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Post by cynical1 on Nov 12, 2011 16:49:29 GMT -5
I found this idea from 4Real under Crazy strat switching. Hmmm....was this the post you were referring to SG? HTC1
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Post by sumgai on Nov 12, 2011 17:44:49 GMT -5
No, that would be: Ya know, I think I'm gonna stay outta this one, unless specifically invited for a specific reason. Seems to me that in spite of "marketing longevity", there is some really, really bad engineering going on here. I mean, come on, amplified audio feedback, right within the guitar? When it could be done better? That is so last century. And don't get me started on the whole EMI thing.... I wasn't aware of that particular pitfall, not being a "sustain" kinda gai. Kinda makes me glad I never fell into this particular black hole. But by all means, forge ahead. To paraphrase Dilbert, I'm not against sustain, I'm just against bad engineering. STDH sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 12, 2011 18:03:25 GMT -5
Aw, c'mon...don't just lurk out there...
Sure, there are some oddities behind this design. They all run pretty much along the same lines, except for 4Real's.
Got a good line on 6PDT or 8PDT switches that'll fit inside of a guitar?
HTC1
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 12, 2011 19:07:15 GMT -5
But why does it own the bridge pickup? What stops you just splitting the bridge hot and not hot? When active, the sustain board does what it does, but there is no reason that you have to monitor the buffered pickup output. You can just as easily monitor the other side of the split, which is the passive bridge output loaded a little by the input of the board. This is what it looks like 4real does. The difference here is that Fernandez wants to make it a simple plug and play kind of thing. Plug all your parts into the board and trust them to have figured out all the switching. If you were satisfied just using the thing the way they intended...but you're not. I'd say rightfully so. But, unless they are insisting that you not modify their stuff (and I can see where they might) you can force their board to do the one thing (like 4real's does) and work the other stuff out for yourself. Well, you know, with our help if you need it. Anyway, I say ignore the audio output of the sustainer board and just run it in parallel across the bridge pickup the way 4real does with his. But doesn't Alpha make a 6PDT rotary in the same line as the ones I use all the time? I thought they had just about every combination of P x T <= 12 on one deck. I know for a fact that they have 3P4T and 4P3T. Their not mil-spec, but can't be much less reliable than a standard Gibson of Tele switch. Edit - Puruse this page of mouser's catalog. The single deck switches fit even in my mini strat. The double-deckers fit inside my Rick 330, but might not in anything much thinner. Never really tried, though. The datasheets have all the dimensions and stuff.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 12, 2011 23:51:51 GMT -5
The board doesn't own the bridge Hot and Nhot, but it does require them for the sustainer to work. This is what picks up the driven string vibration. It strikes me that if both passive and active have no contact with each other this thing will work fine in either mode. The reason I have to monitor the sustainer board active bridge output is on the occasion that someone switches to the active side (aka "the board") but not in sustainer mode there would still be output from the bridge output of said board. In passive mode life is good and it should function as any other 2 humbucker pickup would. As you pointed out before, any signal crossover could result in less then desirable sounds emitting from the guitar. The difference here is that Fernandez wants to make it a simple plug and play kind of thing. Plug all your parts into the board and trust them to have figured out all the switching. Well, it does simplify installation of their kits. On the board I have I'll need to solder in the leads for the sustainer intensity pot. I've also seen some walkthroughs that discuss desoldering the DPDT and 3PDT switches to a more convenient location. In all reality, this is not a new design. In its basic form it's been around for around 20 years. People buy it for the sustain and Fernandes and the battery companies all make money. The battery killing is a trade off people seem to willingly accept as a trade off for the sustaining features. And if you install it according to the manual it's straightforward, and the 5 way switch works just like a 5 way switch is supposed to work. No. I don't like being a slave to an active guitar. While the sustainer is a cool effect, I don't want to be tossing batteries into it like quarters at the laundromat. I've considered looking into some of the mods and things listed for this board, but I would prefer to keep the units as stock as possible. While SG and I agree that this is not the best example of how to engineer a sustainer, it's the one I have in front of me at the moment. I think it just comes down to having a better understanding of the sustainer circuit and where I can cheat and what I have to switch I followed your link and found this switch: Alpha Rotary Switches ROT 6POL 2POS NS SOL This might just do the trick. I'll need a fresh start in the morning to work through this, but thanks for the lead. I'll have to go back over that ground again depending on what I can do the the switch above. I really think I can make both the passive and active sides of this idea live happily together. Would I prefer not to go through all of this hassle? Sure. But bad engineering is not a strong enough obstacle for me to toss the towel in yet. If I was deterred by bad engineering I would have gotten out of IT years ago. The quest continues. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 13, 2011 3:21:51 GMT -5
