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Post by ashcatlt on May 1, 2012 17:15:33 GMT -5
My Lil Killers have 15K at the bridge (I've confirmed it myself), and the tele version at the bridge of my hybrid is like 13K. I've never had a problem with them being too dark. In fact, the middle can get a bit ice-picky at times. In series mode the bridge pickup sounds just about right. Course mine have no pots...
There is a noticeable progression of louder and louder as you switch from neck to middle to bridge, but a little messing with the height adjustment screws got it to where it's an almost natural kind of thing with a little boost if you were to switch from neck for rhythm to bridge for lead, yet they still mix pretty nicely in combinations.
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Post by newey on May 1, 2012 17:31:38 GMT -5
I have the Tele bridge Li' Killer on my "Esquire-ish" single pup Tele. It's wired for SC/ Parallel/ Series on the 3-way switch. The SC setting is basically useless, but I do use the parallel setting quite a bit, moreso than the series setting. I have 500K pots and wouldn't describe it as "dark" or "muddy". I use it for my lame attempts at slide, tuned to open E. It's not nearly as bright as the GFS dual-lipstick tube HB I have n the white Strat, but I'd still say it's on the bright end of the scale. The Artist Formerly Known As reTrEaD ("TAFKAr") is right, they're not much for the glassy clean sound, but they do the gritty thing pretty well with a bit of gain on 'em.
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Post by genmce on May 1, 2012 19:19:54 GMT -5
Nice - Parallel - hmmm.. Perhaps that will be on the agenda for the near future, humbuckers switchable LL mode. After another rebuild - from square one, discovered the missing ground wire. Yeah! Or Duh! might be more appropriate. I went back to both 250k push/pulls (for now), ordered some 500k push/pulls (4 of them) should be here soon Thursday. Replaced the strings, that helped the brightness alot, also swapped out tone cap, .047 for .018. I like it better than I did this morning, maybe the new strings and polished frets had something to do with it. FX - removed. I have 6 holes now. What to do with all that real estate...
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Post by genmce on May 2, 2012 5:36:37 GMT -5
FWIW -
Fresh ears this morning and NOT cranky about having to rewire right now. Played the 12 . Tone comments - I am actually getting brightness that is glassy, but as I play I think it is mostly due to the octave strings. That is with the 250k tone pot on 10 and on the bridge (non - coil split) alone. So at the far edge there is some clean glass (tho kinda of shrill).
As for muddiness - I can hear that however it is masked or compensated for by the octave (brand new) strings.
Gritty sounds - it is a bit early (6am) for that and my wife would frown.
So for a frame of reference - the amp I am using is a line 6 spider iv 75. No it's not tubes and was pretty cheap, used ($120). Lots of models and a less then great clean sound to begin with. Much tweaking and I am satisfied with it for what I need. Long ago - used to have a fender twin reverb (miss that amp, wow) but this will do for now.
So back to my original question - I think to get back there I need to actually draw what I have in place. Should I just napkin it and take a picture? It's a mod of Adams with a neck-phase - on tone pp, and neck-on on volume pp - and changes at the 5way have moved the pickup outputs to a more common locations on the 5 way.
So what I would like to have that I don't have. Hums with coil - splits, like bridge hum with neck coil-split. A mix of those like hsh, hss, etc
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Post by newey on May 2, 2012 5:59:15 GMT -5
You certainly can do that, and a diagram would be very helpful moving forward. I use MS Paint for mine (too cheap to buy a real drawing program ). Ohters use different software for drawings. If you are conversant with schematics, that's the best way to start; we can always convert it to a wiring diagram later. If diagrams are your only way to go, we can live with that as well.
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Post by lpf3 on May 2, 2012 9:14:24 GMT -5
FX - removed. I have 6 holes now. What to do with all that real estate... I saw the photo before I read that you removed the FX- & liked the look of the holes........ You could always leave them as is & say they're for cooling. lpf3
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Post by genmce on May 2, 2012 9:29:32 GMT -5
Well I actually have copper foil tape covering them from below.
