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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 12:49:57 GMT -5
Edit - Oh yeah! I listened to your thing and it sounded fine from my phone. Pretty cool tones actually. Well, I think the organ itself sounds good. There's some strange digital "flutter echo" thing happening on the recording that i don't care for at all. Hey thanx man, this quick mix has 3 tracks : 1) "startBristol -b3" (the command line in linux), setup at low speed leslie, with a 800000008 configuration, controlled via vmpk which reads events from the laptop keyboard, and then bristol via jack to the audio input of Ardour 2) Exactly like 1) but set to the high speed leslie 3) setBfree used inside Ardour as a MIDI synthesizer, with leslie set to tremolo, again with a 800000008 configuration, again controlled via vmpk/laptop keyboard . I gotta isolate each one and upload them for you to have a second listening.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 12:54:13 GMT -5
well explained Charlie! thnx! You were very accurate. I agree. We are talking about 3 technologies here. Still strikes me why no COSM in the SY-300, it would make more sense than putting COSM in the end of the chain (after the synthesis part) in the GR55. Maybe Roland has smth cooking for the future? There's two types of COSM modeling - one works on the individual string signals to model a particular instrument, allow alternate tunings/pitch shifts, etc., and the other place for COSM is in emulating the amp, speaker, microphone combination. The VG series and the GP-10 do both kinds of COSM, so they can model a particular guitar playing with a certain modelled pickup selected, through a particular amp with a certain mike, etc. The Roland all-in-one effects units (like the GT-100 )can do the second type of amp/speaker/mike COSM as well as a lot of other effects. But the tube amp/speaker/mike COSM modeling is mostly guitar-oriented. Not to say you couldn't use tube amp distortion/overdrive on a SY300 patch, but usually you would want to do something else. The SY-300 sounds are way, way different than what you want to sound like with a vintage guitar through a vintage amp, etc. Maybe the bottom line is that for now Roland wants you to buy one of their nice new multi-effects units to go with the nice new SY-300, GR-55, etc. IMHO COSM is the DSP part that works like a digital processor on the digital signal rather than the synthesis part from MIDI. Maybe COSM processing could be applied to the output of the already synthesised digital signal, but I take it that they are two distinctive processes, one which takes as input MIDI and synthesises it into PCM and the other that takes PCM and applies transforms on top of it (IMHO COSM). I might miss smth. I found no time to write up my perception of this. Definitely will look into GP-10.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 14:13:40 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Apr 28, 2017 16:26:50 GMT -5
gd,
I have to say, I've also never seen a GP-10, but from what I can see on the web, it looks like nothing more than a poor man's VG-99. (This is like the GR-20, an emasculated version of the GR-33.) Nothing wrong with that, but.... To be polite, Roland had a habit/history of "dumbing down" their rigs. Wrongfully, every generation of their gear has brought about much teeth gnashing, hair pulling and loud protests from guitar players who are lazy, and just want it all to happen "by magic" - they don't want to invest any more time or effort to find and perfect any new sounds. Roland has, unfortunately, responded with ever more "user friendly" equipment, which has meant less power to adjust and control whatever the user of older gear was doing. Sure, we get more 'features', but all that was really just window dressing. What power users valued, and would've liked, was more horsepower, not more storage with factory-configured patches. Ah, the times, they are a'changing.....
Here's where we dissect COSM. Literally, it means Composite Object Sound Modeling. I think I said once before, about 10 years ago, that I knew someone (gumbo and Charlie might also know him) who toured the Roland factory, and got to see exactly where they do the modeling setup. It's a very echo-dead room, and there are microphones everywhere, in order capture the tonality from all directions of whatever is being played at the moment. The computing power used to capture and analyze the waveforms was, literally, enough to lauch a space shuttle off of Cape Canaveral, or so the feller said.
