Wiring help please

[outris]

Finished the wiring and put the guitar back together tonight....while holding my breath and keeping my fingers crossed, I plugged it in. (tough to do all at the same time )

The good news is I get sound in all 5 lever positions, with the DPDT switch in either position. So I start breathing normally again. For the most part it's also very quiet now.

The not so good news is in certain positions I am still getting a bit of hum, mostly when the strings are vibrating, but also apparent when not playing. Hum decreases as I move away from the amp.
With the DPDT switch in the DOWN position, the noise is apparent in position 2 and position 4 of the 5 way.

With the DPDT in the UP position the noise is prominent in positions 1, 3, and 5 (more prominent in 3 and 5, assuming 1 is closest to the bottom of the guitar)

I fully shielded the cavity, and checked for continuity before replacing the wired pickguard. The pickguard is also shielded.

I did not use shielded cable for the input jack, since that space is shielded with foil as well. I grounded the tremolo claw to the shield via washer screwed into the pickup cavity.

I also placed some electrical tape in the spots where I suspected any wire might make contact with the shielding.

Any ideas where/how I can possibly identify the cause?

[sumgai]

outtie,

Your humming problem is a bit odd, indeed.

Normally, when two pickups (or two coils within a Humbucker) are connected in series or in parallel, the resultant hum level should be the same - if it gets reduced when in series, then it should also be reduced when parallel. (Of course, this can happen only if one coil is RWRP with respect to the other coil.)

Two questions: Are you sure that the pickups you think are selected in a given position truly the ones that are selected? If you're not sure, tap each pup with a screwdriver to be sure it's on or off, for each switch position. Caution - don't have the amp turned up more than normal for this test!

The other question is, what happens to your sound in the problem positions as you rotate the Tone control?





sumgai

[ashcatlt]

The other other question is: (how) does the hum change when you touch the strings/bridge/other metal parts?

[outris]

Ok...I must have screwed something up somewhere . Will need to take the pickguard off and check the wiring again. Here's what I am seeing:
1) The Volume Pot is not working to control volume. It seems to be acting as another Tone Pot. When turned counter-clockwise, the highs are dampened but the hum seems to disappear. Possibly a Bad Pot? I have an older volume pot I could try if that is a suspect.

2) With regard to the which pickups are active in each lever position, I tapped each pickup with screwdriver as suggested:
- Assume 5-way Lever Position 1 is the bottom, Position 5 towards top of guitar.
- DPDT Switch Position 1 is up, position 2 is down.

With switch in up position
Lever Position
1 = N
2 = N, M
3 = M
4 = N, M, B
5 = B

Switch in DOWN position
1 = N, M
2 = N
3 = N, M
4 = N, B
5 = M, B

So, I assume I need to concentrate on fixing the volume pot issue first, then tackle the result of that fix? Suggestions welcome..

[sumgai]

outris,

No, I'd go the reverse - I'd double check the switch wiring first, because what you just laid out is not what your diagram calls for, let alone your original specification.

In the switch-down position, where the Middle is in series with whatever's chosen by the 5-way, you don't have that Middle pup in the 2 or 4 positions - that's seemingly impossible, considering the results on positions 1, 3 and 5, but none-the-less, you should re-check your findings. If you get the same results as above, then you need to look closely at your switch - it may not be 100% operational (it may have a fault or two.....). That would cause your hum issues as described several posts back.

Standing by.......






sumgai

[outris]

Checked the pickups again and same results as my last post. Gonna remove the pickguard and check the wiring. I did buy another DPDT switch today, so if the wiring checks out, I suppose I need to try the new switch.

With switch in up position
Lever Position
1 = N
2 = N, M
3 = M
4 = N, M, B
5 = B

Switch in DOWN position
1 = N, M
2 = N
3 = N, M
4 = N, B
5 = M, B

[ChrisK]

While one can tell if a pickup is active by pole tapping, one cannot tell the inter-pickup wiring structure.

While I have no patience to sus out the pickup inter-mingling aboot in your 5-way switch (both poles have shorting effects as well as pickup selection effects), I would suggest that this be done.


