Post by ozboomer on May 24, 2023 18:27:56 GMT -5
Another theory question that's doing my head in... that came from the comment I've heard so often that diatonic chords (triads) are built by 'stacking 3rds'.
Development of the idea often leads to the comment that stacking 3rds on the 7th of a major scale leads to a 'diminished' chord... and this is where the confusion begins.
Consider:
A "C (fully) Diminished" chord = C - Eb - Gb - Bbb ...has the 5th dropped by 1 semitone(?) and the 7th is dropped by 2 semitones
A "C (half-) diminished" chord = C - Eb - Gb - Bb ...has the 5th dropped by 1 semitone and the 7th is dropped by 1 semitone (the 'half drop' only applies to the 7th = 'minor')
When we're talking about triads, there's no difference in the sound... but we don't use a 2 semitone drop on the 5th (which is what 'diminished' means? ...otherwise we'd say 'minor'? ... or does minor actually mean 'b3' ONLY?)
Having sufficiently broken my brain with this... and (sometimes) being an admitted philistine and slack-a*se and all of that... the next step (has become) to just drop in the dialogue I had with ChatGPT:-
ME: What's the difference between a diminished chord and a half diminished chord
ChatGPT: A diminished chord and a half diminished chord are both types of seventh chords that feature a diminished fifth interval. However, there is a crucial distinction between the two chords in terms of their structure and function.
A diminished chord, often referred to as a fully diminished chord, is constructed using a root, a minor third, a diminished fifth, and a diminished seventh. For example, a C diminished chord would consist of the notes C, Eb, Gb, and Bbb (or A). The diminished seventh interval within the chord creates a dissonant and tense sound.
On the other hand, a half diminished chord, also known as a minor seventh flat five chord or m7â™5 chord, is formed using a root, a minor third, a diminished fifth, and a minor seventh. For instance, a C half diminished chord would consist of the notes C, Eb, Gb, and Bb. The combination of the diminished fifth and minor seventh intervals produces a distinct, jazzy, and somewhat melancholic quality.
In functional terms, diminished chords often serve as dominant chords in music. They frequently resolve to a tonic or a chord with a root a minor third below the root of the diminished chord. For example, a B diminished chord would typically resolve to a C major chord or a C minor chord.
Half diminished chords, on the other hand, commonly function as ii chords in a minor key or as a substitute for dominant chords. In the context of a ii-V-I progression, where the ii chord is a minor seventh, the half diminished chord is frequently used. For instance, in the key of C minor, the progression Dm7â™5-G7-Cm can be used.
To summarize, the main difference between a diminished chord and a half diminished chord lies in the intervals they contain and their functional roles within music. The diminished chord features a diminished seventh, while the half diminished chord contains a minor seventh. Additionally, diminished chords often act as dominant chords, while half diminished chords commonly serve as ii chords or substitutes for dominant chords.
ME: so what's the difference between a minor interval and a diminished interval?
ChatGPT: A minor interval and a diminished interval are both types of smaller intervals in music, but they have distinct characteristics.
A minor interval is the smaller of the two common intervals between two notes. It refers to a reduction of the major interval by one half step or one semitone. For example, the distance between C and Eb is a minor third, and the distance between G and Bb is a minor third as well. In terms of semitones, a minor third consists of three semitones, and a minor second consists of one semitone.
On the other hand, a diminished interval is even smaller than a minor interval. It occurs when a perfect or minor interval is further reduced by one semitone or half step. In other words, a diminished interval is a minor interval that has been further diminished. For example, the distance between C and Ebb is a diminished third, and the distance between G and Bbb is a diminished third as well. In semitones, a diminished third consists of two semitones, and a diminished second consists of zero semitones.
To summarize, the difference between a minor interval and a diminished interval lies in their size. A minor interval is the smaller of the two common intervals, reduced by one half step, while a diminished interval is even smaller, reduced by two half steps.
ME: ok.. so what are the notes in both the B fully diminished .... and the B half diminished chords
ChatGPT: The B fully diminished chord and the B half diminished chord consist of different sets of notes. Let's break down the notes in each chord:
B fully diminished chord:
The B fully diminished chord is constructed using the root B, a minor third (D), a diminished fifth (F), and a diminished seventh (Ab). So, the notes in a B fully diminished chord are B, D, F, and Ab.