Stuff is going to stick to the tape and start to look furry. Hmm... maybe hair should come out of the holes.
That might look sexy... opps wrong forum.
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Post by sumgai on May 2, 2012 18:40:26 GMT -5
genny, You can do what lots of players do (and I did for awhile), and that's simply plug the hole with something that looks cool. The common name is "button hole plug", and they can be found in most hardware stores, woodworking supply shops, some electronics supply outlets, etc. Here's an image of a metal one, chrome plated: Obviously there's a tremendous variety out there, at all price points, so the world is your oyster, as they say. Just be sure to get the right size, they're measured by the diameter of the hole to be filled, not the overall diameter of the plug itself. HTH sumgai
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Post by genmce on May 4, 2012 7:11:12 GMT -5
All three (I think) - match set they call it. Marked Neck, Mid, Bridge. I just looked on their site. 6.5k, 10, and 12k for the DC resistance. That seems like a very large jump. Over 50% for each step. Even with 500k pots, you might still be dissatisfied with the tone from these pickups. I'd suggest trying them with the two coils of each pickup wired in parallel rather than in series. This will decrease the inductance by a factor of 4, compared to having the two coils in series. Can you give a diagram example of how to wire one humbucker to a 500 pps to pick between series and parallel or is there a way to wire the pot in there to fade between series and parallel for some sort of in between of the series and parallel. Pps arrived yesterday. I will try to draw a few things today. I'm off, whiplash from a minor car crash. Going to wire different tone caps on the spare pole of the 4pdt switch. Which cap should I use when in humbucker mode? .047 or the .022? Thanks again for all the advice on this. I played it and really like the flexibility that is already there.
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Post by newey on May 4, 2012 14:41:07 GMT -5
Wiring coils in series or in parallel are discrete choices, there is no "in between", it's either/or. So you can't use a pot to move from one to the other.
To wire a series/parallel switch, check in the design modules sub-board above. Such a switch requires a DPDT which can be a push/pull pot if desired.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using ProBoards
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Post by genmce on May 4, 2012 17:30:33 GMT -5
Ok used a program called diagram designer free as part of liberkey suite. Based on www.alloutput.com/Wiring/HSH_wiring_layout_1.pdfFor a SSS and HH I extended to SSS and HHH choose mode from the 4pdt switch My first diagram - go easy on me. 20 options. SSS coil split mode - Neck-On - neck oop 1. n 2. nm 8. Noop 3. m 4. mb 6. mnb 9. Noop 5. b 7. nb 10. Noop All humbucker mode same as above. I have added the choice of cap based on the state of the 4pdt switch. .047 to go with humbucker mode and .022 to go with all coil split mode. I have space on the guitar for 2 more pots or rotaries. I have space for 4 more switches. There are NO coil tap/humbucker combos which I miss. I particularly like the B(hum)+m(sc) setting There are no || settings that I know of. Suggestions for improvement appreciated.
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Post by newey on May 4, 2012 19:08:19 GMT -5
genmce-
Your diagram is good (although the lines could have been wider for legibility). Anyway it should work as you intended except that I am not sure that the middle pickup phasing is wired correctly after you wired it "inside out". I think the red needs to go to hot and white to ground.
But I'm a little unsure on that, let's get a second opinion.
Also, while your way should work OK, I would move the wire that runs from the neck lug on the 5-way to the "neck on" switch. I'd move that wire from the middle lug of the P/P to the top left lug.
That way, you either have the "neck on" with the switch or the neck wired to the 5-way; you don't have two separate paths to output as you show it now. The duplicate paths to the volume pot probably won't matter, but might serve as a source of noise.
But:
Hmmm. Seems to me you don't have several- like, N(HB) + M(SC), M(HB) + N(SC), B(HB) + M(SC), etc.
I don't see where you have this option available. The 4P switch makes all 3 pups either all HB, or all SC.
