Which pkups for MIJapan late'50's Strat.

[mitch88]

Could i get some info on what tech specs to look for to replace the ceramic pkups in my '92-'93 MIJapan late '50's Strat for this to sound as a late '50's Strat?
Im not looking to change what it was made to be, so Mid to late '50's is fine with me, as i dont like Ceramic pkups.

[gckelloch]

One thing to consider that makes a difference in the high-end is that short guitar cables were the norm back then, adding up to ~200pF. If you don't have something like that, you can get a very good low capacitance 10-15' cable pretty cheap here with noiseless HiCon connectors, if you can solder them yourself:

store.haveinc.com/p-62046-sommer-cable-300-0091-sc-spirit-llx-low-loss-instrument-cable-per-foot.aspx?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAibeuBhAAEiwAiXBoJFVmEoya-Vt3Rh2Szq2R5KKXjflGYKKdQKnjPNy6XW6PyHYBXHO1YBoCl-8QAvD_BwE

Mid to late 50's Fender pickups could have either AII, AIII or AV poles and a fairly wide inductance range, but would have 42AWG HF wire. A good inexpensive example is the Tonerider Surfari set. They are fairly typical inductance with extended sparkling highs, are not harsh, and the modern stagger makes more sense with a plain G string, as well as for a fatter high E sound. You can even get a Chinese clone of that set for ~1/2 the cost by WAAAH, but I don't know how much alike they really are, or if they even use the same pole alloy. One reviewer here says they do sound like AIII pickups:

www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804384874634.html?src=google&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&albcp=20268592310&albag=&trgt=&crea=en3256804384874634&netw=x&device=c&albpg=&albpd=en3256804384874634&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAibeuBhAAEiwAiXBoJJ_O3EjftygyqY4JD1vrBIK1TbabhfmA6FIJ20RoBsoM5UpiX8nzJhoCl1AQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&aff_fcid=86a2dc7cf324464ab9122ead1aae23f8-1707995960881-04758-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=86a2dc7cf324464ab9122ead1aae23f8-1707995960881-04758-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=a84b65133397415ab6dd023b5e55e4d5&afSmartRedirect=y&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

Another Tonerider set for more of a late 50s sound would be the Pure Vintage set. They have a bit lower inductance, but stronger pole flux. As expected, they sound a bit brighter and thinner than the Surfaries in the Tonerider site videos. Antigua did a thorough review here:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7843/tonerider-pure-vintage-analysis-review

Which type you'd prefer is hard to say. It also depends on your guitar pick and the string gauge & wrap alloy brightness. I also think whether the neck FB is lacquered or not affects high-end damping. I'd definitely choose the Surfaries with a lacquered FB, but I also use thick hard plastic picks that produce a strong bright attack.

Either way, I'd wire the second tone knob on the bridge pickup so you can take the edge off the tone if you want. You might even consider attaching a Cu-plated Steel baseplate for a bit more punch and warmth without much high-end loss. Ali Express also has them cheap. The description says Brass-plated, but it looks like Cu to me. Either plating is fine, but it won't have the same effect on the sound if the baseplate isn't magnetic. Cheap enough to take a chance on if you're interested.

[gckelloch]

Incidentally, the Squire Classic Vibe guitars had generic versions of those two Tonerider models. Not sure if they still do.

One thing that can be overlooked is the effect of string pull. I find AV poles are just too strong for the pickup heights I prefer. While some may like the harder/colder tonality and punch, the "Stratitus" (pitch modulations) on the higher frets can sound awful. Some pickups mix AV with AII/III for the plain strings. That solves the problem for the G string, but the low e will still have modulations unless set fairly low. That makes for a pretty thin sound combined with HF 42AWG wire, but you might want that wirey sound on the bridge. I don't buy pickups based on output, as there are other ways to deal with that. I do believe AII poles tend to sound fatter than AIII for whatever reason but I think today's AII is more permeable than it was. That should make it more efficient. AII pickups still tend to be wound hotter, but it's not really necessary.