B half diminished chord:
The B half diminished chord is formed with the root B, a minor third (D), a diminished fifth (F), and a minor seventh (A). Therefore, the notes in a B half diminished chord are B, D, F, and A.
To summarize, the B fully diminished chord consists of the notes B, D, F, and Ab, while the B half diminished chord consists of the notes B, D, F, and A.
ME: why is a diminished fifth a fifth dropped by 1 semitone.. but a diminished seventh is a seventh dropped by 2 semitones.. but they're both called a 'diminished interval'?
ChatGPT: I apologize for any confusion caused. The terms "diminished fifth" and "diminished seventh" can indeed be misleading due to the difference in the number of semitones they represent.
A diminished interval, in its basic definition, means that the interval is one half step or semitone smaller than its corresponding perfect or major interval. However, the specific intervals labeled as "diminished" have historical reasons behind their names.
In traditional Western music theory, a perfect fifth is typically represented by seven semitones, while a perfect octave is represented by twelve semitones. A diminished fifth, therefore, refers to a fifth interval that is reduced by one semitone from the perfect fifth. This interval is equivalent to six semitones. The term "diminished" here is used to describe the diminished size compared to the perfect fifth.
Similarly, a perfect seventh interval is traditionally associated with eleven semitones, while a perfect octave is twelve semitones. In this context, a diminished seventh interval is one semitone smaller than the perfect seventh, measuring ten semitones. Again, the term "diminished" refers to the diminished size compared to the perfect seventh.
It's worth noting that the use of the term "diminished" in these intervals can be confusing due to its association with reducing or dropping by a specific number of semitones. However, in music theory, the term "diminished" is used to indicate the smaller size of an interval in relation to its perfect or major counterpart, regardless of the specific number of semitones involved.
To summarize, a diminished fifth is a fifth interval reduced by one semitone, while a diminished seventh is a seventh interval reduced by two semitones. The term "diminished" in these intervals refers to their smaller size compared to the corresponding perfect or major intervals, despite the difference in the number of semitones they represent.
ME: That is an explanation of the definition of what the diminished 5th (6 semitones instead of 7 semitones) is and what the diminished 7th is... but it doesn't explain why the same term is used to describe different changes in semitone differences
ChatGPT: You're right, and I apologize for not addressing that aspect directly. The reason the term "diminished" is used to describe both the diminished fifth and diminished seventh intervals is rooted in the historical development of music theory.
The term "diminished" in this context refers to the alteration of a perfect or major interval, reducing it by a specific amount. In early music theory, these intervals were considered to be dissonant and unstable compared to their perfect or major counterparts. The term "diminished" was used to signify this diminished or reduced quality in relation to the perfect or major intervals.
While the actual number of semitones reduced may differ between the diminished fifth (reduced by one semitone) and the diminished seventh (reduced by two semitones), the term "diminished" is applied to both because they share the characteristic of being smaller or diminished versions of their respective intervals.
It's important to note that the term "diminished" is used differently in these contexts compared to its use in chord terminology. In chords, "diminished" typically refers to the diminished triad or diminished seventh chord, where it specifically indicates the presence of a diminished fifth interval.
In summary, the use of the term "diminished" to describe both the diminished fifth and diminished seventh intervals stems from historical musical conventions, emphasizing their diminished or reduced nature compared to perfect or major intervals, despite the difference in the specific number of semitones involved.
ME: So, in terms of chords, we have:
* a (fully) diminished 7th chord = a perfect 5th reduced by 2 semitones and a perfect 7th reduced by 2 seimtones
* a half-diminished 7th chord = a perfect 5th reduced by 2 semitones and a perfect 7th reduced by 1 semitone
* a (fully) diminished chord = a perfect 5th reduced by 2 semitones.
ChatGPT: Almost! Let's clarify the descriptions of the chords:
A (fully) diminished 7th chord: This chord consists of a diminished triad (root, minor third, diminished fifth) and a diminished seventh. So, it includes a perfect fifth reduced by 2 semitones, a minor seventh reduced by 2 semitones, and a minor third.
