Tone Monster Wiring Diagram

[JohnH]

I had a further idea to simplify the operation of the SSS circuit. One of the things I like to do is to try to reduce the number of switches, while weeding out the not-so good sound combinations, concentrating on the best ones.

This idea is to get rid of several non-hum cancelling combinations. This works by combining the bridge phase switch with the middle on/off switch. It is exactly the same circuit as before, just the two DPDT's are combined into one 4PDT.

The point of it is that the best out-of-phase sounds are neck and bridge (NB). This is because the pups are a reasonable distance apart and so get different signals, and it is also hum cancelling. The other out-of-phase options (BM and MN) are hum-adding. Also in-phase NB is hum adding. By combining the bridge phase and middle on/off, the bridge phase is reversed if the middle is off, so if only NB is selected, it is automatically phase reversed.

The use would be transparent, just three on/off switches and a series/parallel, all the 2-pup combinations would be hum cancelling, and if neck and bridge are selected, you automatically get the out-of phase options (series or parallel). Hence theres one less switch to operate, and all good sounds with no odd settings.

If I can find an SSS guitar in need of a rebuild - this is the one I'm going to do!

Heres the schematic and wiring diagram.

people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/SSSseriesparallelwiringMk7.gif
people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/SSSseriesparallelschematicMk7.gif

This circuit should give interesting results with the neck blend - and with the series/parallel switch, should give the full range from Brain May to Mark Knopfler.

John

[Runewalker]

JohnH:

You continue to add intriguing refinements.

I agree with you that the In/Out of phase sounds are best with adequate separation, so I knew when I used the other design that the NM out of phase would not be selected often, if at all.

I am stuck on this sentence:

"By combining the bridge phase and middle on/off, the bridge phase is reversed if the middle is off, so if only NB is selected, it is automatically phase reversed.
..."


Means .... ? if you turn the Mid to 'off', and the phase on the Bridge to out, then the Bridge and Neck combo are hum cancelling.

So you still have the option of the System Series/Parallel --- but what about the in-phase our-of-phase option?

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you kick the Mid to OFF which automatically switched the phase of the Bridge to out of phase --- and that sounds like you lose the In-phase Neck/Bridge combo.

In other words you have the option of NB out-of-phase, Series or Parallel, but not NB in phase, Series or Parallel?

Going back to the Original single coil design (Ok, original vrs 3.0) Doesn't this same combo exist, ie., Bridge and Neck, Series or Parallel, but with both in or out of phase?

Admittedly, some of the combos in the original (3.x) have hum producing features. But the QTB mod really seems to inoculize this annoyance, if you are sure to stand 6 feet away from the amp.

Did I misread this?

[JohnH]

runewalker said:

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you kick the Mid to OFF which automatically switched the phase of the Bridge to out of phase --- and that sounds like you lose the In-phase Neck/Bridge combo.

In other words you have the option of NB out-of-phase, Series or Parallel, but not NB in phase, Series or Parallel?

You read it correctly - this option is a simplification/streamlining of the design. It removes some of the sound options which are non-hum-cancelling, and reduces the switches by one, so less to fiddle with. You do lose the NB in-phase, because this is not a hum cancelling combo, unlike BM and MN in phase (which are hum-cancelling).

Its appeal to me is along the lines of 'less-is-more', and 'quality rather than quantity'.

Theres nothing wrong with the previous version though, if you want to keep all the options!

John

[Runewalker]

First round I will build with all the options, because I grew up when 'excess is best.' After some of the test platforms I will probably move to something like this.

Until fully tested I will not know for sure, but the loss of the NB in phase seems pretty large, since that is the combo I miss most in conventional strat designs. The tone spectrum captured by these most distant pups seems to have a great deal of character, almost like biamping, expecially with your tres-cool blend pot mod.

So, test bed first.

I too was a little alarmed about the array of switches, but have gotten more comfortable with it by knowing I would put a push pull on the tone pot for In/Out of phase.

So 4 mini switches with the SSS is not bad. Adding my humbucker obsession ramps up the mini switch competition though, and 6 with the HSH (5 with HSS) is a little more daunting.

