Pulled the trigger for Ibanez UV70p 7-string

[cynical1]

OK, so I thought about all of this for a day and this is what sticks with me:

1.) The video served a few different purposes. It showed that the guitar sounds very good, the trem does what it says on the box, and based on watching you play, neck attachment is a damn important thing on any guitar you play.

2.) That the UV70p 7-string guitar is designed to be played just like you play it. Sadly, it wasn't built to live that lifestyle out of the box...at least not your guitar.

3.) The glue and sawdust will last about as long as "true love" does when you're 15.

One thing about Ibanez "metal" guitars, in general, is that basswood is the wood of choice. The low end Ibanez stuff uses agathis. Both of these woods lend themselves to the "tonal qualities" a Satriani or Vai would go for, and in the case of basswood, has been a standard for this style for decades. They're also relatively soft woods when compared to ash or mahogany, and still a tad softer than alder. (North American alder, not the Asian variety...which is softer than North American alder) While this does give you "that tone", and is not an inferior body wood, it does require certain considerations in the design phase.

Ibanez also seems to prefer screw ferrules to a flat plate for their neck attachment. This design has several advantages, primarily the ability to relieve the access to the upper frets through additional body contours at the back of the neck pocket. It's not a faster or cheaper method either. If you add additional holes you'll need to replicate that design.

It's not as hard as you think, it just requires more tooling and an additional step...and a drill press. You can do these by hand, but it's much more accurate with a drill press.

I can give you my idea on how to remedy the neck attachment situation on your guitar...or at least the way I'd do it if I had the guitar in front of me right now:

1.) The inserts you set the link to would work for the top two existing holes. So, first off, install the two inserts into the top two holes on the neck heel.

2.) I think we can all concede that the two screws at the base of the neck heel are too close to the edge to use inserts. On some ferrules you can make a #12 wood screw fit with a little opening of the original ferrule hole. I don't know what the metric equivalent available is for a #12 screw in Greece, but it's approximately a 5.5mm at the shank diameter. It's best to drag the ferrule to the hardware store to double check the largest screw head is that fits flatly into your ferrule.

3.) Add additional insert\screw(s)into the neck\neck pocket, just like the ones you added the link above. It might not be bad to figure out where the dual truss rod runs on this neck. SG make a good point in that drilling into the truss rod is a very bad thing. You could probably just run a line between the centers of the left and right existing holes respectively, then split the different in locating your holes. But, since you are a regular on the Jemsite, someone there might actually have the skinny on where the dual truss rods actually run on your neck.

I would put two more screws into that neck, bringing the total to 4 inserted screws and two BMF screws at the base of the heel. You could then take said guitar to a riot during the day, then jam all night with no worries in either pursuit.

Based on the video of your playing this scheme allows you to whammy until you get a cramp, and add to the sustain and stability of the instrument.

Kick this around and I can add particulars as needed. This job is no more difficult that the locking nut project.

So, how does that strike you?

Happy Trails

Cynical One

EDIT: I appear to have taken so much time to write my reply that you got one in ahead of me...so please read this one first to preserve continuity.

[Deleted]

Thanx Cyn1,
it seems I missed the point of SG about the truss rod. But also, it puzzles me how the original screws did not hit upon the side titanium KTS rods that this neck has. So besides the truss rod, one has to take care of the side titanium rods as well.

I read your post carefully, and I agree about the 3 courses of action in the end of your text: a) top inserts, b) strong wood screws for the bottom, c) ideally more inserts.

Now, as you said, I made some the mods before your last message. I re-assembled the guitar. It seems much better, I cannot move this by hand any longer, + its initial problem was not stripped threads in the wood but rather stripped heads on the screws IMHO due to having over-long shaft. I used shorter screws (yes I had the original screws, the ferrules and a micrometer with me at the hardware store, they fit like a glove) and I think it will work for some(?) time. Also I aligned the highest/lowest strings, something this guitar never had correctly from the factory.

Let's give it some time to settle down.

From the 3 points above I think #2 is done. The new screws were 5mm x 40mm. The next larger metric screw is 6mm, which IMO is too much and will compromise the stability of the body around the body holes. They do not have this clearance at the moment and I am reluctant to make it 6.5mm->7mm.

IMHO Most of the force is applied to the neck stops, where a total of 90Kg of force may be applied max, and provided the stops are there, the next point of high stress is the top screws. Due to the AANJ (unevenly positioned top screws) there is a lack of balance there, with the upper side being a little stronger. You are absolutely correct that this Ibanez design cannot work for 7-strings, strung up with 10s++ and trem pull ups.

So my theory is that fortified neck stops + top two screws inserts would provide a good result without risking drilling into truss rod + the side titanium rods.

whatcha say?

[cynical1]

More than likely the stiffener and truss rods run down the center, with, probably, some room for a screw at the bottom.