A half-diminished 7th chord: This chord includes a diminished triad and a minor seventh. It consists of a root, minor third, diminished fifth, and a minor seventh. So, it features a perfect fifth reduced by 2 semitones and a minor seventh reduced by 1 semitone.
A (fully) diminished chord: This chord consists of a diminished triad (root, minor third, diminished fifth). It features a perfect fifth reduced by 2 semitones and a minor third.
To summarize:
A (fully) diminished 7th chord: Root, minor third, diminished fifth, and diminished seventh.
A half-diminished 7th chord: Root, minor third, diminished fifth, and minor seventh.
A (fully) diminished chord: Root, minor third, and diminished fifth.
Remember that the distinction between the (fully) diminished 7th chord and the half-diminished 7th chord lies in the type of seventh interval they contain.
ME: So, is it fair to say a minor interval is a perfect interval reduced by 1 semitone.. and a diminished interval is a perfect interval reduced by 2 semitones.. and a half-diminished interval is a perfect interval reduced by 1 semitone?
ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion caused, but I need to clarify the terminology.
In music theory, the terms "minor interval," "diminished interval," and "half-diminished interval" are not commonly used. Instead, we use the terms "minor interval," "diminished interval," and "augmented interval" to describe alterations of perfect or major intervals.
To clarify:
A minor interval refers to reducing a major or perfect interval by one semitone. For example, a major third (4 semitones) reduced by one semitone becomes a minor third (3 semitones).
A diminished interval refers to reducing a perfect or augmented interval by two semitones. For example, a perfect fifth (7 semitones) reduced by two semitones becomes a diminished fifth (6 semitones).
An augmented interval refers to increasing a perfect or major interval by one semitone. For example, a perfect fourth (5 semitones) increased by one semitone becomes an augmented fourth or tritone (6 semitones).
However, it's important to note that the terms "diminished interval" and "augmented interval" are typically used when referring to alterations of perfect intervals, such as the perfect fourth or perfect fifth, rather than alterations of major intervals.
To summarize:
A minor interval refers to reducing a major or perfect interval by one semitone.
A diminished interval refers to reducing a perfect or augmented interval by two semitones.
An augmented interval refers to increasing a perfect or major interval by one semitone.
Please let me know if you have any further questions!
ME: So, why is the tri-tone referred to as an 'augmented 4th' AND a 'diminished 5th' as from what we've just discussed, we'd describe the the 'augmented 4th' as 6 semitones ...but the 'diminished 5th' would be 5 semitones?
ChatGPT: You're correct in observing that the tritone, which is an interval spanning three whole tones or six semitones, can be described as both an "augmented fourth" and a "diminished fifth." This naming discrepancy arises due to historical and theoretical conventions.
In traditional music theory, intervals were often labeled based on their relationship to the diatonic scale and the concept of perfect intervals. The tritone, when measured within a diatonic context, falls between the perfect fourth (spanning five semitones) and the perfect fifth (spanning seven semitones). Since the tritone spans more semitones than a perfect fourth, it was referred to as an "augmented fourth."
However, when considering the root note and the fifth of a major or minor scale, the tritone is diminished compared to the perfect fifth by one semitone. In this sense, it can also be described as a "diminished fifth."
The choice of terminology often depends on the musical context and the theoretical framework being used. The term "tritone" itself is neutral and does not imply augmentation or diminishment. The specific labels of "augmented fourth" or "diminished fifth" are applied based on historical conventions, harmonic function, and melodic context.
To summarize:
The tritone spans six semitones and is commonly referred to as both an "augmented fourth" and a "diminished fifth."
The choice of terminology depends on the historical context, the theoretical framework, and the specific musical context in which the interval is being discussed.
It's important to be aware of these different terminologies and understand that they can be used interchangeably to refer to the same interval, the tritone.
--- 000 ---
I'm still ultimately confused by this silly thing...
So, what do YOU think?... and how do you explain the 'inconsistent'(?) usage of the 'diminished' word... and how 'should' it be used in an 'interval' discussion compared to a 'chord' discussion? What the heck ARE the rules?
Development of the idea often leads to the comment that stacking 3rds on the 7th of a major scale leads to a 'diminished' chord... and this is where the confusion begins.
