to the non-adjustable coils. White & Blue(green) to adjustable pole pieces. Same on both PU's.
Do I have a set of crazy wired PU's here? Just trying to understand and thanks again!
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Post by newey on Apr 27, 2009 5:49:24 GMT -5
That depends on your particular pickups. Which wire colors go to the slug coil vs. the adjustable coil varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. You've done the test to determine this, and yes, it looks like wolf's diagram C does just that.
Well, they're Ibanez. They do tend to do things a little diffferently.
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Post by wolf on Apr 27, 2009 17:41:08 GMT -5
The reason I even discovered that mistake is that I was writing a page about coil cut for my website and I wanted to make sure about using a DPDT on/on/on switch for coil cut. Anyway, since the slug coil question has raised its head once again, I'm wondering is there that much difference in sound when comparing the slug coil to the screw coil? Yes, I know it is blasphemous but it is something that has to be resolved. I know there is quite a difference when a humbucker is mounted at the bridge and which coil is active when the coil cut switch is thrown.
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yaux0005
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Post by yaux0005 on May 4, 2009 15:13:42 GMT -5
I too wonder about this. I agree about the bridge pu, but that makes a lot of sense considering nodes, frequencies/overtones, string displacement, and pole piece location. Presumably the string displacement / harmonic frequencies are much more similar among the two neck coils than they are among the two bridge coils. And we cannot forget that when the neck screw coil is under the 24th fret there are natural harmonics that have a node at that precise location. (Little to no string displacement + local phase canceling across ONE coil) Someone hand me a scatter-wound, please.
What inherent differences exist between slug and screw coils, regardless of location along the string? Slugs height is flat across the strings while screws may or may not be. Physical construction is different. I suppose on some level, however minute, the orientation of the flathead slot makes some small, insignificant but real difference--or does symmetry compensate for that? Obviously screw pole pieces adjusted for height will result in different frequency response than slug pole pieces. But then what about hex heads? Jeez. Or how about parallel axis pieces? Too much.
And an afterthought: PRS seems to believe that "inside" coils and "outside" coils are worth dedicated switch real estate. Not "left" coils and "right" coils. I surmise from this that single coil interaction between two tapped humbuckers is affected by location along the string to the extent that alternating the neck tap alongside the bridge tap accentuates nuances.
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Post by wolf on May 4, 2009 18:34:55 GMT -5
Actually, I just finished another guitar page at my website: www.1728.com/guitar7.htmand it is about coil cut switching. Now that I think of it, there are some things I should add to it, but it's almost complete now. It mentions about wiring a guitar so that either the 'inside' or the 'outside' coils are active.
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Post by ChrisK on May 4, 2009 19:05:55 GMT -5
Yes. Yes. Hold that thought. To what avail? Yep, different is. The coils also have different inductance due to the different types and ferrous mass(es) therein. They are. Well, that would be grandiose but, slug coil to slug coil and screw coil to screw coil, hum cancellation is. Let go of that thought now. All of the precise string locations for the pickup coils go out the window when one realizes that the sensing window is wider than just the pole pieces (the other "end" of each magnetic field and the various structures), and then the operator goes and violates all these theories by fretting the strings. (The "24th fret" isn't stationary, but relative.)
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yaux0005
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Post by yaux0005 on May 5, 2009 2:21:33 GMT -5
I mention scatterwound in jest, it was a lame attempt at humor. A perfectly wound coil would be perfectly symmetrical. An imperfectly wound coil would be imperfectly symmetrical? Bear with me now while I enter into flights of fancy. Imagine a coil wound tighter on one side than another... more copper on one side than another... asymmetry. I don't presume to assert that scatterwound is unbalanced in a similar fashion, but it very well may be depending on the manner of the scatter, no?
With respect to the 24th fret thing, I'm talking in particular about open string 5th fret harmonic. I.e. pluck a harmonic with your finger resting lightly over the fifth fret on the otherwise open string. I feel this is relevant considering the 12th, 7th and 5th fret natural harmonics on the dgb strings simultaneously are quite commonly employed.
24th fret = 1st harmonic even order 2n 7th fret = 2nd harmonic odd order 3n 5th fret = 3rd harmonic even order 4n IIRC the precise location along the string is approximately but not exactly at the fret location. Damn tempered scale.