I couldn't sleep, so I figured I'd rough out the drawing with the 6 pole Alpha switch. I apologize for the rat's maze drawing of the wiring to the not to scale rotary switch. If I have the switching logic correct, and I didn't screw up, position 1 gives me only the passive side, and position 2 gives me the active side. Both sides are segregated and life should be good. I'm going to sleep now. Nyquil good... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 13, 2011 14:13:49 GMT -5
I've mentioned it before, and you might have figured it out already, but those round shaft switches don't fit knobs made for knurled shaft pots. If you take a normal plastic strat knob and ream it out with a 1/4" drill bit they fit tight enough to turn the switch without slipping. You can also ream out the metal knobs with set screws (Tele, etc) but you want to go a little bigger than 1/4" or else you have to beat them on and will never get them off. Don't ask how I know that!
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 13, 2011 14:51:53 GMT -5
I'll probably go with something like this for the passive\active switch knob: ...or this: ...or maybe this: Hard to pick, Kilo International has some very sexy options to pick from... The spec sheet calls out a 6mm shaft diameter on the rotary switch, which is a hair under 1/4". I can always open the hole up if necessary. And they all have a set screw. Happy Trails Cynical One
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mpeto
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Post by mpeto on Aug 13, 2012 5:19:23 GMT -5
Hello.I bypass it with an on on switch.I solder an extra cable at the hot of the bridge and then to switch,the output of the pot to switch and the out of switch to jack.And guess?The sustainer works on both directions!The rest is yours!
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Post by strat80hm on May 30, 2013 14:37:37 GMT -5
Is it any easy/doable to:
- add a Intensity pot on a FSK101? - add a mix-mode feature? - replace the toggle swiches with push-pull pots?
I found a FSK 101 for $100U.S - it s been removed from a custom guitar it seems, it looks like a 101 and is just missing the battery compartment.
I like the Intensity feature, so i ll buy it if there s way to add it.
Thanks for input.
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Post by cynical1 on May 30, 2013 15:54:18 GMT -5
It's been a while since I looked at this, but the intensity pot is either already on the board in the form of a receptacle connector, the three points of connection are etched, but the connector is not soldered in, or, in the case of the Rev 1 boards, it just ain't there.
As far as mix mode...well, unless you know something I don't know, the sustainer board is in the circuit or out of it. There is no happy middle ground I could find. By design, even when the sustainer function is not engaged, the controller board needs to be powered up to get any output.
My intent with this mod was to be able to take the sustainer completely out of the circuit, or add it in at will. I had plan on powering this via a phantom power scheme...which is still in the works. I wanted to be able to play the guitar without the sustainer circuitry in a strictly passive mode. By design, you can't do that with the Fernandes sustainer.
The toggles on these tend to be soldered right to the board. Some of the older designs had a separate toggle connected to a second board.
I discovered during my research on this project that the configuration of these boards varies quite a bit. If you can put up a picture of the front and back I might be able to help you out.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by strat80hm on May 31, 2013 17:58:54 GMT -5
I m with you, we want a guitar to be able to deliver some sound in any full passive mode! So you re saying that in the end, despite all the schematics and trial, there have been no way outside of this sad scheme with the Sustainer s circuit: - would you know if a Sustainiac would be more open to this option at all? Regarding that "intensity" pot, here are some (bad) pics that i received of that Sustainer circuit by the way: is this enough for you to tell? i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/strat80hm/IMG_20130528_211102.jpg[/img]Honestly I m not sure yet of what Mix mode is - the guitar i tried at the shop was only offering ON/OFF and Normal/Harmonic. But i ve read here and there that i was a very useful feature, very "natural sounding" (whatever that means)
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Post by newey on May 31, 2013 19:06:15 GMT -5
Just a guess here, Ohmie, but I suspect this would mix variable amounts of the "dry" (i.e., un-effected) signal with the "wet" sustainer signal. This is what a Fender Reverb unit does, and any number of other effects gizmos do likewise.