What all that boils down to is that Roland takes the time and effort to make sure they aren't just close, but dead-on with their simulations. As any waveform, by definition, is a result of disturbance over a period of time, the end result is that it can be captured, and reduced to a mathematical formula. Said formula will be very complicated, to be sure, but nonetheless, it's now in the hands of a processor that can manipulate it with aplomb. After all, numbers are nothing more than just.... numbers, eh?
So, regardless of where we draw our referents, COSM is really just a very fancy term for transforming one set of numbers (a waveform) into another set of numbers (a different waveform). As ash points out, this has been going on in workstations for literally years, both analog and digital. In the digital world, we don't risk breaking a piece of acetate tape as we wind it back and forth across the playback head, looking for that exact moment in time for a bit of tweaking - and that's the only discernable difference between the two worlds. Digitally monkeying with audio waveforms has been around for something like 4 decades, at least, but the VG-8 was the first (in 1995) to call it modeling. Line 6 wasn't too far off that mark either, and for all I know, they may have been first to coin the term 'modeling', I dunno.
But Roland has kept the process, making it better and better over time, and only started calling it COSM with the introduction of the VG series. They did it earlier in their keyboards, in fact about 15 years earlier, but I can't pinpoint exactly when they started using the COSM moniker in the keyboard world, so we'll have to let that one slide by for now....
Even so, COSM isn't something to be divided into categories, it's nothing more than a digital manipulation. Depending on the input, you can do lots of things to derive some very interesting sounds. But without a doubt, having the horsepower to do so for six individual strings is the Cat's Meow, make no mistake. Even Roland, who claims that we can now do this with a standard mono guitar output, can't really separate out six different strings's worth of information, the combined (mono) sound is just too rich in harmonics for that. Again as ash notes, good enough might be just that, good enough... but for most of us, we'd miss what six separate processors can do. Lemme give an example here.
Roland units have an effect called "hex fuzz" or "hex distortion". What that really means is that you can dial in exactly how much distortion will be applied to each string. Used judiciously, this means that the normally too-strong distortion found on the low E string will not cause funny glitches ("noise") on some/all of the remaining strings. Ever get everything sounding just right on your axe with a TubeScreamer, and you go to play a chord while the unit is on? Sounded pretty crappy, didn't it? With "hex fuzz", that doesn't happen. Chords, whether two, three or all six strings, sound as clean and pure as a single string note. Trust me, your ears can easily tell the difference.
And even without having ever seen the GP-10, I'd bet a small week's paycheck that it can also do this, that's just Roland's way of doing things.
But the best advice I can give you now is this: mortgage your kids, your wife, your cat, anything, and buy the most powerful toy you can find for sale. Buy used if you have to, but buy something that has more power than you image you could possibly ever use. Take my word for it, you won't be sorry. In fact, about a month after that purchase, you'll be back to whine on our collective shoulder that you wished to Gawd that you bought even more power - what you got is no longer good enough!
And you won't be the first to write that post, I can assure you.
signed, an owner of every Roland guitar unit except the VG-99. No room in the rack for it, sigh. sumgai
p.s. Look at the back of any unit you are considering. If you don't see any MIDI jacks, then pass it by. Period. I'll leave you guess why I say that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 23:32:32 GMT -5
Good Morning SG! Just checked my axes last night for GK pup geometrical compatibility, according to roland.com/V-Guitar/gk3-requirements.html : - the new (well 3 yrs old) uv70p 7-string : no space for the GK due to bridge height from pickguard : 7mm (high E), 7.5mm (low B) cannot accommodate the GK height-wise (>=9mm), also width would be a problem (>=8mm) - Carvin / Kramer are out, due to the HB/floyds, width problem (>=8mm) - The LP-like arz800 can be used, but I hate to put anything on that bridge - the old Aria strat is the only contestant left after elimination of the others BTW, What do you think of the clips?
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Post by sumgai on Apr 29, 2017 10:33:17 GMT -5
gd,
Sorry to hear that some of your previously acquired guitars can't handle the GK pickup, for lack of mounting space. The Strat clone will be a good "test bed" for your mad scientist experiments though.
