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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 15:03:13 GMT -5
Hi again,
just a question, if you let your guitar to hum while you tune it up, what is the note that the tuner senses?
In my case it is G+. 50Hz give perfect G+! For USA it should be 60Hz = B- . Can you check?
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 23, 2015 18:38:53 GMT -5
Hi again, just a question, if you let your guitar to hum while you tune it up, what is the note that the tuner senses? In my case it is G+. 50Hz give perfect G+! For USA it should be 60Hz = B- . Can you check? I don't have to check cause I've seen (and heard, and played to) it enough times. It's not exactly Bb (bass guitar 3rd string 1st fret), but it's close enough for punk rock. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 12:44:48 GMT -5
Thanks Ashcatit!
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 26, 2015 8:50:43 GMT -5
Is guitar shielding (as we have been doing it) a big fat hoax? No, it isn't. Limited in effectiveness for sure, but not a hoax. Before you completely dismiss foil shielding, let me ask you a question. Have you ever seen a guitar cable with mu-metal shielding? Of course the answer is no. instrument cables have braided wire or foil as shielding. Compare the difference between an instrument cable and a speaker cable with 1/4" plugs connecting your guitar to your amp. BIG difference in hum and noise. Would mu-metal be far more effective, especially in the case of a traditional strat with SC pickups and unshielded wires connecting the pickups? Absolutely. But foil is definitely better than nothing. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 9:25:53 GMT -5
Mu-metal or similar LF shielding solutions IMHO cannot be used in guitars for reasons already analyzed in this thread : Either it should be installed around the pups, between the strings and the pups, hence it would simply prevent the strings from disturbing the magnetic field of the pups magnets : no sound, or it should contain the whole guitar, including strings (and consequently the player) all inside a mu-metal box : impractical.
Now as far as the better than nothing is concerned, as also has been shown in this thread, simple aluminum/copper/carbon/etc... shielding does nothing to prevent LF EMF. Might protect against some treble high frequency hiss from Radio Frequencies, but nothing against good old hum. If you notice most sellers that sell guitar shielding materials, supplies and kits, talk about RF not LF. I haven't found one that claims that his/her product can shield against LF EMF.
I am expecting the EMF instrument + the MCL61 film to arrive, then do some tests, then I'll report back.
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 26, 2015 10:24:08 GMT -5
Mu-metal or similar LF shielding solutions cannot be used in guitars for reasons already analyzed in this thread : Either it should be installed around the pups, between the strings and the pups, hence it would simply prevent the strings from disturbing the magnetic field of the pups magnets : no sound, or it should contain the whole guitar, including strings (and consequently the player) all inside a mu-metal box : impractical. If you're saying that shielding on all 6 sides is far superior (but impractical) to shielding on 5 sides, I completely agree. But if you're saying shielding on 5 sides does nothing at all... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 10:31:43 GMT -5
Can you pls explain what are those 5 and 6 sides? I don't understand.
All I am saying, and I have given lots of data in this thread, is that traditional shielding materials (copper, aluminum, etc...) should be about 8mm thick in order to provide some shielding against 50/60Hz hum. And if they do, then it would also shield the magnets against the .... strings.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 26, 2015 11:04:01 GMT -5
My shielded guitars buzz less than my I shielded guitars, and my guitars with good bridge grounds buzz less than my friend's bass which has a layer of finish between the strings and the bridge.
The cable analogy that reTrEaD put forward is all the proof you need. That shield absolutely helps reject LF EM interference, and it does so not by blocking the EM waves, but by making sure that the same waves hit both conductors at the as close to the same time (in phase) and at about the same intensity.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 12:03:02 GMT -5
which are those both conductors?
what are those 5/6 sides?
How are those speaker cables made?
Can anyone give the physics behind what Ashcatit speaks of?
For the sake of comprehensibility of the thread, I think we may assume that
a) the main amount of noise comes from the pups, not the cavity, not the cables.
b) the main amount of noise comes from 50/60Hz interference on the pup's coils, meaning their entire length and not one or two poles.
pls add/correct to the above.