As Cyn1 suggested earlier in this thread, and in the absence of a "Eureka" moment here, you may be left with Cyn's suggestion to just run two completely separate parallel channels, as on a stereo guitar set-up, either with separate outputs that could be combined external to the guitar, or with a switch or pot internal to the guitar which would join the two signals.
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Post by strat80hm on Jun 1, 2013 12:40:56 GMT -5
Mix Mode seems to be a mix of the 2 other modes actually: normal+harmonic. Here are some (almost) better pictures of the Sustainer board that were sent to me today (..) - any way i can connect a pot to this so that i end up with that needed Intensity post? - do the toggle-switches seem easy to replace with push-pull knobs?
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 2, 2013 11:13:04 GMT -5
Mix Mode seems to be a mix of the 2 other modes actually: normal+harmonic. Here are some (almost) better pictures of the Sustainer board that were sent to me today (..) - any way i can connect a pot to this so that i end up with that needed Intensity post? - do the toggle-switches seem easy to replace with push-pull knobs? OK, now I gotcha on Mix Mode...I saw it as "Either\Or". I put a circle around the spot on the board there the Intensity Pot connects into the circuit. A while ago SG and I had a PM conversation about the best way to add a pot to this board...but his preferred method escapes me at the moment. With luck he'll drift back here and add that in. As to your question of pulling the existing switches soldered to the board and replacing them with push\pulls...hmmm. You might get away with it on the Sustainer On\Off switch, provided you could unsolder the existing switch and resolder your wire connections back into the board without damaging said board. Personally, I wouldn't try it, but your skills at desoldering and soldering on boards may far exceed mine. For the Mode Switch, you're looking at the problem of not enough poles on a push\pull to make it happen...so unless someone knows something I don't about exotic push\pulls, I don't see that as doable. If your board ever fails, Fernandes will replace it for a charge. When I sent mine in a couple of years ago it was on $60.00. I would personally not want to ditch this warranty option to add push\pulls...but then again, I don't like push pulls anyway... Does that help? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by strat80hm on Jun 2, 2013 12:58:33 GMT -5
What more could i have been asking for? This is helping tremendously Cynical1
Go figure, but an extended look at that Blue Murder of yours made me half-guess that you might have something for the toggle switch. I m thinking push-pulls in order to avoid to have to drill the guitar, especially when i hear voices telling me not to damage a real 25 year old Fender strat. I do not particularly love them but i cant think of any better option.
No way i could accommodate these switches on that Fender body on the small telecaster pickguard (or maybe over the ugly vibrato-block recess?)
That FSK101 comes with that bulky humbucker sized driver/pickup: i tried it on that Fernandes guitar at the shop, and it really sounded empty and flat: on top of a driver, is it anything like a real pickup inside? I m wondering if i d better buy some single-sized one paired with a real single-coil, and try to figure out a system where switching to the neck pickup would select the coil, while turning the sustainer on would just bypass it. Ever tried that?
Thank you so much for your priceless experience - please dont feel flattered, it comes to most eventually, with time..
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 3, 2013 13:03:54 GMT -5
You hit on another reason for this design. The Fernandes neck pickup just sounds less than stellar when in simulated "passive" mode. I just have it in there as a driver for the sustainer function. The diagram is just a basic "proof of concept" which either makes it a passive guitar, or a guitar with a sustainer driver in the neck and magnetic passive pickup in the bridge feeding the sustainer circuitry. You probably could work out some type of blending circuitry, but IMHO is easier to just drop the sustainer into the loop in a binary way.
But the real consideration you need to make on any sustainer mod is the wood butchery that needs to take place in order to make it happen. You can make these fit in a lot of different guitars. You just need room for the sustainer board and a battery compartment. There are templates available for both of these type of cavities. so it's just getting over whether or not to perform the actual procedure.