The 3 pup On/Offs will be pretty intuitive and basically just replace and give more control than the 5way.

My challenge will be in finding enough room without routing, and managing all those itty-bitty connections with my clumbsy Texas hands.

When we find the magic Blend pot + push/pull 4PDT and 500K push/pull DPDT -On-On-On we will be someplace in reducing the intimidation of the launchpad pickgaurd.

Another dumb question: Could you use a 4PDT On-Of-On on the mid to give you on/off functionality of the mid pup, but use the Off and bottom On positions to switch in/out of phase?

If that could work we would still have all the options and reduced switches.

here is an example, but the price is poor:

www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=61F1253&N=0

[JohnH]

Fair enough - it would be good to test all the options. And if you have a good shielding job, there may not be too much hum anyway.
Nice to see that 4PDT on-off-on. Its gotta be useful for something, but I dont think it will do the job here, since in the central 'off' position, everything would be disconnected, and it would break the 'series chain' of connections up through the circuit (in series mode, switching a pup off actually involves closing a switch contact to bypass it)

[Runewalker]

JohnH:

I think I have run accross a 4PDT on/on/on. Would that work?

[Cenulab]

Check this one out at Mouser...

www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=293175&e_categoryid=84&e_pcodeid=61200

Being a newbie myself, I asked the question and was told that "on-none-on" actually means that it's a two position switch (on-on), as opposed to "on-off-on", which is self-explanatory.

This has been an interesting thread, by the way...thanks to all!

[Runewalker]

Welcome Cenulab. This has mainly be JohnH and me, JH provided the brains, and me saying mostly, and petulently, "why not?"

JH suggested to me the On-On-On 4pdt would not work, potentially shorting the system.

Other than having a preponderance of switches, at least in the HSH mode, I think he has designed a unique, flexible, ergonomic and usable circuit.

The replacement of the 5 way with the 3 on/off is easy and intuitive to adapt to, immediately solving every strat player's delima (hey, why can't I have all 3 or BN combos). Adding the Series/Parallel system circuit is huge. Icing is the IN/Out of phase.

The feature I really like is the blend pot on the neck, allowing you to dial in as much or little full mid and bass tones from the Neck as the piece you are playing calls for. Sort of like setting a 32 band EQ then rolling it in or out of the mix.

this stemmed from the original "Tone Monster" circuit on GuitarNutz, but has morphed into a "Tone Godzilla" or "Tone Muthra" or "Tone Titan" or .....

Rounding up the parts has been my delema. The 4pdt were not inexpensive, and my various projects are draing my play budget, expecially when I buy multiples. Found a site: www.cablesandconnectors.com/220001.HTM

But called the dude and he sold me his 6 in inventory. Got a better price, but still, it adds up.

This hobby may have gotten out of hand

[JohnH]

Hi Cenulab - I'm glad someone else is watching! Working on this thread has been interesting, and its very hard to know when to stop!. At the moment Im working on an HSS version, with a rotary switch for the bridge Hb. This will give series, parallel and each of the single coils. Since the two coils of the Hb are different polarity, it will allow hum cancelling in and out of phase options with both the middle and the neck pups. It would allow the phase switch to be combined with the middle switch (as previous post), without losing the NB in phase option of single coils.

[Runewalker]

JohnH, and Cenlab if you are still with us.

There is some housekeeping I need to complete at some point.

I need to complete the Tone charts for each of JHs diagrams - at least the ones without the mid 4Pdt.

Here is the HSS adaptation of his SSS - HSH diagram. I think it is right, but ....


www.thefilebucket.com/userfiles/paladin7/Strat%20Wiring%20Diagrams/HSS-Seriesparallelwiring.doc

This feature in Word is one I have not worked with and I agree it is much easier than the drawing components I was using. Where is it? Under Drawing/Autoshapes/Connectors?

John I have a old L6S with a six position rotary. It was pretty easy to use, so I am intrigued by this alternative approach. It was, not as intuitive as the 3-mini pup selector array, but workable. I have thought about bringing it up as an alternative to teh NASA control pannel, but felt maybe I was pushing the envelope.

