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Post by cynical1 on Jun 28, 2011 12:41:45 GMT -5
Not sure if this is the right place for this, so please feel free to move it accordingly. My question concerns what equipment, techniques or tricks are the best for circuit board level soldering. Specifically, the Fernandes 401 Sustainer Board. The OEM version I was sent has all the functionality of the aftermarket board, except the sustainer intensity pot connection. The board appears to be mapped for this, but the connectors are not in place. There's just three blobs of solder where the connector should go. See below for illustrations: According to Fernandes tech support, I just need to solder pins into the board to enable this functionality. Here's where I have to ask for some guidance. I currently have your average run of the mill pointed tip Hi-Lo soldering iron. While it's great for pots and switches, it looks a tad big for board level stuff. I would hate to short the circuit out on the board. I was toying with the idea of coiling copper wire to the tip of the soldering iron to conduct the heat to melt the solder...but I haven't actually tried it yet. So, I was wondering if there's a special soldering iron, or trick I could employ with the current soldering iron, the would enable me to solder three pins into this board? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by roadtonever on Jun 28, 2011 15:26:44 GMT -5
No experience myself with such jobs TBH I'd be scared crap less if I had to work on a circuit board. I'll pass this on however curiousinventor.com/ Theyhave some video tutorials on techniques for working with minaturized surface mount components on circuit boards using a typical soldering pen and maybe some extra flux, among other things. I understand you only need to add some pins to make a connection between a few point but until someone else chimes in I think you might find at least a few useful ideas in those videos, they're very nicely made.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 28, 2011 21:57:26 GMT -5
c1,
I wouldn't go so far as to use an external bit of material (the copper winding) to re-purpose my iron - I'd just make sure I was using the correct tool in the first place.
However.....
I'm not so sure you need anything special here. What size iron do you have now? Hi-Low doesn't tell me(us) much...
Also, if you don't already have one, procure a solder sucker of some sort. Heat the square blob, suck off the solder, and the hole should be clear. Insert your control (or wires leading to the control), and solder everthing back up.
If you take care in your work, this will probably be all you need to do.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 28, 2011 22:48:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I can't tell you much more about the soldering iron. I can tell you it's an Archer Model 64-2057 dual heat soldering station...and it's old enough to drink in all 50 States by now. The last time I saw the manual I still had hair.
I'm guessing it's a 20W low to 40W high unit, but there's nothing on Google, except an old ad in Popular Science from 1989...
The tip measures 3/32" diameter, and comes to a point over the last 3/32" of the tip. And it's a permanent fixture and can't be swapped out for a different tip.
The idea of the wire was to decrease the amount of contact area the heat could touch. These contact points are pretty close together, and I'm not sure I trust my aim and eyes with a soldering tip this big... I'm not even sure it would conduct enough heat down the wore to melt the solder anyway.
I'm thinking the pins out of a D sub connector should work...they worked fine in bypassing the throttle position sensor on the Dodge to get the overdrive back...wish I'd have kept the spares I had left...
If you know of something more specific, or desirable to use for this please feel free to shout it out.
Anyways, I'll muster up some courage and see what I can do.
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on Jun 29, 2011 3:45:45 GMT -5
c1, 20 or 40 watts, that's good enough. Even the Lo heat will melt the solder quickly enough to pull it away, without damaging the surrounding parts and pieces. The Hi setting will also work, but if you're not as drunk as ash, then I can understand your trepidation about knackering up an item that Fernandez was kind enough to supply you with in the first place..... From what I can see, the spacing for those three pin pads is 1/10th inch, or 0.100, in the circuit board vernacular. This is very common, and until you get to surface-mount technology, it's dictated by the pin spacing on virtually every IC ever made, almost from Day One. Your 3/32nd" tip will fit in there just fine, unless you've been neglecting to take your anti-seizure medications again..... And another thought, as to cleaning up/out the solder from those pads..... There's a product called Solder-Wick, and it works by laying it on the joint to be de-soldered, heating it with the iron, and when the solder beneath has gotten hot enough, it flows into the braid, as if it had been 'wicked' up. Clever stuff, and not very expensive. There's a time and place for the vacuum tool, and ditto for the wick braid. In your case, you could conceivably lay it across all three pads together, heat one after the other in succession, and have the wick snap up all that goodness, leaving nothing but bare bones, all gussied up and ready to go for your next trick. If your zip code doesn't have a Radio Shed, then try your local CornBinder barn - the mechanic might have a hank of it in his/her toolbox. HTH sumgai
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Post by gumbo on Jun 29, 2011 7:01:12 GMT -5
...and I have been known to put a fine drill bit in the chuck on the Dremel and simply drill through the hole in the board and (subsequently) through the solder blob...then re-soldering requires only one application of heat....sometimes helpful to me if I'm worried about adjacent components....