Pickups may list being wound with PE wire, but it might be a type of poly in some cases. The old PE (Lacquer) insulation can lose some high-end due to cracking around the bobbin edges. Some players may like that, but I figure that's what the tone knob is for. Not sure if the slightly thinner coil for the same gauge ends up being more or less efficient. I imagine it depends on how much the flux lines from the strings move through the coil, which I wager is affected by the pole permeability. Mixing pickup sets can be somewhat unpredictable for that reason. I still like the idea of the WAAAH Surfari set with a Steel baseplate on the bridge pickup for more punch. I use Bill Lawrence-designed Wilde brand stacked and low-noise SC pickups, but that's a whole other can of worms, and more money than you might want to spend.

One last thing about these pickups is that they appear to have only two leads. You'd have to separate the chassis ground if you want to do OoP wiring.

[mitch88]

Thanks for that, the Brdg pkup is wired to the bottom tone knob. Im not after a fat sound, just to reproduce the guitar sounds/songs of that era.
Alnico V im fine with, its the ohms, inductance, readings of the coils that have bearing on the pkups' sound im after.
Ive read a fair bit but its confusing and sometimes contradictory.
The guitar is a Fender late '50's Strat design so i want to get the approx. correct pkups for it. Thanks.
How does one put a picture in these posts?

[gckelloch]

The permeability, conductance, and flux strength of the poles also affect the sound. Permeability affects inductance and efficiency in how the flux lines from the strings are drawn through the coil. Conductance affects high freq roll-off via eddy currents. Flux strength affects efficiency and harmonic content because string pull emphasizes certain harmonics at a given point on a string.

I have experienced objectionable Stratitus with AV poles. Some pickups have weaker AV poles, like those Tonerider Pure Vintage. I'd at least look for something like that, or just get them. They are within late 50s Fender spec, which varies a lot depending on who wound them.

I wouldn't underestimate the influence of cable C (Capacitance) b4 the first preamp stage. Toneriders apparently have fairly low internal C. You can get a smooth extended high-end sparkle on the 2.6H Pure Vintage bridge with a low C cable.

[gckelloch]

This thread set off my OCD. I found a US builder that offers an A4 pole set for $150.

www.ebay.com/str/fatpups/Stratocaster-Pickups/_i.html?store_cat=9374179015

It's the only A4 set I've found in that price range. A4 is between A2 and A5 in flux strength with about the same permeability as A2, which is ~2x that of A5. It has a modern stagger, but I still don't see the point of the high E pole being higher than the B when the coil could otherwise just be raised for a stronger, but fatter high E sound. It might be a good compromise with a warmer tonality and less string pull than A5 without potentially being too dull.

BTW, since there won't be a tone pot on the middle PUP, I wire a 220k R over it to ground so it's not too piercing, along with my very low C cable. The middle pos can be pretty sharp sounding as it is.

[mitch88]

I havent played/plugged my '57 strat in for a while but i think both mid n bdg pkups are wired to bdg tone knob, ill have to check (i dont plugin ever in the 2bd unit im in).
Ive youtubed ToneRiders which are up there in my selections. Came across ElectroAnimal pkups from Kazakstan seem good tho not alot of spec info.
I use standard XL's 9/42 Didarrios for this lacquered maple neck.
And im in Australia so o/seas buying is out.
Your OCD is fine with me -very informative, i have trauma related cognitive disfunction so abbreviations and forming conclusions is hard, often just evaporates.
Thanks for your help, im a while off buying anything so just amassing info.

[gckelloch]

Here's a quote from Lindy Fralin: "Curiously, Alnico 3 is weaker than Alnico 2 in a Bar Magnet form, but stronger than Alnico 2 in a Rod Magnet form."