I do want to ask you about an array for HH, with Single/Parallel/Series for each hummer, In/Out of phase, 3Way toggle selector, and push pulls on the Vol/Tone, Vol/Tone.

Maybe this needs another thread, but I am thinking of expanded arrays beyond the Series/Parallel/Single In/Out of phase.

Maybe like your beast, with :

• the In/out of phase within each pup, and adding
  
• the Single North Neck, Single South Bridge together for hum-cancelleing,
  
• Series or Parallel system choices, and
  
• Choice of which coil in a humbucker goes single
  
  

Is this overkill, absolutely.

In addition to the strat conversions we have talked about I have two SG conversions to be completered this Summer.

Just think about it, if your brain is not too tired.

[JohnH]

Ill have a think about that.
You are right about the 'connectors' in Word - useful I think.
I find HH circuits much easier to figure out than those for three pups, its easier to balance the hum cancelling properties, so lots of options are possible without XS switches.

[Happyguy]

I just wanted to say wow . Great minds at work here! Realy good job! This is gonna have to be my summer project ;D although im not sure what a neck blend pot sounds like im certain that i now need one . And if i don't like the blend pot i will just put a switch there. And now for my noob question. Are all the pots the same value/kind ? volume/tone/blend should they all be 250k or 500k. Also what value is the capacitor?

You guys have great ideas, keep it up! ;D

[Runewalker]

Earlier on, JH expressed some begining ideas on pot values.

I tend to lean to the mid point pot value of 500K opposed to 1M or 250K.

My reasoning: This is a judgement call. I personally center in playing on the humbucker type sounds, ie. combos in series, whether within the humbucker or between the single coil combos. With this "Tone Muthra" having so many Series System options, you would not want the muddiness introduced by the 250Ks.

In general I am trying to move beyond tone controls and manage tonal spectrums with pup combos and blends, so I want the clarity of the pup, rather than the upper frequency rolloffs in the 250s.

Taht said, there are time when that single coil spank and sparkle is called for. So here is the compromise, hitting a value that sounds good with all but perhaps not optimum with singles.

I use a Digitech GNX and find I can, If I have to, compensate for over brightness (which is what you risk with 500s and singles) can be EQed in the device. with a bank overhead of 64 patches I can easily compensate if the 500K/singles are juist too much.

John, didn't you at one point suggest something a 100K blend pot value with the scrap/finger nail polish treatment?

But you raise perhaps another point, regardless of the Pot value settled on.: What tone capaciter value is optimum in this array.


I am not sure
A. of the proper value for the pot and
B. The scraping technique on a blend since it is two pots, center detened.

Finally, selecting capcitor values for the tone control will also involve the same balencing challenges, .047, .022 or something different?


JohnH --- What do you think?

[JohnH]

Runewalker,

Your version of the HSS wiring diagram looks fine to me, based on the SSS and the HSH versions. If the single coil pickups have shields, they can be grounded (the neck is shown with one and the middle without)

Here is the circuit schematic for the other HSS alternative that I was mentioning above. It uses a 3P4T rotary switch for the bridge pickup, and the combined switch (4PDT) for middle on/off – neck phase. I’ve swapped the neck and bridge pups in the circuit because with all of that bridge switching, I think it’s better if the bridge pup is electrically nearer to the ground, to collect less noise. The benefit of using the rotary rather than the on-on-on switch for the HB pup (as on the HSH version), is that by making both coils of the bridge available, the hum-cancelling between the bridge and each of the middle and neck pups can work both in-phase and out-of phase. The only problem I can see is that a rotary switch adds another ‘knob’ control, making 4 including blend, tone and volume. For a ‘Strat’ arrangement, maybe one has to go.

people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/HSSseriesparallelschematic.gif

Happyguy
The pot values for these circuits are somewhat guesswork – with 500k being a best guess. Exactly how the neck blend will work is subject to experimentation. It might be better with a different value – can’t tell yet. I think that in use, it is likely to need a different setting in the series and parallel modes, and if it doesn’t prove to be good to use, I’d advise being prepared to change it in some way.

