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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 13:00:02 GMT -5
Hello, 2 of the 6 saddle holes in my kramer 210, equipped with original "floyd rose II" are stripped/worn. I met a friend just 5 minutes ago and he suggested heli-coil. Should i go that path?
PS This tremolo held fine for 21 years till now... but trying to adjust intonation today and ... i saw that the threads were worn. This is supposed to be "steel"?
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 26, 2012 11:33:56 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't see this earlier...been a bit pre-occupied...
Heli-Coils are designed to repair a thread in a blind or through hole to allow you to gain some purchase with the bolt threads. They tend to do their job very well, but only once as a rule. They tend to deteriorate or lose their effectiveness after the first torque down.
They may work well in your case, or they may be an involved process that gains you little in the long run. You could drill out and tap the offending member to allow a larger bolt size, or use a threaded insert, but that's a lot of work on smaller hard to clamp pieces.
IMHO, you've already gotten 20+ years out of this piece of equipment and it doesn't owe you anything at this point. If it were me I'd just replace it. You may be able to locate the part(s) you need individually, but that can be a hassle locating them and there's always the issue of compatibility on older pieces of equipment.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by gitpiddler on Oct 27, 2012 4:44:04 GMT -5
Also a little thread locker goes further than torquing them too tight;)
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 27, 2012 9:35:34 GMT -5
Also a little thread locker goes further than torquing them too tight;) If they adjust, but don't stay, Loctite or Permatex Blue may very well do the job. Both of these allow bolt removal. Watch out for the red stuff as that tends to lean to the permanent side... If neither of these are available in your neck of the world buy the best stuff you can find from a reputable auto parts store and use it sparingly, especially on fine threads. All you want to do is coat the threads, not douse them. You'll need to work fast as this stuff sets up relatively quick. Check the product documentation for the exact setup time. If there is physical movement between the bolt and the threaded hole save your money as thread sealers are not designed for that scenario. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 6:12:34 GMT -5
Cynical, thanx man! (gitpiddler thanx as well)
I haven't seriously played that guitar for over 7-9 years now, and i think that it may have been my fault with over-tightening. I was just trying to pass through a "set up/overhaul" over all my guitars and discovered this while trying to set bridge saddle radius right.
I think i might try the loctite/bison/henkel thread coating glue, the last two i am sure they are based on epoxy, act as "taps" and require redoing the threads, in this case, after i "tap" the hole with glue, i will need to redo the threads with some tool. The size i think is metric M3. If this does not work, then i will have to go to heli-coils or v-coils.
Problem with buying a new one is that new floyd roses are ultra expensive, and this particular one had more than nice performance (excellent sound/sustain, excellent tremolo operation). I recall buying a new genuine floyd rose for another guitar, some 12+ years ago and was not that good as this one. So i would hesitate to go that route before i try all the alternatives. Also this axe is not something i play everyday, to justify the cost of 200 euros (the price of a decent new one).
I'll try several options and let you know.
PS
what you said about heli-coil losing strength after the 1st application got me into thoughts.... most ppl say the threads after doing the heli-coil / v-coil are must more stable than before. But you sure must be talking out of experience. I hope i will know soon.
Thanx!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 7:59:39 GMT -5
Applied the blue loctite today morning inside the hole and around the bolt. I could not feel the effect as far as holding down the saddle is concerned, so i ended up applying some loctite under the saddle as well. (i mean even the most stable bolt would be of no use if the saddle could move beneath the bolt head, right?). I will check how well it went as soon as i get home at night. The 12 hours from initial application expire around 21:30 this evening.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 1, 2012 9:33:58 GMT -5
If you apply Loctite to a bolt, insert it in the threaded hole and it's wobbly or not grabbing the thread then it's time to consider other options. Loctite is a thread sealer. It's designed to allow the bolt a tighter purchase with the threads in the nut or threaded hole.
I'm not sure what effect the Loctite is going to have under the saddle. My guess is whatever it is it isn't what you wanted...or needed...
It may require some research, tooling and thought, but if you have the headroom and meat around the hole it may be to your advantage to go to the next larger size bolt. If it were me that's the option I'd be examining if the Loctite fails.
If you decide to try this make sure you have access to a drill press, drill vice, drill chart, cobalt tap, tap oil or equivalent, T-handle for said tap, fine tooth hacksaw to cut new bolt to exact size, fine file to chamfer after cutting the bolt and a good thread file or die to chase the thread on the bolt after surgery.
It sounds worse than it is, but the actual process is about 45 minutes to redo all the saddles and spec the new bolts.
If the threaded holes in the saddles have opened up enough you may just be able to run a tap for the next bolt size up and save the step of drilling. Without seeing it it's impossible to say.