...I find it easier to do from the other side and watch it all in a mirror... ..no, not really...
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 29, 2011 8:35:36 GMT -5
IDK if you've gotten into the habit of tinning your components, but it's I think it'll be a good idea here. Heat whatever you're sticking in there and add a bit of solder to them away from the board. Then when you go to actually assemble the thing you won't have to be heating the board quite so long.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 29, 2011 9:12:30 GMT -5
Well, since coffee is about the only mind altering substance I can afford anymore the hands are pretty steady. I just don't use the soldering iron enough to have a good technique.
I had a buddy that was certified in this stuff, but have long since lost touch with him. I've seen him do this type of work, and things even more sophisticated, so I have a healthy respect for the craft involved in doing this well.
I found the desoldering wick on the Radio Shack site. There's a few Radio Shack stores in Madison...about 50 miles away...but that's the price you pay for living out here. I'd need to pick up another D sub connector for the pins anyway. I'll also need to get some smaller diameter solder as well if I'm going to re-solder the pins.
I like gumbo's idea of drilling out the holes from the front and just re-melting the solder to the pins by holding the tip in the pin itself until the heat melted it into place. I have buku drill bits and a Dremel tool...even an engraver bit that drill a very small hole in soft material. This looks like something I would have to try and screw up...
And as sg mentioned, I don't want to tank a perfectly good sustainer board just to gain one functionality...
This guitar is still a ways off from being finished as this is for the prototype* guitar that has been lurking for a while now, so it has to be 100% functional in this areas to work.
I suppose I could practice on the old dead board for a while and gain a small measure of experience.
Thanks for the tips and insights.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
* sg and lpf3, I'm going to try the POC on the Fernandes, since I have to do some more body routes to accommodate the new board, so I figured, why not do the whole thing. I'll leave a light on...
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Post by sumgai on Jun 29, 2011 12:28:19 GMT -5
c1, Practicing on the old board is a good idea. I say, if you've got the hands to play an instrument without fear, then you can solder like a journeyman, if not a master.... yet. And I don't know if we're on the same page here, but my mind looks at a D-sub mini connector, and it cringes at all the space being taken up inside/under the pickguard. A small Molex connector would be better, IMHO. You've got several of them on the board already, why not stay with same form and pattern, so to speak? Errrrr........... ummm.... is there a similar connector on the old board that you can put the arm on? Oh, and drilling out a hole is OK for a single sided board like this one. Never drill anything on a double-sided board - NEVER! You will render it null and void, trust me on this. ash's tip on pre-soldering (tinning) is good, but it only takes a little dab to do ya. It may not look like you got much on there, but really, it doesn't take much. What you're doing is decreasing the time it takes to transfer heat from the iron to the component (ditto for the trace on the board), which is always a good thing. But don't trust that little coating of solder to be enough, always add a bit more, until you have a small mound surrounding the component's lead. Several (many!) examples can be found on that very board....... that's what you want your results to look like, or as close to it as what makes you happy with your work. OK, that's it, now I really gotta run! sumgai p.s. I've always heard that self-flagellation is more productive if you leave the light on.... (but I wouldn't know anything about that, I'm only repeating rumors here!)
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 29, 2011 23:29:10 GMT -5
Well, I'm sure about the "soldering like a journeyman" part...but I can do pots and switches with a fair amount of consistency...