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 26, 2015 12:08:05 GMT -5
Can you pls explain what are those 5 and 6 sides? I don't understand. Consider completely encasing the pickup in a rectangular enclosure of shielding, as you previously described as being impractical because it wouldn't allow the pickup to sense the movement of the strings ... six sides. Now consider the rectangular shielding enclosure without the face between the pickup and the strings ... 5 sides. 6 sides > 5 sides 5 sides > 0 sides All I am saying, and I have given lots of data in this thread, is that traditional shielding materials (copper, aluminum, etc...) should be about 8mm thick in order to provide some shielding against 50/60Hz hum. And if they do, then it would also shield the magnets against the .... strings. Of course thicker is better. But you make it sound as if thin shielding does absolutely nothing. I don't agree. |
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 26, 2015 14:45:01 GMT -5
which are those both conductors? Inner "hot" conductor and shield braid. Two conductors running parallel with neither being a shield braid. Twisting these two wires around each other is better for noise than just running them parallel, but increases capacitance between them, which can be bad for speaker-level runs Actually, that would be a lowercase L. ashcatLT for Lorenzo's Tractor. Not upset or anything, though. I get "it" all the time. |
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Post by ux4484 on Oct 27, 2015 3:44:27 GMT -5
*edit-too much information*
I know from experience and experimentation that star grounding and sheilding has benefits, as well as the possibly of having drawbacks (darkening tone), for me, the benefits outway the drawbacks.
Sheilding is not a hoax, it's not intended to eliminate 60 cycle hum, it's to stop your guitar from being an unbalanced antenna (like an old beer-can TV antenna). Things will overcome it, especially switching power supplies, and high efficiency/frequency ballasts. That you would suggest testing, and averaging it in three dimensions is overkill... It's not that precise a system. If you are cold in a room, do you stand by the heat vent, or the air return? If your guitar hums when you point it at the ceiling... Don't point it at the ceiling.
After WWII, with the explosion of phone service, AT&T (Ma Bell, as we used to say) had tons of problems with hum from neighboring infrastructure equipment near its cable runs. Do you know what stopped much of that? Fiber optic cable. While the connected equipment was still succeptable, the transmission medium was not. Rather than beat their heads against old tech, Bell labs changed the concept to render it almost irrelevant (BTW, US phone companies are phasing out legacy copper phone services over the next five years).
There have been (AIR) some optical pickups tried in the past, which I IMAGINE, are probably immune to EMI of the household kind, perhaps your desire to eliminate 50 cycle hum would be better spent doing that?
(http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Piezo_and_Optical_Bass_Pickups)
As far as wanting to see if you can eliminate 50/60 Hz hum with a 20 pound über-armored guitar... Knock yourself out. IMO, It's more trouble that it's worth. If you have a breakthrough... Just try not making the thread name clickbait about something that basically STARTED this site.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 0:28:06 GMT -5
Of course thicker is better. But you make it sound as if thin shielding does absolutely nothing. I don't agree. I am not sure it works in this "thicker is better, thin is better than nothing", but rather in a "discrete" way, (thickness >= 8mm) can have two discrete values : true, false. Or even if this worked like an analog phenomenon then 0.1m of aluminum (the thickness of common foil) would cut about 1.25% of the noise. How much better than nothing is this? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 0:45:39 GMT -5
*edit-too much information* I know from experience and experimentation that star grounding and sheilding has benefits, as well as the possibly of having drawbacks (darkening tone), for me, the benefits outway the drawbacks. Sheilding is not a hoax, it's not intended to eliminate 60 cycle hum, it's to stop your guitar from being an unbalanced antenna (like an old beer-can TV antenna). Things will overcome it, especially switching power supplies, and high efficiency/frequency ballasts. That you would suggest testing, and averaging it in three dimensions is overkill... It's not that precise a system. If you are cold in a room, do you stand by the heat vent, or the air return? If your guitar hums when you point it at the ceiling... Don't point it at the ceiling. After WWII, with the explosion of phone service, AT&T (Ma Bell, as we used to say) had tons of problems with hum from neighboring infrastructure equipment near its cable runs. Do you know what stopped much of that? Fiber optic cable. While the connected equipment was still succeptable, the transmission medium was not. Rather than beat their heads against old tech, Bell labs changed the concept to render it almost irrelevant (BTW, US phone companies are phasing out legacy copper phone services over the next five years). There have been (AIR) some optical pickups tried in the past, which I IMAGINE, are probably immune to EMI of the household kind, perhaps your desire to eliminate 50 cycle hum would be better spent doing that? (http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Piezo_and_Optical_Bass_Pickups) As far as wanting to see if you can eliminate 50/60 Hz hum with a 20 pound über-armored guitar... Knock yourself out. IMO, It's more trouble that it's worth. If you have a breakthrough... Just try not making the thread name clickbait about something that basically STARTED this site. That's some useful info there Ux! My point is just measure the whole thing in the house, and check whether it is a safe environment to live in, the EMG pups humming more at special times in the day is what started it. I am not a pro musician, nobody cares if my pups hum or not. I just thought I busted some myth and so I tried testing the assumption in public, to see if it holds some truth. Now about the politics involved, I guess due to the very geeky and open minded culture of this community, this is not a problem, but of course any mod can edit it to sound more appropriate. |
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Post by newey on Oct 30, 2015 6:25:05 GMT -5
No need to do so, we don't censor discussions about guitars just because it may get a bit vigorous. Stuff that veers off of guitars I do scrutinize a bit more.