Well, they're all parallel connections. If you are using the "parallel lines" glyph to signify that there are no duplicated or redundant settings, that is also not correct- the neck on switch duplicates N + M at position 3 on the 5-way, and that combo is also available at position 4 on the 5-way, with the neck off switch set to the 5-way side.
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Post by genmce on May 4, 2012 19:53:21 GMT -5
Right - I was not trying to say I had those interesting combos. I was trying to call attention to humbucker combos which do or at least think I have.
I realize there are duplicated combos.
As a reference point, where should I go from here? I have room for lots of options. I was thinking a switch that makes the neck parallel and the bridge parallel wired in series. I found another 4pdt switch in the junk box. (ham radio leftovers). Just looking for suggestions for using the space I have.
Thanks.
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Post by newey on May 4, 2012 20:36:43 GMT -5
You'd need more poles to do that is my guess. Wiring a HB to select between series/parallel takes 2 poles. Doing the same to 2 HBs means using all 4 poles and you'd need more poles to do N X B. You could add some toggle switches to control the bridge pickup to access additional combos. You have a "Neck switching module" at present, consisting of your neck pickup, a neck phase switch, and a "neck on" switch, implemented by P/P switches. So, add a similar module for the bridge pickup. A bridge OOP switch, wired like your neck switch is wired, would only add on additional combo BOOP + M. And, this is adding another parallel OOP ("POOP"). You might want to consider adding switching to give the bridge HB in parallel as well as series, and then to put it OOP in series as well. The bridge can be made to be in series with whatever is on the 5-way switch, adding a few series combos- B X N, B X M, and B X (M + N). Since you're now filling holes with toggle switches, instead of being limited by P/Ps, get some DPDT On-On-On toggle switches. These can be wired to give some added variations. Here's a few ideas along those lines. Note that, while you get the Bridge coil cut on your existing 4P switch, a separate coil cut switch for the bridge pup alone (e.g., as shown by asmith below) would allow for some of the HB + SC combos.: asmith's series/parallel/phase/coil cut switching, using a DPDT On-On-On and a DPDT On-On
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Post by genmce on May 8, 2012 11:48:48 GMT -5
So is there a good source for these dpdt on-on-ons?
Trying to figure out what to do next.
While living with it as wired above - Still not getting the snappy single coil sound out of position 4 m+b. Tone and vol are now both 500k audio pps. the tone cap on for coil - split (single coil mode) is .022. I still have to crank the tone to 10 all the time - still lacking brightness. Also, I really like the sound out of position 4 m+b on the full humbucker.
Right now things are pretty in control for switching. How to find more useful (to me) combos of pickups without having to keep tearing it apart.
Are there links to samples of the parallel (local in a humbucker) and global between different humbuckers? Same with series... Granted they will sound different with my pickups and such but I need some frame of reference as to whether or not to pursue other options.
Thanks
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Post by genmce on May 8, 2012 18:31:10 GMT -5
Newey - Moved the wire you suggested. On my middle pickup I thought I was supposed to wire it inside out to be reverse for hum canceling.... Should it be different ? Will it make a difference in sound? thanks
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Post by newey on May 8, 2012 20:34:36 GMT -5
For the DPDT On-On-On switches, try Digikey. search.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dllUsually the prices from electronics distributors are much better than from guitar shops. These are pricey no matter where you get them. They're $10.04 each at Digikey, guitar sites usually charge $10.50, so not a huge difference in price. Mouser has them for about the same as Digikey. As for the middle pickup, you do have wired it "inside out". I was questioning whether you had also wired it out-of-phase with the neck and bridge. You would likely notice if it was out of phase, so if you have it all wired up and it doesn't sound OOP in positions 2 and 4, then I was wrong and you have it correct. Check our "Sound Samples" section for comparison of various settings. JohnH has some from his Jimmy Page LP that have series/parallel intra-HB, although that's a substantially different guitar/pickups etc.
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Post by genmce on May 9, 2012 12:23:27 GMT -5
I did the screwdriver (in my case hemostat/heat sink) pull off test. All were in phase in every position - except when i pull the neck out of phase on the pps.
Also - they do not sound oop to me - like when I pull the neck pps.