For a short-cut way of "seeing" what is amiss and a'muck, I would propose that you replace each pickup with a binary multiple fixed resistor.

Bridge 1 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in parallel)
Middle 2K Ohms (one 2 K Ohms)
Neck 4 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in series)

This can be realized with 5 resistors, coincidently the number in a pack of 5 from Radio Shack.

Buy 1% resistors if you can.

One can then easily determine the inter-pickup wiring structure from simple resistance measurements at the output jack. Ensure that the volume and tone pots are all at their full clockwise rotation.

Two (or more) resistances in series add, two (or more) resistances in parallel are related like this; Series and Parallel Components.

I do this to initially check out EVERY wiring effort that I do. Simple is.

[outris]

ChrisK, thanks for the suggestions. Methinks I may be out of my league 'cause I really don't understand how to do what you've outlined.

I did check out the wiring again and all seems to match the diagram. I also re-checked the pickups via pole tapping with the pickguard removed from the cavity, in case something was shorting against the shielding, but same results.

I'm considering just trying the standard strat wiring, just to see if I can get that to work, then move on from there.

[ChrisK]

Methinks I may be out of my league 'cause I really don't understand how to do what you've outlined.

Ok, now pay attention.

I would propose that you replace each pickup with a binary multiple fixed resistor.

Buy 1% resistors if you can. Buy nothing worse than 5% tolerance resistors.

Bridge 1 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in parallel)
Solder two 2 K resistors in parallel and connect them where the bridge pickup's two wires went (remove the bridge pickups wires from the switching circuit).

Middle 2K Ohms (one 2 K Ohms)
Solder one 2 K resistor to where the middle pickup's two wires went (remove the middle pickups wires from the switching circuit).

Neck 4 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in series)
Solder two 2 K resistors in series and connect them where the neck pickup's two wires went (remove the neck pickups wires from the switching circuit).

If you measure 6 K Ohms at the output jack, the middle and neck pickups are in series. If you measure 1K33 Ohms at the output jack, the middle and neck pickups are in parallel.

One can easily determine which pickups are selected, and in what structure with this test approach.

If you measure the resistance at the output jack with all volume and tone pots at full clockwise rotation and post the readings, we can trivially ascertain which pickups are selected, and in what structure.


I do this to initially check out EVERY wiring effort that I do. Simple is.

I'm considering just trying the standard strat wiring, just to see if I can get that to work.

[outris]

Haven't given up yet ;D. Your extra detail helps a lot. I also just talked with a buddy of mine at work who has a background in this sort of work and he understands better than I, so I'll get some guidance from him as well.

Thanks!

[ashcatlt]

Sept 8, 2009 22:28:28 GMT -5 outris said:

1) The Volume Pot is not working to control volume. It seems to be acting as another Tone Pot. When turned counter-clockwise, the highs are dampened but the hum seems to disappear. Possibly a Bad Pot? I have an older volume pot I could try if that is a suspect.

I suspect a poor ground connection on this pot. It's possible that it just doesn't go all the way to 0 (because it's defective), but you'd still hear some overall volume reduction in the range above 0.

Oh, it might also be wired backwards. Isn't counterclockwise usually "toward 10"?

2) With regard to the which pickups are active in each lever position, I tapped each pickup with screwdriver as suggested:
- Assume 5-way Lever Position 1 is the bottom, Position 5 towards top of guitar.

This begs the question, "Which end is Up?" If you consider the neck to be the "top of the guitar", then you need to turn your 5-way around 180 degrees. If you've got enough slack wire, you won't even have to re-solder anything.

With switch in up position
Lever Position
1 = N
2 = N, M
3 = M
4 = N, M, B
5 = B

Switch in DOWN position
1 = N, M
2 = N
3 = N, M
4 = N, B
5 = M, B

Looking at the last diagram posted in this thread - and assuming that you've wired the DPDT so that when it is in what you are calling the "DOWN" position it connects the commons to the upper lugs - it seems to be doing exactly what it's supposed to.