The idea of a 100k blend, with a scraped end was for the simpler HSH circuit, without the series option.

Cap values and pot values are also a matter for personal choice. My own guitar actually has 100k pots and a 0.047 MFD tone cap. This is very unusual, but I keep it that way because that was how it was designed and it is a bit of a classic. For this circuit, Id start with 0.022 MFD to go with the 500k pots.

Now lets talk about HH guitars!

As I’ve mentioned in the previous post, with two opposite coils on each pup, the wiring can be arranged so that combinations always reduce or eliminate hum. You might check out my web site:

au.geocities.com/guitarcircuits

…for some ideas on HH wiring.

Actually the circuit Id like to try has a 3 pole 5 way switch for each pup, to select: series, parallel, coil 1, coil 2 (reversed) and series-out-of-phase. There’s no need for a overall phase switch since this gives heaps of hum-cancelling phased variations. The sound options that this scheme would give are the same as on my old Shergold (except I don’t have system series/parallel), and its absolutely vast. The system series/parallel if you want one, (and I expect you do Runewalker) is just a DPDT . So the switches would be:

2 x 3P5T – to select options on each pup
3-way lever switch
DPDT as part of a push-pull pot for overall series/parallel

Runewalker, you seem to be very good at sniffing out switches, does anyone make a 3 or 4 pole 5 way switch? I cant get one here. I think a ‘mega’ switch might do the job, though they seem to be lever switches. That would work fine, but I’m thinking of rotary so that it all fits neatly onto an SG or LP with no new holes.

The pots could be master volume and tone, or perhaps lose the tone pot and have a blend instead, with maybe another push-pull switch to switch in a simple fixed treble cut.

What do you think of all that?

Cheers

John

[Runewalker]

JohnH: "...What do you think of all that?..."

The HH idea .....

Yes it is insane, and I love it!

I'll snoop around for switches. These 3P5T are rotaries?

RW

[Runewalker]

JH:

Ok, looks like these are pretty exotic. Few hits.

Here is a military surplus outlet that has all sort of rotaries, dimention for guitar applcations have to be assessed, and they ain't cheap. However, the good news is because they are military spec-ed some are explosing proof. That should be handy.

www.surplussales.com/Switches/SWSealed-1.html

You might have to settle for more than 5 throws.

[Runewalker]

Ok this may be getting closer:

www.mouser.com/?Ne=300&handler=data.listcategory&Ntt=*rotary*%2b*3P*&terms=rotary+3P&crc=false&N=69001&Ns=SField

Shafts may have to be hacksawed.

[JohnH]

Thats good hunting on the switches. I couldnt follow the mouser link, it just got me to the front page. They seem to sell ALOT of switches!

As I guess you have found, rotarys are much more common with up to 12 connections (1x12, 2x6, 3x4, 4x3). For the HH idea, theres a very sensible version using two 3P4T, instead of 3P5T. What youd have is,

on the neck:
series, parallel, coil 1 and series out-of-phase

on the bridge:
series, parallel, coil 1, coil 2 (reversed)

plus a system series/parallel

The thinking is the same as for the 5-way switches. This gives all the same in-phase options. You still get one of each in-phase and out-of-phase hum-cancelling combos of single coils. Having a choice of single coils only at the bridge is sensible, because they sound a bit different. Also, the series out-of-phase at the neck sounds much nicer than the one at the bridge - so you get all the best options.

I hate to say it, but I think this is a really sensible option (not insane, does that spoil it?). Im going to have to draw it

John

[Runewalker]

Mouser is a major distributor for a number of manufacturers so yes they have a tremendous access to a vast range of products. The link I showed was the result of a search so maybe it did not direct you there without going through their search engine. Try mouser.com and seach on rotaries, or using their nomeclature: 3p 5pos

I have not given up on your 3P5t. Here is another, I think:

www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=74607

Will that one work?