Of course we're all just talking about money here, and there's only so much of that to go around, we understand. But if you have a guitar that just calls out to you, begging to be played, then you might consider a set of piezo saddles for the bridge of that axe. But that's in the future.... first, we gotta get you up and walking around, before you can run.
I was surprised to see you attempt to think about mounting a hex pickup under 7 strings. I'm sure someone has done it, but I'll bet it didn't last very long before being pulled back off the guitar. But of course, with piezo saddles one could simple connect together the wire leads for the two bottom strings/saddles, and let that connection go to the buffer unit as if it were only the bottom E string.... might work OK, who knows? And there are cases where a player with too many strings has actually mounted two hex pups, and then coupled two GR or VG units side-by-side, that works. Expensive, but if that's what floats your boat.....
Interestingly, I've found that here in the USA, the GR-55 and SY-300 are also very nearly the same price. I'm thinking that Roland has invested a lot of research into making that pitch-to-voltage converter work with a polyphonic signal. Obviously they feel it's working well enough to sell on the market, so maybe I'm being a bit rash in assuming that it can't be done. For sure, I'd have to play with one for awhile before making any more claims. Although, I do have to say, I'd be interested in seeing how well they do the Arpeggiator function.....
I've not yet played your latest sound clip through headphones, but I can honestly say that through my laptop's built-in speakers.... nope, not gonna go there, it's not your fault.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 13:21:44 GMT -5
next attempt with the actual yahama / setBfree / bristol : setbFree left channel , bristol right channel I like the bristol thingy. soundcloud.com/greekdude888/yamaha-setbfree-left-bristrol-rightbristol : stock settings , setBfree 8xxxxxxxx8 , 8xxxxxxxxx8 I gotta shoot some photos. I think I like the result with the bristol. Again, the chain goes like : Yamaha portable grand keyboard -> MIDI setBfree synth as LADSPA plugin in Ardour -> setBfree leslie emulator -> fader Yamaha portable grand keyboard -> MIDI bristol -b3 synth as stand alone linux app -> PCM Audio in Ardour -> GxBooster -> fader
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 13:35:49 GMT -5
I am a fool, I could record both tracks on the same go..... Argghh I gotta do it again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 14:01:03 GMT -5
Yo SG, they claim this : www.graphtech.com/products/brands/ghost is compatible with Roland and the (now dead Axon). What's your take on this? Do they mean smth like the gr55 or some generic Roland synths? What would be a pretty straight forward signal chain in this case?
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Post by sumgai on Apr 29, 2017 14:33:20 GMT -5
gd,
In my first Strat, about 15 or 16 years ago, I installed a Ghost setup - worked like a charm. I sold that axe with everything intact, sorry to say.
For the next Strat, I took a standard GK-2A meant to be mounted on top of the pickguard, disassembled it, and put the pieces underneath - inside of the guitar. Also worked a treat, just ask asmith, he played it for a couple of nights while he was here in the States. (Somewhere in The NutzHouse, I posted a pictorial of that installation.)
Currently, I have a GK-3, with no plans to mount it permanently inside of my Jazzmaster.... but you know how plans change, right?
For some discussion, you can cast around to various forums and groups (Yahoo, Google, FB, that kind of thing). You'll find that many VG users (modelling) prefer the GK pickup under the strings, and the piezo equipment is not so well liked. It would seem that many, if not most, GR players go the other way - piezo is better for tracking more closely, which as we've discussed is more important for synthesis than for modeling.
Seeing as I have both, I toyed with the idea of buying another Ghost set and installing it on the most recent Strat (the one that's now also gone). Having two pickups sounded like it might be the best of both worlds, but eventually I decided against it. For me, either pickup system works just fine, and having only one GK 13-pin cable hanging off my guitar was a good thing. If you accidentally step on this cable and break it, you're out of business until you can hunt up another one. Word of advice - always have a spare 13-pin cable on hand... trust me here. Sadly, the cheap ones on eBar are not worth the money, the factory ones are expensive for a reason. (Yet another drawback to wider adoption, the cost of keeping on hand a spare cable or two will put a large dent in your beer budget!)