I still think it's a good idea to measure the resistances in each switch position. If you're going to go through what ChrisK has asked, you'll be disconnecting the pickups from the circuit. That would present a perfect opportunity to measure the DC resistance of pickups themselves.

[gitpiddler]

outris, nice diagram. starting to sound like the signal returns (grounds) are mixing with 'star' shield ground. they should be separate except AT the jack. i'm not sure at the moment (tired) how to remedy the diagram, but that's my philosophy on it in general.
good luck to y'all, and keep that in mind.
git out.

[outris]

ChrisK, I picked up some 2.2k, 5% tolerance resistors today at Radio Shack. I hooked everything up and pulled the readings below. I also took Askcatlt's advice and reversed the 5 way lever so that position 1 is now toward the top of the guitar (neck), and position 5 is pointing toward the bottom (bridge).

Switch DOWN readings at jack...

1 = 3.26
2 = 0.87
3 = 6.50
4 = 4.34
5 = 6.50

Switch UP readings at jack...

1 = 1.09
2 = 0.62
3 = 2.17
4 = 1.45
5 = 4.33


I also checked the readings on the pickups directly and got the following:

Neck = 5.9
Middle = 6.5
Bridge = 6.5

This matches or is very close to what is indicated on the pickup specs from the dealer.
Hope this helps decipher what's going on.

[ashcatlt]

Sept 10, 2009 22:19:41 GMT -5 outris said:

Switch DOWN readings at jack...

1 = 3.26
2 = 0.87
3 = 6.50
4 = 4.34
5 = 6.50

Switch UP readings at jack...

1 = 1.09
2 = 0.62
3 = 2.17
4 = 1.45
5 = 4.33

This is much more definitive than the tap test. It seems (I think, I checked twice, but I encourage you to check yourself) to yield:
DOWN
1 = N*M (* means series)
2 = N+B (+ is parallel)
3 = M*B
4 = B
5 = M*B
UP
1 = N
2 = N+M+B
3 = M
4 = M+B
5 = B

This is not exactly what your posts above indicate, nor what your wiring diagram should make happen. Are you sure you wired the resistors exactly where you had the pickups?

[sumgai]

ash,

I think you've reversed the pickup labels. Chris specified (no less than twice) that the Bridge use two resistors in parallel, and the Neck use two resistors in series.


outris,

After checking out all the readings, I'm inclined to believe that either your switch has super powers - it can arbitrarily deliver some combination other than what we expect, or else you've mis-wired that puppy. Did you perchance suffer from a Senior Moment, and connect Pole 1/terminal 1 to Pole 2/terminal 3, instead of terminals 1 and 2? (Which may have played a role in how ash chose his labeling nomenclature.)



sumgai

[ashcatlt]

Sept 11, 2009 2:54:37 GMT -5 sumgai said:

ash,

I think you've reversed the pickup labels. Chris specified (no less than twice) that the Bridge use two resistors in parallel, and the Neck use two resistors in series.

I see that now. In this case, our friend outris has either wired it backwards, or changed his numbering on us.

Luckily, I can fix it by replacing my N's with B's and vice versa:
DOWN
1 = B*M (* means series)
2 = B+N (+ is parallel)
3 = M*N
4 = N
5 = M*N
UP
1 = B
2 = B+M+N
3 = M
4 = M+N
5 = N

This is exactly what the tap test gave (only upside down from the way it was presented) and what that last wiring diagram does. So good news! It's wired correctly. Was this not what you wanted?

[sumgai]

ash,

Yes, but I think there's still a fly in the ointment... Position 2/Down is supposed to be (B+N)*M, not just B+N. It should not read as 0.87KΩ, it should be much closer to 3.04KΩ.

Further, Position 4 is a shorting position between the two terminals that have the Neck connected to 'em. Shouldn't Position 4/Down read exactly the same as Positions 3/Down and 5/Down?