Their complete list:

www.electronicsurplus.com/dictionary/cat2112.htm

Don't let it get out but I may be having a bout of prudence. I suspect that with the HH that just because you could get every possible combo, many would be nearly indistinguishable from each other. So choking back the options to the optimum combos has merit, I am afraid.

I don't think I see a In/Out of phase for both pups. I am not sure that is a big loss.

I think your guitar has the In/Out of phase within the pickup option. How would you characterize the sound differences in one pup, Series vs. Parallel vs single vs out-of-phase?


I am trying to envision a layout on the front of the guitar. I have an SG I am building up that might be a canidate, and it has 4 Potentiometer holes. So I could replace the two tone spots with these switches. But that leaves two spots for a Master volume and Master tone. This might be a place to test my notion of tossing the Tone pot entirely and go to the blend control, which would be pretty pure since there are only 2 pups.

If I lose confidence on abandoing the tone control this body has a top mount jack hole I could convert to another Pot slot (notice how copiously I have avoided the Pot Hole pun .... er... whoops) for the blend or master tone control.

This would be a wolf in sheep's clothing installation since it would basically look stock with no minis giving its power under the hood (or do you have bonnets there?)

I have some affection for this idea because I have an old Gibby L6S that had a 6 postition 'chicken head' rotary (I think I mentioned this earlier). after you got used to it, it was pretty easy to manage.

Perhaps I could put some 'chicken head' knobs on for nostalgia, but that would give away its differences.

[JohnH]

That switch looks like it would work. And I found one in the mouser catalogue, on this page:
www.mouser.com/catalog/622/1121.pdf
It lists some with 4 poles and 5 or 6 posiitons, and a good price too. I see you can get 'shorting' and 'non-shorting'. If 'shorting' means 'make before break', then I think that is the one to go for. There'll be less pop when you change positions.

Since the 5 pos switch can be gotten, Id say go for that.

Ill post a schematic shortly.

Theres no system/in-out of phase switch with this design. In fact Id definately advise not to do one. The idea of the circuit is that for all the non humbucking options on each pup, the bridge pup always makes (say) positive hum, and the neck pup makes negative hum. So any combination between pups of single coils, or series out of phase, is always hum cancelling. That is even true if you combine a single coils with series out-of-phase on the other pup - no hum. The reason that works is magic.

But if you have a system phase switch, you can get dreadful things like hum adding of both out of phase pups . Also, the whole point of out-of-phase is to get brighter sounds, and this arrangement will have heaps of them, without a system phase switch.

What does it sound like? Within one pup, parallel in phase is between single coil and series humbucker. Two coils from different pups out of phase is brighter than a single coil, with an emphasis on the mids. A humbucker out of phase with itself is thin, like a harpsichord. Two of them together is super thin. Have you ever heard the intro to 'Wish you were here', by Pink Floyd? It sounds like that (though no doubt they did it a different way). When I first heard it (in mid 70's) I had just finished a new stereo amp - I thought it had fried its output transistors, until the lead acoustic guitar started.

If you want to hear the sounds that I get, you can download them here:
www.shergold.co.uk/soundcheck.html

You can hear the original sounds of a Shergold Masquerader, like mine. It includes for each pup, series, series out-of phase and single coil, and all the combinations. My wiring has added the parallel sounds and the choice of the other single coils so you wont hear those there. These guitars have quite clean bright, not very hot pickups, so youll have to imagine the effect with other pups.

cheers

John

[JohnH]

Here is a schematic of the full version with the 5position switches:
people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/HHseriesparallels5wayschematic.gif

A version with just a 4 way switch would be easily made, if required.

As you can see, all of the complexity is around the rotary switches. These can be wired up before connecting the pups, pots etc, so the actual installation is very easy. The belnd control is a simple one, in parallel mode it gradually fades the two pups together(so if S1 is set to bridge, it fades in the neck, and vice-versa), and in series mode, it fades the neck in and out. Scrape away the left end of the track to make a position to take it out of circuit.

No tone control is shown, but could of course be added. I quite like the idea of a push-pull switch on the blend pot to switch in a fixed treble cut. The series/parallel switch can be push/pull on the volume pot if wanted.