You may get lucky with the Loctite and I hope you do. If it all goes South we're still here.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 10:25:59 GMT -5
Thanx man!! that sounded scary.... i have no access to drill press, drill vice... smth tells me, and i agree with you on this, that the blue loctite is not gonna prove that strong... anyway, it is just one threaded slot (D string) that has the problem. All others are fine, i adjusted intonation this morning on the rest of the strings, and glued the D saddle approximately to what i would think is correct, judging by the offset on the rest of strings (especially A and low-E). lets see. how about finding a 3mm bolt and a nut of same size and doing it this way under the plate?
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 1, 2012 12:43:50 GMT -5
If you can put up some good detailed and focused shots of the offending members I might be able to steer you in the direction of a good workaround. The less attached you are to the beauty of the repair the easier it will be to find you a workable solution.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Nov 1, 2012 14:50:11 GMT -5
If you can put up some good detailed and focused shots of the offending members I might be able to steer you in the direction of a good workaround. The less attached you are to the beauty of the repair the easier it will be to find you a workable solution. Happy Trails Cynical One I agree, I've been having trouble working out what screws are not working right...intonation? There will likely be some kind of solution, but I don't like nor have floyds, so you need to show the problems to find the solutions!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2012 0:11:44 GMT -5
I think finally its ok. (or almost ok). The blue loctite worked till i tuned the D string to C. The moment i went to D it collapsed. Also i had the high-E saddle stripped. Now i have 3 "neck side" saddle holes stripped (high-E, G and D). By "neck side" i mean the holes from the pair which are from the left side as we look from above. The "bridge side" holes (the right ones) are Ok. G is not a problem since it should be in the "bridge side" hole any way. But D and high-E would potentially have a problem. It ended up, that putting the bolt in the right-side ("bridge side") hole, did not prove much of a problem. Intonation is almost there, (better than before), and the guitar plays fine. However, it seems that the plate is not so strong anymore. If more saddles hole threads strip i will try helicoil. Then Cynical's solution (semi heli-coil, going to 3.5mm. Anyway i think the red loctite would do the job in my case. Good news is that guitar, as is, has some years left to play good! problem with this are the Seymour Duncan live wire metal pups which simply sound ugly with modern effects, distortions, etc... i just made the guitar final, so it is not easy to shoot photos of the problem. Could shoot one or two of the final result tho!
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Post by 4real on Nov 2, 2012 0:18:48 GMT -5
Pictures would help!
Are you meaning the saddle height screws?
Not following why tuning down would 'collapsse' anything, surely that releases tension on the saddles?!
Anything promoted as "metal" to me is a warning that it's going to sound like 'crap' and hyped through apparent 'power' over a decent sound, besides not being versitile for much.
If you tastes have changed or you realize you've been suckered, they will often 'split well' or even run them in parallel to take out the mud sound...I hear quite a few people do this kind of thing to tame and brighten these kinds of things with some success.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 2, 2012 1:10:34 GMT -5
Pyrros, before you go for the red Loctite, please post a few shots of exactly what and where the problems are. From what I believe I understand of your problem, I have a sneaking suspicion that this won't make it better, but you run a good shot at making it worse, or potentially unsalvageable.
Act in haste, repent in leisure...Patience, Grasshopper...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Nov 2, 2012 1:42:54 GMT -5
Those 'locktite' things really are to stop screws coming loose from vibration and such, they certainly wont 'rethread' anything, and it is the thread that takes all the strain on things...so a bit of glue in there sounds like it will do little. I'm not sure what screws they are even or what materials that this floyd is made of. I was under teh impression that a real floyd was 'case hardened' but there were all kinds of licensed versions that are far inferior... So, like getting your car serviced or anything, such duct tape solutions are not something I'd 'pay for' or accept...sometimes perhaps, but if it needs new spark plugs after years of use, then new sparks are required...know what I mean. Fortunately, and in anticipation that these things wear out over time there are all kinds spares available... www.floydrose.com/authentic_parts/parts_FloydRoseOriginal.phpalso... www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Electric_guitar_tremolo_parts/Floyd_Rose_tremolos_and_parts.html I recently had to fix my front door lock, largely a soft aluminium metal, I was able to destroy several machine screws to cut a new slightly oversized thread and fix it strong. But that's because I have a good vice, saw and drill to make this happen and at worse I'd destroy it and have to wrangle a new lock ($100+) out of the landlord...while I waited who knows how long to get the money or 'someone' to fix it. If you ahve a proper 'bolt' suppier you could take the offending part to them and see if they can match the thread and buy a new one, but it may be tricky. I particulaly have problems with things american as they refuse to enter the modern world and use metrics and standards of thread