And I wasn't planning on using the entire D sub connector, just the pins. I'd probably have to cut them down, but the crimp end holds the wire nicely when you're soldering them up.
But I like your idea of stealing a connector off the old board. The spacing should be identical on a few of them. I never even thought of that...but I'm not as experienced as you are...and nowhere near as judicial...
And I think I'm leaning towards drilling the points on the board first and heating the pins to melt the solder on the lower setting.
Would a brush-on flux help when using the drill and heat method?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Jun 30, 2011 1:36:09 GMT -5
Would a brush-on flux ...... Stop right there! Using those words in an electrical context is grounds for getting booted off this board! Well, for you, we might only apply a little Judging.......... But the answer remains the same: [glow=red,2,300]HELL NO! A thousand times HELL NO!!![/glow]Most kinds of brush-on flux are made for plumbing and such, not for electrical connections. The problem really lies in the fact that solder made for radio-TV use already has a flux built in (that's the "rosin core" that you hear about or read about). The two kinds of flux don't mix, not at all - the net result is that radio-TV solder won't stick to anything at all..... not what you wanted! Worse, plumber's solder is made to etch its way into the pipe material, and that ability is what will literally eat alive anything and everything under the hood of our "delicate" gear. Since you have to use this nasty stuff if you've used brush-on flux, you will soon be singing the blues with authenticity! My advice: Don't do dat!I trust I was judicial enough, eh? HTH sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 30, 2011 2:11:46 GMT -5
... But the answer remains the same: [glow=red,2,300]HELL NO! A thousand times HELL NO!!![/glow]Just so I understand...because sometimes you can be a bit obtuse...I shouldn't use additional flux to solder these pins, right? Please, feel free to correct me if I misunderstood you... And consider me judged accordingly.... Here's the video that prompted the infamous flux question. It's from the curiousinventor.com/ link that roadtonever pointed out. And I apologize for getting your blood pressure up. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by gumbo on Jun 30, 2011 8:36:29 GMT -5
As (MythBusters) Adam would say, "There'z yer prarblum!" ...you're trying sodder when you should solder...
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Post by gfxbss on Jun 30, 2011 23:59:39 GMT -5
Cyn, that video shows surface mount components. That is a whole new ball game from what you are dealing with. Surface mount are used on stuff like new Dunlop, MXR(Yeah, I know, same thing.) EHX nano ect....
What you have are through hole components. No flux needed(as long as you are using rosin core, I would be surprised if you're not). you want to heat the pad on the board up, and remove the existing solder. Tin your wires. Then put your wires in, heat the board and wire, and solder that bad boy up!
I personally use an iron that goes from 0-100W. I generally use 60-80W of power. Depending on what I'm soldering, of course. Don't spend 10 mnutes in there, but I personally think, that IMHO, you have done enough repairs to be reasonable, STOP WORRYING AND JUST DO IT!
Let's face it.... Even if you do over heat components, you just have to go down the line!!
I have worked on A LOT of board and I can tell you that push pull pots are far more difficult, YOU CAN DO THIS.
Tyler
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Post by sumgai on Jul 1, 2011 2:21:22 GMT -5
What Tyler said! (+1 for that)
I take back a bit of what I said. As noted, SMT components require different techniques than "old school". Recall the narrator's mnemonic - if you're touching both parts (lead and board trace) directly with the solder wire, then you don't need any extra flux. In SMT work, such is difficult, to say the least.... Separate application of flux is appropos at this time, provided it's The Right Stuff.
Now, bear in mind that most people who aren't EE's or experienced technicians will hear the word "flux" and immediately run down to the local hardware emporium for some of that good stuff. Sadly, they'll come home with plumber's flux, which I've already delineated as to why that's a no-no. Having seen no SMT parts on your board, I made an assumption, for which I apologize. Mea culpa, and all that.
Oh, and no blood vessels were burst in the making of this thread! ;D
HTH
sumgai
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katillac
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 11
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Post by katillac on Aug 7, 2011 1:26:16 GMT -5
Sorry to bump an older thread, but as someone who actually likes to solder, I feel comfortable in offering a few tips. No pun intended.