This brings it back to the discussion we've had here many times in the past...to modify or not to modify. Everyone has an opinion, and an argument to support same. I guess the only question you need to ask is are you planning on selling it and want to preserve resale value.
I never feel flattered. This would entail that I actually knew something.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by strat80hm on Jun 3, 2013 21:00:30 GMT -5
I agree with that concept of sustainer "pickup" as just a driver for the system.
I just bought that FSK101 with the humbucker-sized driver though.
Yet that ll still be cool to have other options than just the obnoxious bridge pickup.
I m realizing that despite playing and tweaking guitars for over 30 years, i am still gonna have to go thru trial and errors for my "ideal" ideal guitar. So i m planning steps:
1 fixing the crack in the body
2 installing this FSK in an out-of-guitar fashion, along with the existing humbucker and Kahler Spyder vibrato bridge.
3 playing it bit in real live situation (say a small club), realizing that i could use a single coil pickup and coming up with a way to insert the existing Lace Sensor neck pickup in the middle, as a middle pickup
4 accepting the idea of never being able to resale this - but this has never been the point anyway - i sold 2 of my guitars only over all these years - and happily making the decision to make this factory-cut piece of too-tender basswood MY dream guitar, and thus to (hopefully properly) butcher it.
From then, drilling, digging a "swimming pool" into the body, below the telecaster-shaped pickguard, redrilling, etc will just flow.
That kit i m awaiting comes with no template, where to find these? (i downloaded the manual though)
Dont hate the messenger, though i m sorry to imply that there s some knowledge going on uphere regardless yup.
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daniel
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Post by daniel on Oct 18, 2013 9:05:50 GMT -5
Hello all you guys of the board
I´m from Brazil, (so, sorry for English errors) and recently have an issue with my Fernandes Sustainer unit.
During a repair on the guitar that the unit is installed, i had to disassemble the electronics, and while removing the sustainer board, the smal transformer went out and some wires of the transformer had broken. Further observation reveals that the plastic bobbin in the transformer becomes way too brittle and prone to breakage.. so, i think that was not entirely my fault, its was just the aging and fatigue of the material of the bobbin.
The Sustainer function itself was not affected by the absence of the transformer, but the sound of "neck pickup" is dead. So, im assuming that the transformer is a kind of matching coil to the neck pickup to use it "as pickup"...
Ia had contacted the Fernandes support and still waiting... having in mind that here in Brazil the possible solutions are very reduced, i´m asking for help in either way:
a) Could anybody give me some information to buy another transformer with the same specs of the original?
or...
b) Could anybody send me the specs to try winding the coils again or make another coils to replace the transformer?
I would like to thanks in advance, any help will be welcome.
Daniel
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Post by newey on Oct 18, 2013 18:09:59 GMT -5
Daniel-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
I don't have any answers for your questions, I've never had a Fernandes unit. But Cynical1 will be along, or someone else may have some info for you.
Cynical1 did mention that Fernandes will replace the board for $60 USD (or so it was at the time). That might be an option for you.
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daniel
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Post by daniel on Oct 19, 2013 12:25:23 GMT -5
Hello Newey, very thanks for the reply!
Seems that is exactly wat you said... Fernandes had awsered and they offered me an replacement board for about the same $60... i think that is be the best option.
But we are guitar nuts! and even buying a new board... i´ll try some small transformers in the circuit justo to see... such a shure sm57 transformer, i´ll post if get some result.
regards,
Daniel
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daniel
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Post by daniel on Oct 20, 2013 16:47:19 GMT -5
OK, I got some result with an sm57 transformer,
After testing some wiring, i got some signal boost, but still not having enough level matching... with the neck p.u. gain trimmer maxed i´m got almost the same output of the midle pickup but sill kinda weak and there´s some treble loss... anyway, it shows that there some fix to this problem... i just need to find a tranformer with the right ratio, or close as possible...