I know you know what I'm talking about. Play that fifth fret natural harmonic with the bridge only, then with the neck only (neck screw coil tapped). A neck HB tapped for screw coil with its skewed magnetic field results in asymmetry giving more output, less canceling when compared with a true single coil. But put a perfect single coil under there and get the harmonic right and you get (next to) nothing. Kudos for pointing out the off-center HB magnetic field, I forgot about that entirely =).
This thread makes me want to file a patent for a coil with tighter windings on one side but with an off center magnet to compensate. What good would that be? I have no idea, but hey marketing points sell otherwise mediocre products.
Grandiose indeed but I labor to argue that the biggest difference to the ear is likely inside vs outside and not left vs right selections. Insides have more frequency response in common while outsides have less in common. Then again maybe it's just peas and carrots anyway you cut it. Slug to slug and screw to screw notwithstanding, pole type selection IMO falls secondary to hum canceling. Just happens to be convention and aesthetically pleasing to keep those screw coils "outside". If they aren't RWRP then flip one around already and rewire it a la Wolf's "inside out"! Wait no, that would put the screw pole pieces in the wrong spot--back to where we started.
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yaux0005
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Post by yaux0005 on May 5, 2009 3:06:58 GMT -5
Wolf I checked out the new page and you describe the theory behind the wiring really well. Putting a phase switch before the DPDT on-on-on, allows either coil to be tapped when only using one pickup. But if you use two pickups, don't you end up getting out of phase sounds by phasing to select the "other coil"?
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Post by ashcatlt on May 5, 2009 10:16:47 GMT -5
Wolf I checked out the new page and you describe the theory behind the wiring really well. Putting a phase switch before the DPDT on-on-on, allows either coil to be tapped when only using one pickup. But if you use two pickups, don't you end up getting out of phase sounds by phasing to select the "other coil"? You're right about that. Of cousre, if you had a phase switch for both... Wolf's (very good) article does leave out the fact that we can accomplish coil cut just as easily by connecting the "middle wires" to hot. This leads to the idea of using an ON-OFF-ON type switch to allow coil selection without (or independent of) polarity reversal.
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yaux0005
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Post by yaux0005 on May 5, 2009 16:20:57 GMT -5
But the dreaded hanging-from-hot happens with middle-to-hot tapping, no? Hanging from hot is one of those things with which I find I must reserve judgment. I have done it in the past and recently because of design limitations but of course we all try to avoid it as much as possible, right?
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Post by wolf on May 5, 2009 18:15:30 GMT -5
yaux0005 and ashcatltThanks for the good words about my new website page. I could be wrong but I don't think a phase switch would allow coil cut selection when used with a DPDT on/on/on switch. It's something else I should put on that page huh? As far as the 'hanging from hot' dilemma, I don't think there is anything wrong with it provided you are working with a pickup that has separate wires for both the + and - connections as well as a separate ground. Okay just for simplicity, I drew a very simple diagram: That should produce no problem if the pickup is wired like the top diagram, but if you are using a chrome-covered, epoxy-filled, sealed for eternity "brick" that Gibson loves to manufacture, I'd say there would be hum problems when you switched off the negative side which is actually the cable braid.
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Post by newey on May 5, 2009 18:17:39 GMT -5
Yes, I think most here would agree with you that the jury, as it's said, is still out on that. My feeling (and that's all it is) is that, in some configurations, it may not generate noise, but that in others, depending on what other electrical structures are around, in and out of the guitar, it may make a difference in noise levels.
So, if it can be avoided, it should be, on first principles.
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Post by ChrisK on May 5, 2009 19:25:19 GMT -5
Yes, you can. However, it takes some more polerization. I do it for both humbuckers pre-intra-pickup coil selection in The BuckerBlender. QED
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Post by ashcatlt on May 5, 2009 22:59:27 GMT -5
But the dreaded hanging-from-hot happens with middle-to-hot tapping, no? No. "Hanging from hot" is when the the "hot" end of the pickup is connected, but the "ground" end is not, thus hanging. In this case, the "ground" side of the pickup is connected. Some folks are afraid that this form of shunting can cause some tone issues, but I don't know why that might be. Seems to me that a shunt is a shunt. The signal return is only incidentally a ground, and the electrons have to pass by that shorted coil one way or the other.