The next time you're at Rat Shack, in addition to picking up things such as the desoldering braid, pick up some tip tinner. It comes in a little tin with a plastic cap. Marvelous stuff. I use it when I first fire up my iron and when it's quitting time. I'll use it in between sometimes instead of rosin-core solder to avoid excess buildup of rosin.
Flux. They do make flux for this type of thing and it comes in a handy-dandy pen, kinda like a felt-tip marker. I've owned the same one for many years, but I only use it when it's absolutely necessary to have a little extra flux, and that's mostly when soldering tinned wires that don't want to let the solder adhere and to help solder flow when I'm connecting holes on a project board.
I never use a dampened sponge to dab the tip of my irons. I do not like the sudden change in tip temperature that comes from doing that. Instead, I use a metal-coil pot scrubber. Hakko makes something similar, and I bought one. Once. That's when I decided they were just an overpriced version of a pot scrubber. If you can find the copper-coloured ones, all the better. My current one has lasted about three years now, but it's stainless steel and can be a bit rough on cheaper tips (like the typical ones from Rat Shack). I keep mine in an old coffee mug and if I need to put my iron back in the stand for more than a few seconds, I first swirl the tip around in the scrubber. That way, no solder sits on the tip, turning to black gunk.
My workhorse soldering station is a cheapie adjustable-temp, 50-watt unit made for Velleman. I say made for, as there are others just like it sold under other names. I recently found a seller on eBay who stocks other tips for it, so I'm happy about that, even though I've used the same tip that came with the station when I bought it five or so years ago. If you have a Frys near you, they sell the Velleman station for $20. If you keep an eye out for sales, they run them at $15 or less from time to time. Sure, it's no $200 Hakko, but for me, it does the trick and I've even done some SMD repairs with it.
One of THE best things I've ever added to my tinkering arsenal is a pair of cheap reading glasses. A friend recommended them over having to use one eye while peering through the additional magnifier built into my magnifying lamp. Since buying the reading glasses (under $5 for two pairs on eBay), I've only used the magnifying lamp as a lamp. The ones I bought are +3.5 diopter. It made doing detailed cuts with my Dremel when I changed the fretboard markers in the neck of my favourite guitar. I just can't believe I never thought of using reading glasses before. If you already wear glasses, they make clip-on magnifiers, as well as glasses with higher strength. I found some +6.0 on eBay through a Chinese seller that I may buy. Those should come in handy for soldering 24g and smaller wiring.
That's all for now =)
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 7, 2011 10:05:24 GMT -5
Hey, feel free to bump them anytime.
Tip tinner is on the list, along with the pot scrubber. I know exactly what you're talking about, too. My Mom has used those things for years. I'll find out where she gets them and grab a couple.
And I'll check out the Velleman stations. As I said before, my soldering iron is ancient...it still does the job, but the tip is reaching the EOL phase and I really need to start looking for replacement.
And I've been doing all of my Optometry through Walgreen's for years now. I work on computers for a living, and once I noticed I couldn't read the fine print on the boards anymore I took my first step down the Great Myopia Road. I've got different strengths for the computer, trimming horse feet, reading and I gang them up for soldering and close work. The 1.75 and the 3.25 worked the best for up close. Granted, If I ever stare at the sun in that configuration I'll burn a hole through the back of my head...but it works indoors just fine...
Thanks again for bumping this one up.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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katillac
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 11
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Post by katillac on Aug 7, 2011 19:03:21 GMT -5
You can get the scrubber at pretty much any store - Walmart, grocery stores, and dollar stores. Those are everywhere, aren't they? I bought my last ones 2/$1 and I'm still using the first one after a few years. I haven't soldered in a while, but I'm about to embark on wiring up my SX Strat with Brian May switching, sans phase switching (like on Wolf's site).
If you like the Velleman soldering station but don't have a Fry's nearby, they do online orders, and you can find them on eBay. There is another brand on eBay that looks just like it - even the tips are the same style, but the tips for them are just shy of 1mm larger in diameter. I learned that the hard way recently, but thankfully found another seller with the correct-size tips for my iron. I love having adjustable wattage!
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