Consider:
A "C (fully) Diminished" chord = C - Eb - Gb - Bbb ...has the 5th dropped by 1 semitone(?) and the 7th is dropped by 2 semitones
A "C (half-) diminished" chord = C - Eb - Gb - Bb ...has the 5th dropped by 1 semitone and the 7th is dropped by 1 semitone (the 'half drop' only applies to the 7th = 'minor')
When we're talking about triads, there's no difference in the sound... but we don't use a 2 semitone drop on the 5th (which is what 'diminished' means? ...otherwise we'd say 'minor'? ... or does minor actually mean 'b3' ONLY?)
Having sufficiently broken my brain with this... and (sometimes) being an admitted philistine and slack-a*se and all of that... the next step (has become) to just drop in the dialogue I had with ChatGPT:-
ME: What's the difference between a diminished chord and a half diminished chord
ChatGPT: A diminished chord and a half diminished chord are both types of seventh chords that feature a diminished fifth interval. However, there is a crucial distinction between the two chords in terms of their structure and function.
A diminished chord, often referred to as a fully diminished chord, is constructed using a root, a minor third, a diminished fifth, and a diminished seventh. For example, a C diminished chord would consist of the notes C, Eb, Gb, and Bbb (or A). The diminished seventh interval within the chord creates a dissonant and tense sound.
On the other hand, a half diminished chord, also known as a minor seventh flat five chord or m7â™5 chord, is formed using a root, a minor third, a diminished fifth, and a minor seventh. For instance, a C half diminished chord would consist of the notes C, Eb, Gb, and Bb. The combination of the diminished fifth and minor seventh intervals produces a distinct, jazzy, and somewhat melancholic quality.
In functional terms, diminished chords often serve as dominant chords in music. They frequently resolve to a tonic or a chord with a root a minor third below the root of the diminished chord. For example, a B diminished chord would typically resolve to a C major chord or a C minor chord.
Half diminished chords, on the other hand, commonly function as ii chords in a minor key or as a substitute for dominant chords. In the context of a ii-V-I progression, where the ii chord is a minor seventh, the half diminished chord is frequently used. For instance, in the key of C minor, the progression Dm7â™5-G7-Cm can be used.
To summarize, the main difference between a diminished chord and a half diminished chord lies in the intervals they contain and their functional roles within music. The diminished chord features a diminished seventh, while the half diminished chord contains a minor seventh. Additionally, diminished chords often act as dominant chords, while half diminished chords commonly serve as ii chords or substitutes for dominant chords.
ME: so what's the difference between a minor interval and a diminished interval?
ChatGPT: A minor interval and a diminished interval are both types of smaller intervals in music, but they have distinct characteristics.
A minor interval is the smaller of the two common intervals between two notes. It refers to a reduction of the major interval by one half step or one semitone. For example, the distance between C and Eb is a minor third, and the distance between G and Bb is a minor third as well. In terms of semitones, a minor third consists of three semitones, and a minor second consists of one semitone.
On the other hand, a diminished interval is even smaller than a minor interval. It occurs when a perfect or minor interval is further reduced by one semitone or half step. In other words, a diminished interval is a minor interval that has been further diminished. For example, the distance between C and Ebb is a diminished third, and the distance between G and Bbb is a diminished third as well. In semitones, a diminished third consists of two semitones, and a diminished second consists of zero semitones.
To summarize, the difference between a minor interval and a diminished interval lies in their size. A minor interval is the smaller of the two common intervals, reduced by one half step, while a diminished interval is even smaller, reduced by two half steps.
ME: ok.. so what are the notes in both the B fully diminished .... and the B half diminished chords
ChatGPT: The B fully diminished chord and the B half diminished chord consist of different sets of notes. Let's break down the notes in each chord:
B fully diminished chord:
The B fully diminished chord is constructed using the root B, a minor third (D), a diminished fifth (F), and a diminished seventh (Ab). So, the notes in a B fully diminished chord are B, D, F, and Ab.
B half diminished chord:
The B half diminished chord is formed with the root B, a minor third (D), a diminished fifth (F), and a minor seventh (A). Therefore, the notes in a B half diminished chord are B, D, F, and A.
To summarize, the B fully diminished chord consists of the notes B, D, F, and Ab, while the B half diminished chord consists of the notes B, D, F, and A.