And, ux, I read your original post and didn't think it was too much information, it was a bit of a historical journey through your personal past with guitars. But of course, you are free to edit it as you please, so long as you acknowledge the edit- just as you did. And, your edit was prior to any response, so no loss of the sense of subsequent posts.
Once someone has responded however, posts should not be edited in any substantive way, lest the rest of the thread suffer from a break in continuity.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 8:04:20 GMT -5
I got some news with the supplies I got. The EMF meter works awesome. The shielding film also seems to have a very good behavior. Observations thus far : - The meter measures much lower LF EMF in days than nights, like expected.
- The meter shows that LF is acceptable (in the low green area), whereas RF is alarming at certain points.
- While I still assume that the major problem with the EMGs was LF at nights, I am also sure like you guys said that there is also RF involved.
- The film seems to totally kill any field for the area enclosed to it. Putting the meter inside it, shows 0 everything.
- However, testing the ARZ800 (EMGs) "enclosed" into the film and with two attempted orientations, while having the guitar's top looking to the ceiling, showed small noise reduction
- *BUT*, testing with the cable's jack alone (no guitar), I saw tremendous decrease in hum
- I also tested with the quieter uv70p (Dimarzio Blazes HSH, 2,3,4 being hummy with 3 the hummiest as expected), and I got similar results : while enclosing the guitar in the foil I witnessed only small noise reduction
That's all for the moment, I gotta do smth for the wireless stuff in the house. |
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Post by studiostriver on Dec 3, 2015 10:25:53 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 10:59:58 GMT -5
I run through a APC UPS unit already. But the pups (EMGs) will pickup the noise even if a run the distortion pedal on batteries with earphones (no AC involved). |
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Post by studiostriver on Dec 3, 2015 16:44:03 GMT -5
I run through a APC UPS unit already. But the pups (EMGs) will pickup the noise even if a run the distortion pedal on batteries with earphones (no AC involved). Run them in 18V mode. You will get more headroom in pickups,less noise,and more opened high end. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 0:20:52 GMT -5
no room in this Ibanez  |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 4, 2015 11:38:30 GMT -5
no room in this Ibanez Make some...  HTC1 |
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Post by studiostriver on Dec 4, 2015 15:17:29 GMT -5
no room in this Ibanez Many people put additional battery in cavity,and put foam around it just to secure from trembling,and this mode is not too hard to find online,and its pretty easy as I recall it in my active pickup days.  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 4, 2015 21:13:23 GMT -5
You could try two batteries in series outside the guitar without having to actually install the battery, but it can't actually help, so...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 0:07:24 GMT -5
You could try two batteries in series outside the guitar without having to actually install the battery, but it can't actually help, so... I had tried that, and frankly didn't notice the advertised difference in the tone (mainly because I believe that the EMGs sound fantastic just with 9v). About noise I have to repeat the test. |
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Post by studiostriver on Dec 13, 2015 7:46:40 GMT -5
You could try two batteries in series outside the guitar without having to actually install the battery, but it can't actually help, so... I had tried that, and frankly didn't notice the advertised difference in the tone (mainly because I believe that the EMGs sound fantastic just with 9v). About noise I have to repeat the test. There are lot of people I know on Sevenstring guitar forum who swears on 18v mod.Literally tones of them,with more opened tone and headroom they never back to 9v,and some prefer 9v.Cause it really sounds noticeable different when you recording. I once heard demoing of rhythm guitar player from famous Blind Guardian,German power metal band.He made clips where we could exactly hear whats the difference.More high end,and less compressed tone. He didn`t like it cause it sound different,but he appreciate dynamics in it.Clean tones certainly shines little more as well. Its all up to personal style and taste.But difference is there without any doubt. |
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mikesr1963
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Post by mikesr1963 on Mar 14, 2016 9:09:23 GMT -5
You know the numbers may say it's a hoax but I shielded the Squire Standard strat pictured 10 years ago and it's very close to silent to silent all the time. I didn't use aluminum foil or light copper foil. I bought hobby foil from Michael's. 3 to 4 times as thick as kitchen foil. It did not have tape on the back and it came in sheets the size of notebook paper. I cut and formed it to the body and soldered it together solid. I covered the entire pickguard in thick copper foil as well. I put hot Guitar Fetish pickups in it and Fender American pots and 5 way switch. When I used it in stock form it hummed. Was it the copper or the fact that I followed a wiring diagram correctly, I don't know. I can only say there was a difference.  |
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