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yaux0005
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Post by yaux0005 on May 5, 2009 23:10:40 GMT -5
If I get this all, when you tie the middle two together and then want to get either coil, you can either shunt the middle to ground to get the hot side coil or oh yes shunt the hot side to the middle to get the ground side coil. I see my problem now I was just being simple minded there. Whoops! Sorry guys! Two different kinds of shunts. I worry about the purity of a shunted coil not directly tied to ground with these low impedances and parasitic capacitances. But not too much ;D
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Post by ChrisK on May 6, 2009 12:09:28 GMT -5
My perspective on shorted coils is as follows: A pickup is an electrical generator. It produces an AC output voltage and current depending on its load. This production of output power requires energy which comes from the string movement. The more output power is consumed in the load, the more input energy is consumed. Shorting a coil (you can call it a shunt if you like, but it's a short) presents the internal impedance of the coil as its sole load. For most single coil pickups this is about 5K to 8K. Placing parallel resistances (loads) across a pickup will attenuate the harmonics noticeably, but also the overall output level. This is where the advice of using a 500K pot instead of a 250K pot to "brighten up" a guitar comes from. 250K pots are common whereas 100K pots are considered "dark". While we are not listening to the shorted pickup (although it should be hum-free ), like any generator, the more that you load it the more that it loads the input energy source. As a result, the sustain (kinetic energy) of the string(s) must be diminished faster as more loading is applied. I have listened to a bridge pickup on a sustained note thru a PA system (fidelity) while toggling the shorting of a galvanically unrelated neck pick up on and off, and can hear a discernable difference in harmonics and tone. There is a condition called "Strat'itus" where the magnetic pull of the pickup pole pieces can cause non-harmonically related output artifacts. In a real sense, shorting pickup coils causes a varying "Stat'itus" effect. If one plays clean, thru a clean amp, one likely will hear this and care. If one makes "cole slaw" all the day long, they likely won't.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 6, 2009 12:35:19 GMT -5
Ahhh! Now I remember. I'm sure I've seen you say that before. Flingin' Conservation of Energy!
I can't speak to this phenomenon. I haven't missed anything on either of the guitars I own which employ coil shorting, but I haven't really looked for it.
Anyway, this should be true no matter which "direction" you choose to short the coil.
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yaux0005
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Post by yaux0005 on May 7, 2009 23:27:10 GMT -5
Ditto. Always the problem I had with Newtonian physics (side note). Are we considering factor X or using a simplified model... and then proceeding to miss factor Y which is relevant to the model. Shucks.
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Jun 16, 2009 2:22:59 GMT -5
I finally have my two on/on/on switches for this new wiring job. Hopefully I'll be starting soon. I been side tracked because everything around here is breaking. Car's timing-belt, Mower pulley & starter and now my freezer won't freeze. I got a question already. This might be a stupid one too. The switching design we were talking about earlier of the on/on/on's. Is that the back view ( as you see it while soldering ) I had assumed it was and if so then I have a kind of inverted version. I tested on ohmmeter and the ones I have are like this: I just want to make sure first.I'm sure they'd still work but it's really going to make my head spin if they are different. THANKS
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Post by newey on Jun 16, 2009 5:40:06 GMT -5
The convention is to show components from the back, as you would be soldering them. All the diagrams to which you refer are, I presume, from the rear.
You did the right thing- checking yours with the meter. Now you're at the point where your diagram has to interface with the real world. So mark your switch, if it doesn't have some sort of landmark on its body already, and transpose the diagram to match what you've got.
You don't have to worry about switches that are bilaterally symmetrical, but these ones aren't.
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 16, 2009 11:57:59 GMT -5
eadgber, What! You tested a component before you used it? Mein Gott, what is this world coming to. I shall anti-smite you for your bravery. Could you post the manufacturer of your switches? If you don't know, can you post some digital pics of the logo on them? Maybe I can determine the manufacturer and we could add this to our reference data. Do you have to worry about switches that are unilaterally asymmetrical?
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eadgber
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Post by eadgber on Jun 17, 2009 0:22:24 GMT -5
Could't get a decent picture but says " MTS - 2 " on one side & other side is amp rating. 3A 250VAC / 6A 125VAC I got then from an Ebay seller in Canada but it's a drop ship deal. They came straight from Hong Kong.
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