Given these factors, I think we're close to spotting the error here, wouldn't you agree? And yes, it does seem like outris probably didn't cross-wire the two poles. Which is why I think the switch itself bears close scrutiny. It may be that the shorting element on one of the two wipers isn't making a correct contact......


outris,

Inspect your switch very closely and carefully - use a magnifying glass if you have to. Probe around (with a non-conductive tool) and press the various contacts against the wiper, as you move through the selections. The problem almost has to be the switch itself..... although Mr. Murphy may be lurking in the background, so I won't "guarantee" that statement.

HTH




sumgai

[ashcatlt]

Sept 11, 2009 12:34:19 GMT -5 sumgai said:

ash,

Yes, but I think there's still a fly in the ointment... Position 2/Down is supposed to be (B+N)*M, not just B+N.

Supposed to be (according to who?), but it's not. It's impossible when the M is shorted.

Further, Position 4 is a shorting position between the two terminals that have the Neck connected to 'em. Shouldn't Position 4/Down read exactly the same as Positions 3/Down and 5/Down?

M is shorted again.

I'm getting a little confused since the numbering keeps changing, and since it's a toggle (down position means upper lugs) rather than a P/P.

[outris]

Sorry for the confusion everyone. Hope this helps clear it up.

[ChrisK]

While I have no patience to sus out the pickup inter-mingling aboot in your 5-way switch (both poles have shorting effects as well as pickup selection effects), I would suggest that this be done.

I had no interest in doing this, but things have wandered somewhat. While I sat back as I watched these proceedings, I saw that I indeed had to sus out the pickup inter-mingling aboot in your 5-way switch (both poles have shorting effects as well as pickup selection effects).

For a short-cut way of "seeing" what is amiss and a'muck, I would propose that you replace each pickup with a binary multiple fixed resistor.

Bridge 1 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in parallel)
Middle 2K Ohms (one 2 K Ohms)
Neck 4 K Ohms (two 2 K Ohms in series)

Thanks for doing this test as it exactly proves what is selected and in what structure.


Now, for the bad news.

Based on the last drawing posted in reply #27, the following selections will occur.

DPDT switch poles connected downward on the drawing;
1 N
1&2 N+M
2 M
2&3 B+M+N
3 B

DPDT switch poles connected upward on the drawing;
1 N*M
1&2 N
2 N*M
2&3 N+B
3 M*B

Translating these to the latest measurement list results in response #48;

DPDT switch poles connected one way;
5 N
4 N+M
3 M
2 B+M+N
1 B

DPDT switch poles connected the other way;
5 N*M
4 N
3 N*M
2 N+B
1 M*B

The actual resistance measurements indicate the following (pole numbering and gravity are irrelevant as they are mere symmetry issues);

DPDT switch poles connected one way;
4K33=N
1K45=N+M
2K17=M
0K62=B+M+N
1K09=B

DPDT switch poles connected the other way;
6K50=N*M
4K34=N
6K50=N*M
0K87=N+B
3K26=M*B


The design does exactly what it is supposed to do.

It may not do what one wants it to do, or thought that it would do, but reality always rules (and sometimes bites).

[ashcatlt]

Sept 11, 2009 20:54:11 GMT -5 ChrisK said:

The design does exactly what it is supposed to do.

It may not do what one wants it to do, or thought that it would do, but reality always rules (and sometimes bites).

That's what she said...err...what I said.

[outris]

Well...I'll take satisfaction that
1) my wiring is working
2) it is working as designed in the diagram (i think)
3) I am getting the 2 combinations I wanted from Wolf's original design, that being N*M and M*B
4) I actually learned a little bit about how this stuff works and progressed to Apprentice Shielder
5) I lost some hair and burned my hand.

...wait.. scratch number 5.

I'll proceed with wiring this back up and let you know what happens. Throughout all this I have also been refinishing the guitar, so once done, I'll post some pics.

Thank you all!

[ChrisK]

tedfixxThis design from our archives uses the standard Fender 5-way lever switch and a DPDT switch to realize the combinations noted. Use the last drawing in the initial post.