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Post by 4real on Oct 20, 2013 22:52:53 GMT -5
OK, I got some result with an sm57 transformer, After testing some wiring, i got some signal boost, but still not having enough level matching... with the neck p.u. gain trimmer maxed i´m got almost the same output of the midle pickup but sill kinda weak and there´s some treble loss... anyway, it shows that there some fix to this problem... i just need to find a tranformer with the right ratio, or close as possible... I know that this problem was investigated many years back, most likely in the old defunct and closed "Sustainer Idea's" thread over at PG. but the info is still there some where. Someone was able to identify it from the codes. However, if fernandes is offering a total replacement at $60 that's most likely the best and most efficient way of going if the driver/pickup is ok IMHO. The driver is a very low impedance pickup and the use of a transformer to boost such devices is fairly common, such as in teh Alumitone's by Lace, which have effectively only one turn in the coil of their frames, there is a transformer below that is bringing that extremely low impedance signal up to run passively. In my sustainer designs, I st out for the things to go off completely when not in use and maintain the passive nature of the guitar and to prolong battery life and other issues. On the commecial units, lose power (and these things drain a lot) and your whole guitar dies. I designed aroud the pickupas the driver by trying to make them smaller or combined (so a pickup with a driver coil on top say) so that there is no compromise between the chice of neck pickup and the driver...but that's a whole other story. Both the fernandes and sustainiac devices are excellent devices, all ahve their pro's and cons... EDIT: On the 'mix mode'...there are a few ways to bring out the harmonics. One that is typicall for the harmonics mode is to simply put the driver out of phase, a simple phase switch. This will suppress the fundamentals and driver the next strongest partials/harmonics on a given fret (they are not usually octaves) relative to the driver and pickup positions. Another way is like a 'tone control)...a little different but all the same...if the amplifier is biased towards the higher frequencies it will often drive the higher harmonics instead of the fundamentals...my sustainers tend to have this on the low notes as a standard. So, there is a 'mix' where some notes will come out as harmonics, often bloom beautifully between the notes sounded and fade to a harmonic, this is the principle in which 'Mix' controls work, in fact sustainiac had/has a mix knob to make things more selectable and while I was working with the sustainers got the chance to play such a guitar and it was quite an impressive control.
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 19, 2013 19:28:37 GMT -5
Anyone ever attempted to dismatle a Fernandes Sustainer Driver? That used FSK 101 came with that bulky humbucker-sized-driver pickup: i can tell that one coil (out of the 2-coil shape) is the actual driver, while the other coil (the one where the word Sustainer is serigraphed) is just empty. So i want to open up this big bulky black plastic pickup and only keep the actual driver. I would either make it a single-coil-shaped driver, or would couple it up with a lace-sensor single-coil in order to create a humbucker-sized-pickup containing driver+pickup. So that could look like this: That is basically destroying some otherwise easily sellable item, so before proceeding, i like to ask you GTNuts what you d have to say about that. Thank you for your lights.
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 19, 2013 19:32:48 GMT -5
Also do you know where i could find that "metal fender part" (as in car fender, not the guitar maker) on which to attach both coils? i could make one out of wood in case, but maybe there s a cheap "real metal" solution? How about these: anybody ever found a place to purchase these wiring clips?
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 19, 2013 19:38:27 GMT -5
By the way, after a couple of months on tour, i m back working on my dream guitar. I too - like Cyn1- wanted to bypass the sustainer to some degree. The way i m planning on doing it is by having 2 separate system on the guitar: - regular electromagnetic system with neck and bridge pickups attached to position 1 and 3 of a 3-way pickup selector. - sustainer + piezo bridge pickup attached to position 2 of the pickup selector.
This way, the sustainer can work while i play with either the neck, bridge or piezo pickup.
I ve done some out-of-body test and this seems to work fine. Anyone ever experiment in that direction too?
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 19, 2013 19:40:15 GMT -5
Similarly, i saw this: doesnt this look interesting?