I'm skeptical, but it could explain why AIII pole pickups tend to sound brighter than AII. That's assuming the pole length and thickness are equal, and if the respective AlNiCo formulas he tested are commonly used today. AII has changed in recent times. His other descriptions of the magnet types likely have to do with how guitar amps gain stages respond to flux strength-derived output. AFAIK, pole piece influenced pickup impedance can have an audible effect on low freq tightness, but I don't think it varies enough in AlNiCo to make a significant difference.

Some popular guitar players that have AIII pole pickups are Eric Johnson, Matt Schofield, and I think Robert Cray. If you haven't owned a guitar with AV pole pickups, you might try one to see if the Strat-itus on the higher frets is acceptable at the pickup heights you like. The late Bill Lawerence once stated that pickup output drops 60% every 2x distance from the string and there is some loss of lows. I assume 60% = 6dB, and "lows" means lower note harmonics, rather than bass. String pull effects are also reduced. Again, Strat-itus was too much for me on the low E and G strings at 2~3mm distances with the vintage-staggered AV pole pickups I've owned in the past, but the audibility depends on how much gain.

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[mitch88]

Thanks.
Ps. interesting what theyre calling 'briefs' these days.

[gckelloch]

Those are "Boxer briefs". I switched to them many years ago and never looked back.

BTW, your Strat might have 500k pots if it came with ceramic pickups. Most Strat pickups will sound pretty bright with 500k pots. If you don’t want to change at least one pot value to 250k, you’ll likely want to keep the tone knobs down a bit to compensate. Changing one pot value to 250k and leaving one at 500k would also allow more leeway with pickup inductance values and pole alloys b4 losing too might high-end. You could just leave them both at 500k, but there is less sweep linearity with higher pot values i.e. the volume or tone change will be more abrupt and at a lower point on the knob.

This came up in my YT feed and might be worth a listen:



There isn’t really audible Strat-itus with any of the magnet types, but he didn’t fret up high while sustaining notes without vibrato on the low E or G strings. The posted Gauss readings are a bit high and may have been measured b4 the magnets settled. I wouldn’t say the A3 sounds brighter by any means, but it does seem to have the most “bell-like” high-end in the clean clips. That misconception could stem from how lower output pickups sometimes sound when guitar amp gain stages aren’t hard so there’s less high freq ducking. I kinda’ like the A8 best of the overdrive clips, but while the respective emphasized harmonics per pickup position may result in more bite, it sacrifices some harmonic richness due to harmonic masking. The more natural harmonic levels of the A3 might be why it sounds more bell-like.

Again, the respective permeability and conductivity also affect the sound. Today’s A2 can have at least as high permeability as A3. A2 is also harder to accidentally demagnetize than A3. I see no reason not to go for A2 unless you specifically want the lower Gauss of A3, and the slightly higher inductance A2 pickup models offered by Tonerider or WAAAH shouldn’t sound too dark at all with one of the pot values still being 500k. I have an old 3.6H Wilde L280SL bridge stack pickup with 440 stainless pole pieces and Gauss about to equal A2. It also has Cu-plated steel plates under each coil, and doesn’t sound dark even with 250k pots and my 160pF cable.

I mentioned b4 that Pre-CBS Strats came with an Al (Aluminum) pickguard shield. You could install one to get the eddy current-induced upper-mid “sweetened” sound it provides. GFS sells such 0.014” thick Al shields cheap, and they are available cheap elsewhere. A much thicker (0.063” thick) anodized Al pickguard would reduce the highs a bit more. You may not want that. There may be a slight microphonic effect with Al sheeting next to the pickup coils as well, but how it affects the tone depends entirely on the chaotic phase relationship to the string vibrations.

As per a discussion here on the difference between magnetic and electrostatic noise, there can be some benefit in shielding the pickup cavities with Cu and/or Al tape. There may also be some benefit to grounding the pickup poles with a wire attached to a piece of conductive-adhesive Cu tape across the bottom of the poles if they aren’t grounded. Then, you could just put a piece of Al tape on the pickup cavity bottoms. My experience is that need not be grounded.