ME: why is a diminished fifth a fifth dropped by 1 semitone.. but a diminished seventh is a seventh dropped by 2 semitones.. but they're both called a 'diminished interval'?
ChatGPT: I apologize for any confusion caused. The terms "diminished fifth" and "diminished seventh" can indeed be misleading due to the difference in the number of semitones they represent.
A diminished interval, in its basic definition, means that the interval is one half step or semitone smaller than its corresponding perfect or major interval. However, the specific intervals labeled as "diminished" have historical reasons behind their names.
In traditional Western music theory, a perfect fifth is typically represented by seven semitones, while a perfect octave is represented by twelve semitones. A diminished fifth, therefore, refers to a fifth interval that is reduced by one semitone from the perfect fifth. This interval is equivalent to six semitones. The term "diminished" here is used to describe the diminished size compared to the perfect fifth.
Similarly, a perfect seventh interval is traditionally associated with eleven semitones, while a perfect octave is twelve semitones. In this context, a diminished seventh interval is one semitone smaller than the perfect seventh, measuring ten semitones. Again, the term "diminished" refers to the diminished size compared to the perfect seventh.
It's worth noting that the use of the term "diminished" in these intervals can be confusing due to its association with reducing or dropping by a specific number of semitones. However, in music theory, the term "diminished" is used to indicate the smaller size of an interval in relation to its perfect or major counterpart, regardless of the specific number of semitones involved.
To summarize, a diminished fifth is a fifth interval reduced by one semitone, while a diminished seventh is a seventh interval reduced by two semitones. The term "diminished" in these intervals refers to their smaller size compared to the corresponding perfect or major intervals, despite the difference in the number of semitones they represent.
ME: That is an explanation of the definition of what the diminished 5th (6 semitones instead of 7 semitones) is and what the diminished 7th is... but it doesn't explain why the same term is used to describe different changes in semitone differences
ChatGPT: You're right, and I apologize for not addressing that aspect directly. The reason the term "diminished" is used to describe both the diminished fifth and diminished seventh intervals is rooted in the historical development of music theory.
The term "diminished" in this context refers to the alteration of a perfect or major interval, reducing it by a specific amount. In early music theory, these intervals were considered to be dissonant and unstable compared to their perfect or major counterparts. The term "diminished" was used to signify this diminished or reduced quality in relation to the perfect or major intervals.
While the actual number of semitones reduced may differ between the diminished fifth (reduced by one semitone) and the diminished seventh (reduced by two semitones), the term "diminished" is applied to both because they share the characteristic of being smaller or diminished versions of their respective intervals.
It's important to note that the term "diminished" is used differently in these contexts compared to its use in chord terminology. In chords, "diminished" typically refers to the diminished triad or diminished seventh chord, where it specifically indicates the presence of a diminished fifth interval.
In summary, the use of the term "diminished" to describe both the diminished fifth and diminished seventh intervals stems from historical musical conventions, emphasizing their diminished or reduced nature compared to perfect or major intervals, despite the difference in the specific number of semitones involved.
ME: So, in terms of chords, we have:
* a (fully) diminished 7th chord = a perfect 5th reduced by 2 semitones and a perfect 7th reduced by 2 seimtones
* a half-diminished 7th chord = a perfect 5th reduced by 2 semitones and a perfect 7th reduced by 1 semitone
* a (fully) diminished chord = a perfect 5th reduced by 2 semitones.
ChatGPT: Almost! Let's clarify the descriptions of the chords:
A (fully) diminished 7th chord: This chord consists of a diminished triad (root, minor third, diminished fifth) and a diminished seventh. So, it includes a perfect fifth reduced by 2 semitones, a minor seventh reduced by 2 semitones, and a minor third.
A half-diminished 7th chord: This chord includes a diminished triad and a minor seventh. It consists of a root, minor third, diminished fifth, and a minor seventh. So, it features a perfect fifth reduced by 2 semitones and a minor seventh reduced by 1 semitone.
A (fully) diminished chord: This chord consists of a diminished triad (root, minor third, diminished fifth). It features a perfect fifth reduced by 2 semitones and a minor third.
To summarize:
A (fully) diminished 7th chord: Root, minor third, diminished fifth, and diminished seventh.