A wiring diagram would be easily produced, but it would depend on which switches are used.

cheers
John

[Runewalker]

The Shergold Masquerader link was helpful. That is quite an array of tones. The out of phase tones are pretty speciallized, I could see some applicaitions but their use is likely to be minimized. Nice to have but only occasionally used. Funk type rhythm chords, or odd intros, maybe some reggae...

Here is the spec sheet on the switch from Mouser I believe you are considering:

www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/TW-700031.pdf

Dimentions are that of a typical Les Paul pot, if it was stacked. They are mfg. by Alpha.

The non-shorting one:

www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=74607

has no spec sheet on dimentions so I would need to contact them for that.

The blend as you describe it seems to work a little diffenently than the blend on the Strat adaptations. At least it changes when in parallel mode. But it seems workable.

I have looked for but never found a push-pull switch on a blend pot. Plenty of push-pulls on 250K and 500K pots, just not on a blend pot.

Yes, I was thinking of a fixed treble cut capacitor ala Jaguars and JazzMasters. Since I don't really use the tone that much that might serve the purpose, just a little art involving in choosing the optimal value. Then again perhaps we could use one of those on-on-on switches to give no cut, or cut 1, or cut 2? (two diff cap values)

"series/parallel switch can be push/pull on the volume pot if wanted ..." is probably the way to go.

The issue of switch pops between settings concerns me a bit.

What does "3 POLE 2-5 POS. 1 SEC NON SHORT" mean on the 1 sec part? is there a one second delay between settings?

RW

[JohnH]

Runewalker - The mouser one looks fine. I think the shorting type is the way to go, so the 2nd switch would not be so good. I dont know waht the 1 SEC reference is for, I dont think its to do with seconds, it could be that all the switches are on one wafer rather than 2.

The out-of-phase tones are fairly funky - I like them for strumming, but let me know if you'd prefer not to have them.

The blend pot on this circuit is just a single standard pot. Im suggesting 100k Lin with the end scraped (unlike the one for the HSH circuit, which I think is probably a higher value such as 500k - and I ve expressed my unceratinty previously!). Actualy any pot will work, its just being used as a variable resistor. You could try a 250k, and you could test this now on any guitar, just put wires to one end and the central connection of the pot, and apply it to the output wires of two pickups, where they connect to the selector switch.

A tone switch which is an on-off-on with two caps is a good idea, if you can accomodate it.

John

[Runewalker]

Pots ---

These Alpha pots at Mouser:

www.mouser.com/catalog/622/472.pdf

have an attractive price point. Most of the guitar electronic houses tout CTS pots. However, their markup is pretty significant, and at $.96 USD/ for 10 it is hard to beat these Alphas.

Are their quality, or durability, or value-reliability issues you are aware of with Alpha pots?

[JohnH]

im sorry I dont know, but for $0.96, theres not much to lose!. You can always replace them one day if needed.

[Runewalker]

John H:

I was going through the thread to set up a parts list and realized I had not followed up on a request for a wiring diagram conversion of the schematic.

"...Here is a schematic of the full version with the 5position switches:
people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/HHseriesparallels5wayschematic.gif

A wiring diagram would be easily produced, but it would depend on which switches are used...."

So could you do your magic and Word and convert the schematic?

Also, as you noted earlier, the 3pole versions rarely come with the 5 throws.... You pointed me towards the 5 or 6 postion 4 pole switches. So that means that one set of poles are left empty?

Are you thinking that one extra position may be used in the future, or is 5 enough?

RW

[JohnH]

Thats right, we can ignore a set of poles if needed. Im travelling again this week, back on Friday evening , Aus time. Ill be able to do some diagrams then.

I think 5 positions is plenty!, so 4 pole 5 position switches would do the job fine

[Runewalker]

whupps:

SD's link:

www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/series_split_par_w_phase.html

[Runewalker]

whupps:

SD's link:

www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/series_split_par_w_phase.html

[Runewalker]

Ignor last post, had too many windows up and posted to the wrong thread. Duh....