Switches - I have seen some on ebay from China - are there different on-on-on switches?
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Post by newey on May 9, 2012 19:43:22 GMT -5
There are different brands, and quality levels, but they all operate the same (as far as is known- our member wolf posited the existence of an "all-connected" On-On-On but no one has ever proven that such exist) Here's the switch logic for all types of DPDT switches (excepting On/Off and momentary types):
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Post by ashcatlt on May 10, 2012 23:39:43 GMT -5
This is a little bit back to the derailment re: the GFS pickups, but an interesting observation that I might as well share. Having this set so severely mismatched with the progressively heavier winding toward the bridge means that the neck pickup is actually significantly brighter. The harmonic balance at the neck is still weighted more toward the fundamental, so is generally bassier, but - thanks to less windings and therefore less inductance - it has over an octave of extension at the treble end compared to the bridge HB. It's noticeably more "hi-fi" or "airy" sounding. The bridge pickup is brassy and strident and kind of nasally, but not really what I would call bright. This was true when I had the Lil Killer set in the strat. My hybrid has the hot tele version at the bridge, and a mini-HB in the neck, but the numbers are about the same, as are the audible results. The mini-HB has a bit more chimey kind of bluesy kind of sound than the blades did in the neck position, but there's still that extra bit of air, too. Also I'm just a bit surprised to hear newey saying that he's unhappy with the split sound. I'm not really a huge tone snob. I guess I have hadn't a whole lot of experience with SCs from all over. I did, however, use a Rickenbacker for a main ax with an MIM Fender Tele for backup for quite a number of years. Not too shabby references re: SC tone. Anyway, I find nothing lacking from these pickups when split. The volume difference is pretty severe, and of course we tend to prefer the louder ones, but once I got around that I've found I rather like these sounds. I somewhat prefer the split sound to the parallel sound, though they're close enough that I'll sometimes go parallel just for the noise cancelling. In live performance I had been defaulting to the middle pickup in local series. Gives me a pretty loud, middle of the road sort of balanced tone and I use my hands (mostly picking technique) to modulate overall volume and tone. I have pedals for more dramatic changes. Lately, though, I've found that I'm digging the combination of split neck with split bridge. I can get the same kind of catchall baseline tone from the parallel combination (N+B), then if I want to push my amp further into overdrive or a little boost for leads, I can flip the inter pickup S/P switch to series mode and then if I really want a nasty bitey lead tone I flip the neck phase switch. Overall a nice versatile setup. And I've been getting compliments re: my tone at the open mic lately. The Vox AC4 probably helps I suppose.
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Post by genmce on May 14, 2012 23:30:30 GMT -5
I don't think the pickups are bad. I had/have several things I need to try, before I will make a judgement.
I like the humbucker bridge and neck together very much.
Just need to live with them a bit longer and install a treble bleed.
There is some - body (fullness) when coil split - that feels missing (to me) in most positions. 1,2,3. However, I don't feel like I have an handle on the height of each (pickup) "sweet spot". I am also having a hard time because I don't have a good reference to how I want an electric 12 string to sing.
Thinking - next - try the spin/split on the bridge and neck for different combos of SC and HUM.