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Post by 4real on Nov 19, 2013 23:48:06 GMT -5
You know it all looks very familiar... No, you cant use any pickup, even if teh signal is coming from a piezo as a separate signal. The magnetic pickups are very sensitive to 'picking up' magnetic signals, even a vibrating magnetised string. A sustainer driver puts out massive amounts of magnetic energy in order to move a string, therefore, the pickup will easily pickup this signal and send it to the amp. In fact, besides it going everywhere, it most certainly will travel through the metal string to where it can be picked up, bu the neck pickup. My sustainers are bypassed when off, including power to save the battery, but this kind of approach is unique and not without it's difficulties... I am familiar with the video guy and similar, most like this are just variations on the 'thin coil' driver concepts that I developed 10 years back. You will notice in this clip, the driver is being held around teh twelth fret, for the reasons above. Its all a matter of balancintg the power and efficiency to drive the strings but far enough away to limit signal leaking into the bridge pickup. Not just because it might be the source of the signal, but because it is a magnetic sensor and you only have distance to isolate thes signal. In fact, on my designs, everything, the ground wires and hots from any other pickups (likethe neck) need to be completely separated, not just 'deselected', power connected and the bridge pup selected, this requires at least a 4pdt switch t achieve. It could be possible with a super switch to achieve this. You can find one of my sustainer designs in the gallery here... guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5318A more evoved prototype I developed and was built into this guitar with other electronics for Tom Morello... www.guilfordguitars.com/the_goblinI tend not to discuss these things publically. I also dont work on this after 10 yeears of it having moved to other projects. You may email or PM if you choose, but there is a lot of material about such as whats inside the commercial versions and their approach. All sustainers require compromise and limitations ~
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Post by strat80hm on Nov 20, 2013 7:47:57 GMT -5
Lovely project than that Goblin, i like the genuine neck pickup.
I experimented with different position for the sustainer+piezo (hovering the driver above the strings in search of the sweet volume/sustain spot) while amping only the magnetic pickups, and it seemed to work with no hiss, be it from neck or bridge pickup i reckon. Like the Ebow, the closer to the middle of the string and the closer to the strings the stronger the effect, though it seemed that i could get a good compromise midway between neck and bridge pickup. I also liked the driver at the bridge, allowing to use the ouput of the neck pickup or the piezo, resulting in different sounds. My main quest is to have the sustainer able to work on the longest possible length of string - hence closer to bridge.
Regardless, my next step is gonna be the dismantling of that driver.
This is work in progress and I ll be interested to have more insight of your experience in this domain 4sure, will talk soon then, thanks.
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Post by 4real on Nov 20, 2013 19:04:37 GMT -5
I understand and you are not the first to want or try this kind of thing. I have a huge amount or research and experiemntation, but due to trolling, I only help people by email where and when I can and limit that quite a bit now.
You will find at the very least, that you are 'hearing' the driver through the mag pups and this is a bit of a problem. The ebow too works in this way, but a problem none the less. Depends what you are happy to compromise with.
The sustainer sounds different from the guitar without it on, it has it's own sound. There are physical problems trying to drive the string from the far end as well. Although limited tothe neck pickup, this is not as much of a limitation as you might think, because it is being driven from around the neck pickup.
The goblin was a prototype of the last versions of 'ultra thin' coils that retrofit into a strat type neck pickup and so is invisible and passive when off.
My tele has the more typical 'old style' 'thin coil' (about 3mm) and was able to get the unit small enough in this kind of DIY version small enough to surface mount to the pickguard. Thin wires slip under teh pickguard, the small circuit under teh bridge pickup and the battery and switchingfitted into the tiny tele control cavity without modification, but it is no 'easy project. There is a sound clip on the tele's gallery entry here.
You mayalso find issues runnig the piezo system from the same battery as the sustaining circuit, the sustainer circuit will always eat batteries as although small, the circuit is essentially a power amp. I saved power by only being used when the sustainer is on and is so unique. The on/off switching automatically disconnects pickups and engages the bridge, when switched off, it returns to what ever the setting of the selector switch so it is very easy to use and functional without fuss. As a result the battery lasts a remarkable length of time if you are not using the sustainer all the time of course. And, unique is that the guitar is not compromised and will operate, with a flat battery or none at all.
However, I am not 'selling them' nor are some of my designs strictly DIY either. I worked on them for over 10 years...I think there are far more rewarding things to thinkabout than to make a guitar hold a note for ever, even auto harmonics and other things the sustaining device can do, a lot more!
There are plenty of other people attempting such things, but not seen much progress and amny of them are 'hate threads' and wont be involved nor attract them here...
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