types, but even that is possible...but then, why not buy the 'real thing'... The thing to check and make sure of is exactly want part is the culprit. Is the thread just stripped on the screw itself, or is it the base or whatever it is that is being screwed into...or both? Personally, never had much to do with these things at all. I don't like the locking nut, especially when one can have great locking tuners and nuts...or the need to use keys to lock strings and reduced to fine tuners...not to mention all these weird stringing techniques and parts to go wrong. Besides, with trems generally, you can't really tune down without the whole balance and so all the strings going out with that can you? Perhaps if you go all EVH style and have the thing non-floating, so down only and a lot of spring pressure you could lower the low string a bit as his D-tuner will do...but even then, with a floyd you got a locking nut to play with and sounds like a complete PITA. Intonation with lowering tunings too will go right out, though this is a compromise we kind of have to live with doing that kind of technique.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2012 3:56:01 GMT -5
Pictures would help! Are you meaning the saddle height screws? Not following why tuning down would 'collapsse' anything, surely that releases tension on the saddles?! Anything promoted as "metal" to me is a warning that it's going to sound like 'crap' and hyped through apparent 'power' over a decent sound, besides not being versitile for much. If you tastes have changed or you realize you've been suckered, they will often 'split well' or even run them in parallel to take out the mud sound...I hear quite a few people do this kind of thing to tame and brighten these kinds of things with some success. 4real, i have this guitar for ages, over 20 years. It was shining back in the late 80s with all the boost and tremolo action! It has the finest tremolo sustain/performance/natural harmonics i have ever seen/played (and i have played a lot of guitars with decent tremolos). This guitar sounds so van halen, i am sure you would love it as well, if you played it!!!! It is not the "thrash/nu-metal" modern kind of sound. No!!! it is the classic 80s metal guitar, which was supposed to be plugged in vintage Marshall! It can distort almost anything!! i can even put the headphones str8 into the guitar and listen to it!!! no amp needed!!! The pups are active, which means no chance of coil splitting anything... Besides, this is the way this guitar was supposed to be... And this is the guitar with the least interventions from my part. I only opened it to change batteries. This is ultra heavy as well (weight-wise).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2012 3:57:27 GMT -5
Pyrros, before you go for the red Loctite, please post a few shots of exactly what and where the problems are. From what I believe I understand of your problem, I have a sneaking suspicion that this won't make it better, but you run a good shot at making it worse, or potentially unsalvageable. Act in haste, repent in leisure...Patience, Grasshopper... Happy Trails Cynical One yeah, most probably i wont go the loctite route. But i think the guitar is fine now. Thanx!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2012 4:04:48 GMT -5
Those 'locktite' things really are to stop screws coming loose from vibration and such, they certainly wont 'rethread' anything, and it is the thread that takes all the strain on things...so a bit of glue in there sounds like it will do little. I'm not sure what screws they are even or what materials that this floyd is made of. I was under teh impression that a real floyd was 'case hardened' but there were all kinds of licensed versions that are far inferior... So, like getting your car serviced or anything, such duct tape solutions are not something I'd 'pay for' or accept...sometimes perhaps, but if it needs new spark plugs after years of use, then new sparks are required...know what I mean. Fortunately, and in anticipation that these things wear out over time there are all kinds spares available... www.floydrose.com/authentic_parts/parts_FloydRoseOriginal.phpalso... www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Electric_guitar_tremolo_parts/Floyd_Rose_tremolos_and_parts.html I recently had to fix my front door lock, largely a soft aluminium metal, I was able to destroy several machine screws to cut a new slightly oversized thread and fix it strong. But that's because I have a good vice, saw and drill to make this happen and at worse I'd destroy it and have to wrangle a new lock ($100+) out of the landlord...while I waited who knows how long to get the money or 'someone' to fix it. If you ahve a proper 'bolt' suppier you could take the offending part to them and see if they can match the thread and buy a new one, but it may be tricky. I particulaly have problems with things american as they refuse to enter the modern world and use metrics and standards of thread types, but even that is possible...but then, why not buy the 'real thing'... The thing to check and make sure of is exactly want part is the culprit. Is the thread just stripped on the screw itself, or is it the base or whatever it is that is being screwed into...or both? Personally, never had much to do with these things at all. I don't like the locking nut, especially when one can have great locking tuners and nuts...or the need to use keys to lock strings and reduced to fine tuners...not to mention all these weird stringing techniques and parts to go wrong. Besides, with trems generally, you can't really tune down without the whole balance and so all the strings going out with that can you? Perhaps if you go all EVH style and have the thing non-floating, so down only and a lot of spring pressure you could lower the low string a bit as his D-tuner will do...but even then, with a floyd you got a locking nut to play with and sounds like a complete PITA. Intonation with lowering tunings too will go right out, though this is a compromise we kind of have to live with doing that kind of technique. it is the base plate with stripped holes as shown in the pic, but my tremolo is the "Floyd Rose II", it was the original, hardened, and the proof is that most cheapo plates get stripped after 1-2 applications, mine held there for 20 years....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2012 4:14:33 GMT -5