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Post by genmce on Aug 20, 2012 13:34:31 GMT -5
Hello - So I let this lay a little while, then came across a deal on 3 SD humbuckers. 2 - 59rs and a jbjr. I still want the switchable HHH and SSS config. I was looking at the DPDT on/on/on switches and have some on the way. I like Newey's idea - and I found www.1728.org/guitar.htmSo I was thinking of taking 1 of the humbuckers and doing a series/coil cut/parallel with one dpdt on/on/on. I see it can be done fairly easily. So my question is which pickup, if I had to choose just one pickup - neck, middle or bridge? I still have the Neck/on for the pp volume and the neck/oop for pp tone. Well after I actually typed that it seems like that would be the spot, neck. Then ... I really like MB combo ... So I there is the Bridge for the series/coilcut/parallel (intrapickup) switch there. Hmmm... trying to find biggest bang for the buck or switch that is. Thanks
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Post by genmce on Aug 24, 2012 14:34:23 GMT -5
If I connect the red and white wires from all three pickups to one point, then switch to ground to simultaneously coil split all three. Will this work - or why would I NOT want to do this? In the split position of the switch (series links grounded), it gets you exactly what you want, for all or any (parallel) combination of the 3 pickups. But when the split switch is in the "normal" position, that common connection between series links (red/white) will result in something entirely different than what you expect. If you select just the neck pickup, you get the (black to red) coil of the neck pickup in series with the parallel combination of all three white to green coils. This obviously won't sound the same as having the neck black to red coil in series with just the neck white to green coil (neck HB). So yeah, you could connect all three series links together, but I don't think you'll want to. So I was poking around and found www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=3lil_hum_1v_2t_5w_3splitsIt seems to say one switch to split all three humbuckers... Perhaps I did not ask the right question. Can you switch all three humbuckers to coil cut with one dpdt switch? It appears that you can. Or I could, that is.
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Post by newey on Aug 24, 2012 19:35:58 GMT -5
genmce-
I don't know from where you pulled that quote of RT's, not from this thread, clearly. So I don't quite get the context, but he seems to be talking about a different scheme, one in which all three pickups' series links are wired together- at least that's what I took from it.
The SD diagram does not do this with "one switch", since it co-opts the unused second pole of the 5-way to split two of the three pickups. One "extra switch", perhaps, but not "one switch".
The second pole of the 5-way is unused only because this scheme uses a master tone control, as opposed to the usual Strat separate tone controls- normally, that second pole is switching between tone pots for N and M pups.
Consider that your original scheme posted above uses a 4PDT switch to do this, but uses only 3 of the 4 poles- the 4th pole switches tone caps.
The SD diagram also uses 3 poles to do the coil cuts- it uses the unused pole of the 5-way, plus both poles of the DPDT Push/Pull pot. It is a neat idea since no extra holes need to be drilled to get this done, but nonetheless it still uses 3 poles.
The two schemes are, pole-wise, equivalent, if we ignore the tone caps switching on the 4PDT version.
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 24, 2012 21:46:25 GMT -5
Newey, the quote was from way back on the first page. Reply #6. If you look closely, the quote-within-the-quote sets the context exactly as you described. All three series links tied together. I think we can all agree that was a bad idea.
You're spot-on about how the SD design uses half of the pickup selector in addition to the DPDT. I'm rarely impressed with the diagrams from SD, but this one is well thought. By using omitting the Middle terminal of the selector, there are never any problems caused by bridging of terminals (position 2 and 4). Clever indeed. AND they "stacked" the coils of the Middle pickup differently than the Bridge and Neck so that hum-canceling will occur in positions 2 and 4, in split mode.
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Post by genmce on Aug 25, 2012 3:27:43 GMT -5
genmce- I don't know from where you pulled that quote of RT's, not from this thread, clearly. So I don't quite get the context, but he seems to be talking about a different scheme, one in which all three pickups' series links are wired together- at least that's what I took from it. Apologies - nested questions I had earlier in thread - should have started a new thread on that - bad form. Should I start a new one? The SD diagram does not use separate tone controls? It looks like it does? I know that my diagram uses only a master tone. I stand corrected, it is using more than "one switch". I had not studied the SD diagram carefully enough. It seemed, at first glance to be doing something interesting with less than I thought necessary.
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Post by newey on Aug 25, 2012 7:35:45 GMT -5
No apologies or new thread needed. As RT noted, that was my fault, I hadn't reaized we were on page 3 here and I didn't go back fra enough to find the quote. But I got the gist anyway. The point is, you can't just run all three series junctions to a single lug and ground that lug via a switch. With three pups, you need three switch poles to split all three at once (you'd need three separate switches to split all three individually, here they're being split simultaneously). My fault again, you're right, it does. I must have been looking at yours, that's the problem toggling between diagrams! They (SD) just moved the tone controls to the pickup side of the switch, which is commonly done when one wants to "free up" the other side of the switch. And, as RT and I both noted, the SD version is doing some interesting things in a fairly minimalist fashion. They preserve hum-canceling in positions 2 and 4 when in SSS mode, just like on a "real" Strat. And a P/P pot is more readily available (and usually cheaper) than a 4PDT switch. Often, economy of design doesn't positively correlate with economy of components, but here it does.