My advice is to start out with the lowest cash outlay possible. I'm not trying to dissuade you from something that you feel you need, only gently warning you that going down the MIDI/synth/modelling road can get expensive, in a hurry. That advice I issued above about mortgaging your family and stuff.... I was only kidding! But from the years you've posted here, I'm pretty sure that you'll be sensible.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Apr 29, 2017 20:23:11 GMT -5
I have to say that I hate my 13 pin cable! I've got two of the same. I don't remember the brand, but they're not Roland. The fact that they're about 4 times longer than I'd ever need is one thing, but what really bugs me is how stiff and unweildy they are. They're tough to coil and tough to uncoil and just generally a big bother.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 3:46:07 GMT -5
here's a vid of the whole setup of the same MIDI feed following two separate tracks :
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 12:22:08 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on May 2, 2017 19:03:36 GMT -5
gd,
That's one of the best units available at any time in our guitar-to-synth history. Owners will argue for days without end that it beats Roland in every way, no question for them. There is a backstory to the Axon production units, but this isn't the time or place to go into it.
The only drawback might be that the original company making Axon sold out many years ago. The successor had some rough spots for awhile about staying in business, but they seem to be on top of things now. They have a high reputation about servicing older units in whatever way they can.
As Charlie pointed out, the VGuitarForums has a section devoted to just this unit, so you can always ask experienced people for help. (Sorry to say, once I bought into Roland, I have never seen the need to buy an Axon (nor the Yamaha-branded version of Axon, sold for only a few years). The wife reminds me that I've already spent enough money on this hobby.....
HTH
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 1:33:09 GMT -5
Thanx SG, there are software solutions available like this : www.jamorigin.com/ , migic.com/ also there is this one for linux developers : aubio.org/ . Also I read/saw that the old Linux effects program that I used to like so much : rakarrack.sourceforge.net/ , also had MIDI capabilities, you could feed your software synth with the output of the pitch-to-MIDI conversion . Unfortunately this software is dead. I don't even know who funds aubio but this seems active. In any case, those might be useful for "offline" - batch (non-realtime) processing. E.g. record clean and then convert to MIDI -> synth -> PCM, and then mix with the live audio/MIDI streams.
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Post by gumbo on May 9, 2017 7:44:05 GMT -5
Hmmm...
Maybe I speed-read this thread because I had missed most of it thanks to being OS for the last six weeks..
Has anyone so far spoken of the need for a compatible AMPLIFIER to actually produce the sounds ON STAGE that one hopes they have programmed into their synth unit??
Perhaps when I finally emerge from my fog of jet-lag, I might just enter this conversation with a bit more strength & fortitude..
g-f-b
(...also known as gumbo on the vguitar forum and purveyor of 13-pin jacks under the Synth-Linx brand name... )
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Post by sumgai on May 9, 2017 11:53:04 GMT -5
Well, well, well, as we live and breath. Won't the saints preserve us now, our very own g-f-b is back on line, ready for the onerous duty only he can perform so well.
gumbo, I meant to drop you a PM yesterday, but now's good enough - WELCOME BACK! I figured the FC would call us if something had gone wrong on your adventures, but lacking any such, it seemed that all must be well down there. Glad to hear it.
As to correct amplification, yes I did mention it early on... you'll see it, when the fog lifts.
One last thing. I do hope that if you're gonna be an Operating System, that you don't pull a stunt like the movie Her and run off with the other OSes... that would be sad.
Speaking of movies.... Oh, but I'm stepping on your toes here, aren't I? Best I should leave the thread derailing to the pros, amiright?