3 Single Coils and The "S-None Switch".

With the addition of a simple wire, using The FREE Neck On Switch, one can realize all three pickups on in the parallel mode. In the series mode, one can realize the (B+N)*M combination as well.

This can also be done in a binary manner with a SPST switch, although the use of the third terminal on a tone pot enables some blending.


There are no dead positions in this design.


If you want to hear what it sounds like, go play a Fender American Deluxe Strat with three single coils and the S-1 switch.

I like how they sound (which is why I have some and came up with all this S-None "nonesense").






And then there's the S-2 switch.............

[sumgai]

Damn, ash, but you really made me work it all out again, with your statement about "the Mid is shorted".....



outris,

Sorry, but this won't work as shown. ash is correct - in Position 2/Down, the Middle pup is shorted through the 5-way switch. See where the Mid hot connects on the left side of that switch? When in Position 2, this lead is shorted (shunted, for those of you Forum members who speak British instead of American) to the Neck hot lead. In turn, the Neck's hot lead is also connected to the first and second terminals on the right side of the switch, no? And since this pole is going to the Mid's negative lead, that means that "Hot meets Not" (negative), the classic definition of "no output available at this time".

CURSES!

There's no easy way out of this, with the parts on hand. You can't even go back to your separate toggle switch for Bridge/Neck to put in series - it suffers the same malady!

The only real way out is to step up to the counter and pay the nice man for a true 5-way switch, one with 5 separate terminals for each pole (plus the common, making it 6 terminals on a side). That gets you out of purgatory, and also lets you refine your choioce of which positions will give you the series combos. Additionally, you can choose to lose the "all three" combo's, or keep 'em, if you prefer it that way. But in anywise, this upgrade will let you remove the dead spot in Position 3, can reduce or eliminate duplicate combos, and will probably "feel" better anyway - after all, it's a new switch, presumably one of quality construction, etc.

HTH




sumgai


OOPS! I see that everyone and his brother's uncle has chimed in, in the short time since I started this missive. Perhaps there's been some duplication, and if so, sorry 'bout that. But after being "outed" by ash, I had to put forth the effort.   I still feel that my proposed upgrade is the better all-around solution in terms of simplicity and cost.

[outris]

This design from our archives uses the standard Fender 5-way lever switch and a DPDT switch to realize the combinations noted. Use the last drawing in the initial post.

3 Single Coils and The "S-None Switch".

Chris, I took a look at that diagram and tried wiring it up using my DPDT. I wired it twice and once using the resistors as you suggested in an earlier post. The "normal" strat settings (switch down) worked fine in all cases, but in the switch up position, I was getting no readings on most lever settings. Any ideas?

I tried two different DPDT switches and got the same results.

[sumgai]

outtie,

Stop The Presses! Go look at this diagram: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=4411&page=3#39562

It does what you want, and it's been getting developed and vetted right along side of yours, all this time. Just pull off the cap mounted on the DPDT switch, and you're home free! ;D

HTH




sumgai

[outris]

Sumgai,
Awesome, thanks for pointing this out...I'm determined to make this durn thing work, although it may kill me . I'll keep an eye on this thread as he mentioned he would be posting another diagram.

[ChrisK]

Oh yeah, you betcha.

Now, when I just posted:

"This design from our archives uses the standard Fender 5-way lever switch and a DPDT switch to realize the combinations noted. Use the last drawing in the initial post.

3 Single Coils and The "S-None Switch".

With the addition of a simple wire, using The FREE Neck On Switch, one can realize all three pickups on in the parallel mode. In the series mode, one can realize the (B+N)*M combination as well.

This can also be done in a binary manner with a SPST switch, although the use of the third terminal on a tone pot enables some blending."

which, although it pretty much spelled out exactly what and how to do things, it wasn't the least bit clear until we took a look at;


guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=4411&page=3#39562


which clearly shows exactly what to do even though it's a fairly exact copy of my S-None switch design with my copyright removed.


I guess that placing a copyright in a design has a mind-blinding effect on humans.


I'm clearly wasting my time on this board.

[outris]

Finished Project
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=music&action=display&thread=4472