The larger screws will go a long way in keeping things in place. The stops, while present, are not as critical as a good fastener attachment.

I hope the temporary fix holds for you.

HTC1

[Deleted]

Hello,

after 2 days and quite some heavy use, I measured again all clearances (relief, action on all strings, side neck body clearances, string fret end clearances) and the neck is in the same place. Cannot move by bare hands, cannot move by string tension, cannot move by pull ups all the way to the limit.

I really like the inserts idea tho. If this would increase sustain on *some* notes, that would be great. I am thinking of M4 for the body side right side bolts, and M5 for the higher tension neck side left side bolts. That would be more than enough for 9s gauge strings. If the guitar is so stable with just the sawdust reinforcement and shorter screws, it will never have any problem with the inserts.

So, next goal is sustain. As is, the guitar has smth between my old strat (good) and my old partscaster (poor). It is OK, but I'd love to have it sing like my other Ibby the set-in ARZ800!

[Deleted]

Well there have been some updates on this, done about one month ago or so
- I have set it up with ultra low action. The guitar is perfect (not 100% read further).
- I have (IMHO) adjusted the intonation close to perfect, I think. I have used both the 12th fret and the 24th fret to set it.

However what I got is this :


In order to get perfect intonation, saddles had to go way back. The 5 lower strings' saddles had to use the second (right-side) intonation holes.

That put me into thoughts. Maybe the neck is indeed protruding into the pocket? Should I really plug/redrill this time? Would it improve sustain on higher notes? (I suspect that maybe having the pup/pickguard system touching the neck, and also increased contact with basswood might have a negative effect on sustain on frets 22-24).

[newey]

Should you screw with it further? I think you answered your own question when you said:

I have set it up with ultra low action. The guitar is perfect (not 100% read further).
- I have (IMHO) adjusted the intonation close to perfect, I think. I have used both the 12th fret and the 24th fret to set it.

If it's "close to perfect" in action and intonation, the "law of diminishing returns" comes into play. In other words, at some point, you have nowhere to go but down. The risk to overall playability from the modifications is greater than any possible small improvement in sustain, and thus not worth the risk.

We have a saying over here: "The biggest enemy of 'good' is 'perfect'. I'd say play it and be happy, and leave it alone.

[Deleted]

I know Newey, but I will never stop chasing more sustain from those frets 22-24. Eventually I will do something stupid either way. If I screw up I'll go for the inserts.
Overall, I was wandering if I will notice any increase in sustain.

[newey]

Eventually I will do something stupid either way.

[shrug] . . .You have been warned!

I would be just guessing about any increase in sustain, you might well get some more. But there's really no way to test it first. And, there's so many variables involved you can't guarantee it won't be worse.

If you do decide on the inserts, you should consider taking Cyn1's advice as to the drill press. You only have one shot to drill those holes correctly. If it were me, and not owning a drill press, I would have it done by a pro.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2015 18:44:45 GMT -5 newey said:

Eventually I will do something stupid either way.

[shrug] . . .You have been warned!

I would be just guessing about any increase in sustain, you might well get some more. But there's really no way to test it first. And, there's so many variables involved you can't guarantee it won't be worse.

If you do decide on the inserts, you should consider taking Cyn1's advice as to the drill press. You only have one shot to drill those holes correctly. If it were me, and not owning a drill press, I would have it done by a pro.

thanx! I think there is a way to test. I remember when at first I had this problem with the slanted neck pup, I had temporarily managed to get "correct" clearance between the pup and the neck heel, by slightly unscrewing the neck screws, setting the neck, and re-tightening. This was of course unstable, especially under heavy trem pull ups, since the combination of non 100% firm joint and the slightly longer right side screws could not guarantee a perfect joint. (Philosophical question : why did the right-side screws feel slightly longer?? - MAYBE because they were expecting a deeper wood underneath? - WHICH points to the current theory of moving the whole neck 2mm to the left, thus (as one of many side effects) giving back the wood depth that those two screws were expecting)
So, If I redo this re-setting thing, just temporarily, but as firm as i can, to achieve the allegedly theoretical geometry,(which in practical terms means no trem usage at all) and also redo the intonation to be 100% correct with the testing, I might have a clue about what to expect. If this is good, I might go for the inserts, using the sustain argument as an extra excuse to use the inserts solution.

I own a mini portable drill press, I had bought during the adventures with the Carvin's nut. A pro would also be a fine idea.