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 2:08:05 GMT -5
Hello Gumbo, SG,
In the past w/e I had to change the strings on the 7-string equipped with Edge Zero II-7 trem, and it took me about some 5 hours (change strings, set up : truss rod, trem springs, measurements, redone the intonation, lost a saddle screw whose head got worn, almost lost the high B string - for no obvious reason, 2nd time in a row with daddarios, string stretching, etc...) till I managed to finally tune and lock the nut. Phewwww, that brought me back to the old good (cruel) world of non-computerized instruments. And that felt ... normal!!
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Post by sumgai on May 10, 2017 12:00:35 GMT -5
gd,
Funny you should mention re-tuning.... gumbo and I know a fella who simply puts 6 B strings (0.013) on his Telecaster, plugs into his GR-33, and sets the tuning for each of those B strings to the expected pitch, EADGBE. He says there are many advantages to this, but then again, most synth-guitar players are... weird.
He might have upgraded to the GR-55 by now, I dunno, I lost contact with him some time back. But the moral of the story applies here - you can retune strings individually to different pitches, then save that setting as a "patch". Lot's of patches means lots of different tunings, if that's what you need.
Which reminds me.... One of the nicer features of this kind of setup is that you can copy a patch (factory or user) to a different patch (user only), then modify that new patch, leaving the original unmolested. Presto! two patches that are similar, yet different in some way that you want/need for your performances. Why? Quick access, of course. A simple foot-switch stomp, and you're on the required Tone, without any messing around.
Also of course, this means setting things up ahead of time, which is what many players give up on. They buy a unit, expect a miracle, then realize that there's a lot of work ahead, a lot of learning, etc. Some times, not always but some times, simple is better.
sumgai
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Post by gumbo on May 11, 2017 7:08:15 GMT -5
"....but then again, most synth-guitar players are... weird. " ...right... !!! ...don't all of us have two matching Roland Cube amps so we can enjoy all those lovery patches the way they were meant to be heard in glorious unadulterated STEREO ? ...no offense taken...even though it was probably meant..
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Post by sumgai on May 11, 2017 12:39:38 GMT -5
...no offense taken...even though it was probably meant.. Well, that's one way to put it......
The problem I found in using floor-level amplifiers is projection, i.e. none beyond the first layer of humanity. A PA of almost any sort of quality raises the speakers above the crowd's collective head, and thus the requirement for massive power is greatly reduced. One might have to pay the roadie an additional case of beer for his troubles, but the audience will love it all the more, trust me.
sumgai
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Post by gumbo on May 13, 2017 7:43:15 GMT -5
...no offense taken...even though it was probably meant.. Well, that's one way to put it......
The problem I found in using floor-level amplifiers is projection, i.e. none beyond the first layer of humanity. A PA of almost any sort of quality raises the speakers above the crowd's collective head, and thus the requirement for massive power is greatly reduced. One might have to pay the roadie an additional case of beer for his troubles, but the audience will love it all the more, trust me.
sumgai
Yep, know that one too...
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Post by sumgai on May 13, 2017 10:59:11 GMT -5
Well, that's one way to put it......
The problem I found in using floor-level amplifiers is projection, i.e. none beyond the first layer of humanity. A PA of almost any sort of quality raises the speakers above the crowd's collective head, and thus the requirement for massive power is greatly reduced. One might have to pay the roadie an additional case of beer for his troubles, but the audience will love it all the more, trust me.
sumgai
Yep, know that one too... Well of course you know it, you've stumbled through more live gigs than most players can only dream about getting.... but I guess that's what comes with being old enough to judge, amiright?
But seriously, these are tidbits of knowledge that many players don't consider when buying gear, and I think it's a good idea to keep this kind of hard-won experience on the front burner. Regardless of whether it's just plain old-school analog equipment, or the latest snazzy dog-and-pony act, the physics of sound projection are exactly the same - good quality speakers mounted higher than your head always trump speaker cabinets acting as acoustic jack-hammers trying to disassemble your knees. And yes, I've seen/felt this exact scenario - I once had a Fender 400PS Bassman, and it would literally (and easily!) flutter a pair of bell-bottom jeans. Hell, it single-handedly created micro weather convergence zones, complete with all the thunder you could handle!!