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 26, 2012 22:30:59 GMT -5
They (SD) just moved the tone controls to the pickup side of the switch, which is commonly done when one wants to "free up" the other side of the switch. When doing so, there is a strange little fly in the ointment. The stock wiring with the tone pots being selected by the switch connects one (and only one) pot to the tone cap when the neck pickup (only) is selected. The other pot is connected to the tone pot when the middle pickup is selected. When both neck and middle are selected at the same time, both pots are in parallel. This isn't all that much of a problem. But when the tone pots are connected directly to the pickups, the situation is very different. When both neck and middle pickups are selected at the same time, we have the tone pots in parallel. And since both pickups are directly connected to 'hot', it behaves exactly the same as the stock wiring. But in the Neck only, Middle only, and Middle + Bridge position, we can have unexpected results. Imagine selecting the Neck only and turning the Neck tone control to minimum. Having the Neck tone at minimum causes the tone cap to be connected directly to hot (as it would be with the stock wiring). But unlike the stock wiring, the Middle tone pot is connected from the tone cap (now hot) directly to the Middle pickup. Rotating the Middle tone counter-clockwise blends in the Middle pickup. Some might see this as a 'feature' but I see it as more of a nuisance.
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Post by genmce on Sept 8, 2013 17:54:31 GMT -5
Ok - so this is evolving into an HSH. I found it very interesting what JohnH has going on with his SSM2. I currently have SD humbuckers in the bridge and Neck and a stock strat SC in the middle not rw. Sounds much better than the gfs I had in there. I am considering 1. Using his SSM2 with the addition of series/split/parallel with an on on on switches on both neck and bridge. 2. Neck phase perhaps on a push pull. 3. Middle volume control for duck/quack control. 4. Master volume to control all 5. 1 Master tone 500k 6. 1 series control as per the ssm2 on push pull pot mode switch. Quite a lot to throw in there. As you can see by the earlier images there is plenty of room for 4 knobs and 5 switches as well as stock fender lever switch. What am I getting myself into? I am not sure... I know that actually being able to get around on this will be cumbersome. So why on earth do I want to do this? I really want to be able to identify the sounds I really like and want to use - then pare down to a useable setup - I like the one switch idea in ssm2 and I want to be able to maximize the quack on 2 and 4 when hb coils cut. Maybe I should just back off and just enjoy playing this...
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Post by JohnH on Sept 8, 2013 23:30:53 GMT -5
I see this guitar has had a few versions in its wiring!
I think you could extend the SSM2 design in some ways, but if it goes too far, it may mean its better to start again. The core of the SSM2 idea was splitting off one of the bridge hb coils, to put in series with the neck, and then to have the switch to swap it with the M pickup, to provide another set of options. One thing that it wouldn’t be able to do is have an on/on/on switch for the bridge. Instead, the options of series, single and parallel are all provided by the two modes.
It was also very lucky, in that it turned out that it could set up all the good options with two coils and no bad ones. I was very happy to find it, like it was waiting to be discovered.
I think that, without losing this, you could have:
250k push/pull pot for mode, and series blend.
A push/pull to cut the neck to a single coil, making sure it is the coil that is opposite magnetic polarity to your M pup.
A phase switch on the neck – wire it after the coil cut and you can, in single coil mode, have it swap to the other coil out of phase, to maintain humcanelling with M.
500k log for master volume and tone.
Variable quac k control? I’m not convinced! The basic SSM2 has eight distinct quacks, (or tones in positions 2 and 4) yours will have 20! But adding extra pots to try to moderate the quack could strain duckys delicate voice, by adding load.
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