here are the pikz!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2012 4:05:57 GMT -5
I moved things around and the intonation is almost perfect. (ended up screwing all bolts to the right-side holes - south/lower side as shown in the pic). Now things are almost 100% sane, except from the high-E which is the only saddle that should be bolted to the left-side hole. The end result is shown here : I am 100% happy with the whole overhaul process - result. (taking into account the ideal for this guitar action height). The intonation is 100% correct except from high-E 22th fret, which is almost correct. A little more vibrato or action height and high-E would be there as well, but there is no need. Now, the guitar cannot do nu-metal, modern sounds, or decent low-mid bluesy sounds. In clean, only the neck pup can work. Bridge pup is a power output monster. Can distort anything. So, in cleans, this guitar can play light bluesy staff but it sounds too mid and lacks both high band and low band frequencies. In distorted mode, the neck pup is just great. The bridge is even greater. I can play this thing only with legato, no picking needed! Amazing sustain, tremolo performance, harmonics... crazy mids. In Van Halen kind of thing, mid 80s, shred type, this guitar outperforms both the Ibanez ARZ800 and the Carvin DC135. But all of them are unique and lovely! some day i gotta post some sound clip with each of them... i am even thinking of getting back the other two axes from my home town, and put them in "production" as well!!! anyway, the fix intended here (heli-coil, etc...) most probably was not even needed since the left side of the holes (north/upper as shown in the pic) were not used finally!! thank you all for your input!
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Post by 4real on Nov 3, 2012 4:34:30 GMT -5
Glad it worked out for you...just one thing, photos are good from the start, but if you could shrink them down, perhaps to 30% or crop them or both that would be a super bonus as although the forum is set to auto correct, it has to load the pics first and then shrink them...those with slow connections (ie, me at this time of the month) take for ever to load and pushes everything well over to the right and hard to see.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2012 8:14:15 GMT -5
sure i'll do that, right away!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 9:39:55 GMT -5
I am coming back on this. I did the thread repair job with thread inserts, using a V-coil M3 set. Pics : Holes v-coil'ed were 1st (high E), 2nd (B), and 4th (D).
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Post by studiostriver on Mar 22, 2015 3:34:11 GMT -5
here are the pikz! I just wanna reply that Kramer looks good.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 8:11:31 GMT -5
Hvala,
this is the guitar I was to fit the EMG 85, but I reverted back to the Seymour Duncan livewire metal. It is so 80s! Mids boosted to the sky! The absolute soloing sound. I have not found a single guitar that can do solos like this one. I still remember the day in this shop in Athens in 1990 that I bought this guitar. There was an ESP "Dokken" sign model (IIRC George Lynch sig model), also in the shop, a little more expensive. When I plugged the two, there was no competitor to the Kramer. I brought it home, and gave my 2nd and 3rd concert with this one.
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Post by studiostriver on Mar 22, 2015 13:31:06 GMT -5
Hvala, this is the guitar I was to fit the EMG 85, but I reverted back to the Seymour Duncan livewire metal. It is so 80s! Mids boosted to the sky! The absolute soloing sound. I have not found a single guitar that can do solos like this one. I still remember the day in this shop in Athens in 1990 that I bought this guitar. There was an ESP "Dokken" sign model (IIRC George Lynch sig model), also in the shop, a little more expensive. When I plugged the two, there was no competitor to the Kramer. I brought it home, and gave my 2nd and 3rd concert with this one. I love Kramer and Charvel 80thies guitars very much.Probably if I want to have normal 6 string guitar it would be something like this one.Superstrat rules.The only I would like to have even more is YM Stratocaster scalloped with maple neck,yummy...But that guitar new is expesnive as hell,maybe if I pass by on used one. By the way,any Kramer I ever heard in my life sounded very good,and good built.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 13:38:18 GMT -5
I wish you both the manlmsteen strat and an 80s Kramer! And lots of Sljivovica!
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Post by studiostriver on Mar 23, 2015 9:19:14 GMT -5
I wish you both the manlmsteen strat and an 80s Kramer! And lots of Sljivovica! Thanks.I would settle down with only one.I`m not greedy,and prefer more beer,Irish style ale. Cheers. My opinion that there are good passive pickups with crazy amount of mids who can do the same job as liwevire,but to sound more organic and less compress.If you want that kind of compression you can always use pedal compressor or in some processors like L6 etc,or in mixing process if you connect your guitar gear into computer.But as everything all is about the f...g money.We are not Rockefeller`s.
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