A half-diminished 7th chord: Root, minor third, diminished fifth, and minor seventh.
A (fully) diminished chord: Root, minor third, and diminished fifth.
Remember that the distinction between the (fully) diminished 7th chord and the half-diminished 7th chord lies in the type of seventh interval they contain.
ME: So, is it fair to say a minor interval is a perfect interval reduced by 1 semitone.. and a diminished interval is a perfect interval reduced by 2 semitones.. and a half-diminished interval is a perfect interval reduced by 1 semitone?
ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion caused, but I need to clarify the terminology.
In music theory, the terms "minor interval," "diminished interval," and "half-diminished interval" are not commonly used. Instead, we use the terms "minor interval," "diminished interval," and "augmented interval" to describe alterations of perfect or major intervals.
To clarify:
A minor interval refers to reducing a major or perfect interval by one semitone. For example, a major third (4 semitones) reduced by one semitone becomes a minor third (3 semitones).
A diminished interval refers to reducing a perfect or augmented interval by two semitones. For example, a perfect fifth (7 semitones) reduced by two semitones becomes a diminished fifth (6 semitones).
An augmented interval refers to increasing a perfect or major interval by one semitone. For example, a perfect fourth (5 semitones) increased by one semitone becomes an augmented fourth or tritone (6 semitones).
However, it's important to note that the terms "diminished interval" and "augmented interval" are typically used when referring to alterations of perfect intervals, such as the perfect fourth or perfect fifth, rather than alterations of major intervals.
To summarize:
A minor interval refers to reducing a major or perfect interval by one semitone.
A diminished interval refers to reducing a perfect or augmented interval by two semitones.
An augmented interval refers to increasing a perfect or major interval by one semitone.
Please let me know if you have any further questions!
ME: So, why is the tri-tone referred to as an 'augmented 4th' AND a 'diminished 5th' as from what we've just discussed, we'd describe the the 'augmented 4th' as 6 semitones ...but the 'diminished 5th' would be 5 semitones?
ChatGPT: You're correct in observing that the tritone, which is an interval spanning three whole tones or six semitones, can be described as both an "augmented fourth" and a "diminished fifth." This naming discrepancy arises due to historical and theoretical conventions.
In traditional music theory, intervals were often labeled based on their relationship to the diatonic scale and the concept of perfect intervals. The tritone, when measured within a diatonic context, falls between the perfect fourth (spanning five semitones) and the perfect fifth (spanning seven semitones). Since the tritone spans more semitones than a perfect fourth, it was referred to as an "augmented fourth."
However, when considering the root note and the fifth of a major or minor scale, the tritone is diminished compared to the perfect fifth by one semitone. In this sense, it can also be described as a "diminished fifth."
The choice of terminology often depends on the musical context and the theoretical framework being used. The term "tritone" itself is neutral and does not imply augmentation or diminishment. The specific labels of "augmented fourth" or "diminished fifth" are applied based on historical conventions, harmonic function, and melodic context.
To summarize:
The tritone spans six semitones and is commonly referred to as both an "augmented fourth" and a "diminished fifth."
The choice of terminology depends on the historical context, the theoretical framework, and the specific musical context in which the interval is being discussed.
It's important to be aware of these different terminologies and understand that they can be used interchangeably to refer to the same interval, the tritone.
--- 000 ---
I'm still ultimately confused by this silly thing...
So, what do YOU think?... and how do you explain the 'inconsistent'(?) usage of the 'diminished' word... and how 'should' it be used in an 'interval' discussion compared to a 'chord' discussion? What the heck ARE the rules?
You musicians have conventions, and at that, various "cliques" within your realm have differing conventions that sometimes coincide, and sometimes don't.
But when I was playing, I was more into alternate chords. We all of us heard this first with the Ventures on Perfidia. (Oooh, again, that tune is from the jazz-pop era, by Prez Parado, in 1955, and it was definitely jazzier.) Anyway, instead of C-Am-F-G, the introduction goes C-Em-Dm-G.... and during the standard refrain, the progression goes C-Am-Dm-G. I"ll leave you to work out the details (or consult with any number of YouTube videos on the topic of alternate chords), but just playing them out loud will show that they are pleasing to the ear, and a somewhat refreshing change from the standard I-iv-IV-V.