Sadly, the unintended consequence of this Truth is that one tends to lose their hearing even more quickly. Trust me, several thousand dollars' worth of hearing aid still doesn't do the job, it only forefends the inevitable. Even more 'trust me', use hearing protection at all times where the volume level is above the level of normal conversation. I personally guaranteed that you won't curse me out for this advice, come 20 or 30 years hence.
That is all. We now return you your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress......
gd,
What's your latest progress in relation to obtaining that Rock Organ tone you're seeking?
Ya know, it's strange, but almost daily I replay in my head the seminal tunes of Dave Lewis or Dave 'Baby' Cortez, two of the pioneering Hammond players on the so-called 'chitlin circuit'. I happen to think that they got things right, both in tone and in the attractiveness of their musical pieces. Let's see how these come across for you:
Those are just two of my favorites. I'd post more links directly, but as you know, each video will end with a selection of offerings of similar material. You might follow them, or not, as you wish. (These links feature a lot of very old-school stuff from my youth. I think I'm going to be stuck here on the 'puter for the next few hours.... If I'm not back by this time tomorrow, send out the St. Bernard!)
Oh, and yes, I got both my GR-33 and GR-55 to exactly replicate these tones. Roland starts out close, so with some fine-tuning I'm 300 pounds lighter, and set up on stage about an hour quicker - but if you close your eyes, you have to listen closely to tell the difference.
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on May 13, 2017 11:44:08 GMT -5
According to my plans (above), I'm stumbling around YouTube, listening to Hammond Organ stuff.
Here's a video that dissects the Leslie 122. The reason I decided to post it is because it shows in great detail how the two speaker subsets (high and low) actually rotate in opposing directions. That's important to the ear, and one of the reasons that the average person can tell the real thing from an imitation source.
With some smart engineering, and more than a small amount of money, one can imitate this, but it actually takes two output sources, i.e. stereo speakers. If done correctly in the processor, then the highs will appear to be rotating in the opposite direction from the lows, and that's what separates the Real Meal Deal from the wannabes.
Enjoy.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 1:43:12 GMT -5
Great info SG.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 13:41:23 GMT -5
Just tried sy-300 at musicworldexpo in center Athens today. It sucks. Out of the 100 or so presets, I liked 4 or 5, (the hammond being among them). It is truly polyphonic and it has low latency, but the sounds are ridiculous. Maybe it needs heavy tweaking, I don't know. They sell it at 699 EUR. I would surely prefer saving that money for the next 8-string . BTW, they didn't have the gr-55 to give it a try.
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Post by gumbo on May 21, 2017 7:09:35 GMT -5
The SY-300 has its followers AND detractors...and while it's not my cup of tea, it's probably worth having a serious look at the SY-300 Sub-Forum on the Vguitarforum to see what some people have managed to achieve with it.
From all accounts though, SERIOUS tweaking IS the name of the game with that beast.
HTH
FWIW, the GP-10 is worth a look as well...lots of good stuff available with that, and it's about half the price of a GR-55
g-f-b
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 12:12:58 GMT -5
The SY-300 has its followers AND detractors...and while it's not my cup of tea, it's probably worth having a serious look at the SY-300 Sub-Forum on the Vguitarforum to see what some people have managed to achieve with it. From all accounts though, SERIOUS tweaking IS the name of the game with that beast. HTH FWIW, the GP-10 is worth a look as well...lots of good stuff available with that, and it's about half the price of a GR-55 g-f-b Gumbo, thanks , this looks maybe what I should look for. In the meantime, my trusty boss me-25 goes nowhere.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 14:16:36 GMT -5
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Post by gumbo on May 25, 2017 8:26:23 GMT -5
...a lot of words about THAT ONE on the Vguitar Forum too...
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