[Deleted]

Newey, and rest of bros,
The irony is that yesterday, about to be home alone after 1 year, after job instead of going home as usual I went to the biggest hardware store in town (Leroy Merlin) and bought screws/inserts/bolts/wood super strong glue, washers, etc worth 23 EUR.
This morning I tried to do the test I was telling you about, by trying to move the neck a little bit towards the left. Somehow, for some reason, tightening the screws gave a very tight joint, and stretching the system by trem pull ups did not have any effect on the neck's stability. Well, now the answer to what we have all been waiting for : SUSTAIN INCREASED REMARKABLY !!! From 3 seconds on 22th fret to 5 secs and from those lousy weak 2 seconds on 24th to full blown 4+ seconds!!! Now I can almost *bend* on 22th fret and keep the note ringing !!!!!
Needless to say I have some free inserts to give away (not all of them hahahaha I still might do the mod to some other innocent victim in the house ... there are two boltons hanging around who haven't got any attention lately LOL)
New picz :





I dont know if it was the pickguard/neck pup touching the neck's heel, doing the damage, or just the fit of the heel in its pocket. I don't know. The fit was very tight before the mod, so the arguments about loose joint did not apply, something else must be happening. IMO I attribute this to the amount of basswood behind the neck.

[newey]

IMO I attribute this to the amount of basswood behind the neck.

I would think it more likely that the screws were just seated a bit better this time. As I said earlier, there's so many variables involved. In any event, I'm glad you got it to your liking without major trauma to the axe.

As for the inserts, etc, can't you just return them to the store if you don't need them? 23 Euros is not pocket change . . .

[Deleted]

Jun 27, 2015 7:26:54 GMT -5 newey said:

IMO I attribute this to the amount of basswood behind the neck.

I would think it more likely that the screws were just seated a bit better this time. As I said earlier, there's so many variables involved. In any event, I'm glad you got it to your liking without major trauma to the axe.

As for the inserts, etc, can't you just return them to the store if you don't need them? 23 Euros is not pocket change . . .

But the guitar was dead stable and consistent all those months, with screws tightened all the way, heavy trem abuse, and there was no loss of tuning stability, no neck moving during pull ups, arghhhh I have gone through all those setups SO many times to be *that* trivial....... I feel like an idiot.
Now watching the clearance between the neck pup and the fretboard's end, it is just huge, well beyond 2mm, I could very well having avoided sanding in the first place. It was THAT simple?

and smth else, before the last mod, sustain used to be very good all over the fretboard but the last 3 frets. if the screws were not seating well, wouldn't this affect the sustain overall?

I am so puzzled, Newye, I am telling you, sustain on 17th fret was phenomenal (before the last mod of course), could get it to feedback and having it ring forever, also sustain up to 21th fret was good. In 22th fret it started to get much worse, and in 24th fret it was unbearable to the point of preventing me of playing that high on the fretboard. By putting my ear directly on the body, and listening to the notes, by plucking 24th fret (always implying 1st string, cause e.g. 4->7 string's sustain on 24th was just great before the mod), well by ear attached to the body i was sensing less volume than e.g. on 22th. So i formed the theory that basswood cannot "resonate" anything over highest D. Indeed it resonates this D as an natural harmonic of G string 3rd fret pretty loud, but harmonics higher than this not so loud. Now what changed? either less basswood under 22-24 frets, *OR* the whole pickguard system pushing the neck (via the neck pup) had a negative effect.

Point is that either i am a total idiot, if this was *that* easy, or I just didnt take the time to do an exhaustive testing in the first place.

As for the inserts, I opened all the bags, and almost butchered some of the bolts. About the 23 euros, I am afraid I will have to save from somewhere else.... if we still have euro, cause there is great probability going back to the national currency ....

[Deleted]

Some months later, and we are still in EURO!!! + I have some updates for the Ibby!

After my Tech's fix (in late September, one neck hole repaired with rosewood plug), it was much more stable.... till.... I realized that slowly it had shifted again, and string alignment got wrong again. Arghhhhh.

So, what I thought of doing (but thank God didn't) :
- use epoxy wood putty to somehow fill some spots in the neck heel pocket to create
a) some tight fit for the neck's angular movement
b) some kind of neck heel stoppers to help the neck stay in its position in addition to the friction of the neck screws
- drill out, plug with rosewood plugs and re-drill

What I did :
- measured the screws depth after the body, and found out that using 40mm screws (as in left side) in place of the longer right-side ones (the ones which were 45mm by the factory) was a stupid idea. Well, the original 45mm were also stupid since they had no wood to completely tighten, unless they drilled through the fretboard. So, I used some new 45mm *with* washers, so that all 4 screws have 19.5mm-20.5mm length to go into the wood. Fair enough!
- I lightly sanded the neck heel and the pocket in order to make some friction
- I used a sticky sandpaper in the shape of a shim and placed it as a shim


IT ALL WORKED GREAT!!! Sustain was immediately improved! -> upto 5 seconds @24th fret!!! (not always but the possibility is there).

Now what I think is maybe follow the tech's advice and plug/redrill the body holes. He thinks that screwing in the whole system as one, would greatly improve sustain and stability.

Jesus, I can't believe one year later I am just struggling with the same guitar!! (and no I am not selling it, I am so pd off to make it superb!)