measure from 12th fret ... intonation?

[guitartom]

1st question... I heard the the 12th fret should be exactly halfway between the nut and the bridge of a quitar... why it my telecaster not like this. i have the standard bridge and each string is diffent distance. I can set the saddle for each string.

what is the proper way to set the intonation on a telecaster.
Thanks

[UnklMickey]

Bridge distance vs "scale length". that seems to be the question of the year around here.

"why is my tele not like this?"

lets look at a few of the factors that affect the resonant frequency of the string.

• length -- the shorter, the higher
  
• tension -- the tighter, the higher
  
• stiffness -- the stiffer, the higher
  

so ignoring for now the change in tension depending on how hard you press behind the frets, tension remains constant relative to where the string is tuned. so by using 1/2 the length, we should have twice the frequency. that means that the 12 fret should be 1/2 way between the nut and the bridge.

but wait! all is not well in paradise! why? STIFFNESS. (in this case stiffness is NOT a good thing .:lol:.)

near the ends of a string, they are stiffer than in the middle, and the wave acts a bit differently there. (has higher velocity?) the shorter a string is, the more this effect becomes important. also different diameter strings have a different stiffness and wound strings have a different stiffness than plain strings.

apparently in the lower strings we choose to use on a guitar, stiffness is a larger factor than in the higher strings. the correct bridge position is farther from the nut there.

this is exaggerated even more on shorter scale guitars. (that portion of the string that is "close to the ends" is a larger percentage of the total). so a 'Paul has more of this effect than a strat or a tele.

setting the bridge saddles so that the 12th fret is exactly 1/2 way is a good STARTING POINT.

whats the proper way to set the intonation? the way that produces the least errors in the locations on the neck you play the most.

using a strobe or digital tuner, adjust each bridge saddle so that the note played at the 12th fret is exactly one octave higher than when it's open.

usually that is the best compromise. then check each string at each fret (i hope your tuner is chromatic) an evaluate the amount of error. if you find that at the 18th fret, it's too sharp, move the saddle away from the nut 'til its almost right, but still a little sharp. a little movement here makes a big change. you' find that the amount of change at the 12th fret was smaller. so its now flat, but not by as much as the 18th used to be sharp.

a few tweaks and you will be able to average out the errors so that its all pretty close. and thats better than having it perfect a few places and way off in others.

hope this helps

U.M.

[Runewalker]

There's a great little program that precisely assists intonating guitars: G-Tune. It is relatively inexpensive and available over the net:

www.jhc-software.com/gtune.htm

No, I don't work for JHC-software.

It allows adjustments in cents, and you can even do the 'tempored' tunings for guitars that are around.

You of course have to jack into your sound card from your guitar lead, but that's easily achieved with the 1/4" to 1/8"? adapters (RatShack). Some times there is an issue with stereo vs. mono. I use my GNX output so that cheats a little.

Anyway, very handy program. Beats Peterson's on price by miles, and even old Conn optomechanicals go used on Ebay for $150 to $200.

[RJB]

Quote "I heard the the 12th fret should be exactly halfway between the nut and the bridge of a quitar."

This is the BASIC intonation of the Highest string. The actual position is fine tuned with a tuner. Each string is LENGTHENED by it's diameter(Thickness). Here's a good reference www.fender.com/support/setup/telesetup.php

I use a BOSS TU7 chromatic tuner. There are also several decent software tuners that would work well.

I don't recommend the "harmonic" tuning method. My affinity was good "harmonically" but the scale was off by 3/16"! Played much better when adjusted properly.

[UnklMickey]

rjb said:

Quote "I heard the the 12th fret should be exactly halfway between the nut and the bridge of a quitar."

This is the BASIC intonation of the Highest string. [glow=green,1,300]The actual position is fine tuned with a tuner.[/glow][glow=red,1,300]Each string is LENGTHENED by it's diameter(Thickness)[/glow]. Here's a good reference www.fender.com/support/setup/telesetup.php

I use a BOSS TU7 chromatic tuner. There are also several decent software tuners that would work well.

I don't recommend the "harmonic" tuning method. My affinity was good "harmonically" but the scale was off by 3/16"! Played much better when adjusted properly.

i wholeheartedly and unequivocally agree with the part about using a tuner to set intonation!

about that stamen regarding the length of each string being lengthened by it's diameter? i think that is in the right direction, but far too simplistic to be even close to accurate.

if that were true, then if the largest string were .110 and the smallest were .010, then the difference would only be .100! the difference in the positing of the saddles on a properly adjusted guitar bridge is greater than this.

it's an inadequate assessment on a strat and worse on a 'Paul (shorter scale). and i don't think you're gonna find anyone using strings of that size on the low E.

but rather than re-hash my previous boring post about stiffness, i'd rather support the valid portion of your post and add:

don't worry about the science involved, unless you just gotta know why.

use a tuner to set the intonation, re-check at several places on the neck, and re-adjust to average out the errors


"and that all i have to say about that"

U.M.

[RJB]

Actually the result is cumulative. 'B' string is set back .013" from 'E'. 'G' is set back according. 'D' is set even to 'B' location. 'A' is set back .036", and 'E' is set back .046" (EB Reg Slinky). .013+.036+.046=.095" Which is just about where I measured my Tele at. (slightly less than 1/8")

Again this is the "rough" intonnation. This is the method recommended by Fender and Master Luthere Dan Erlewine.

[TooManyWires]

The method that I've used for setting intonation, is to hold down the 12th fret and (using a tuner) check it's note. Then play the natural harmonic right above the 12th fret and check it's note with the same tuner. They should be the same. If they aren't the same, you move the saddle until they are the same. I forget at the moment which direction you move the saddles to fix a problem. (ie- If the harmonic is (flat or sharp) compared to the note, then you move the saddle (towards or away from) the nut.) I'm sure a quick web search would be able to tell you which way that works. I've used this method before on a couple of occasions and I've found it works well.

[bam]

hold down the 12th fret and (using a tuner) check it's note. Then play the natural harmonic right above the 12th fret and check it's note with the same tuner. They should be the same.

yeah, that's what's written in the Fender manual when you bought your Fender axe

I should add, the difference between the harmonic and fretted note at 12th fret should NOT exceed 1 cent.

[UnklMickey]

bam said:

...yeah, that's what's written in the Fender manual when you bought your Fender axe ....

real men don't need instructions. XD (just kidding)

toomanywires said:

...If they aren't the same, you move the saddle until they are the same. I forget at the moment which direction you move the saddles to fix a problem. ....

reason it out.

the harmonic is your reference.

if the fretted note is flat the string is too long.

move the saddle toward the nut.

both the harmonic and the fretted note will become sharper, but the fretted note will sharpen twice as much.

retune the string (open harmonic).

check again.

[bam]

real men don't need instructions. XD (just kidding)

;D righty, uncle, but actually reading the instructions saves me the time (and bucks) that a noob usually spend for a techie.

Might even add, it brought me into the world of DIY.

[UnklMickey]

absolutely!

my remark was T.I.C.

in reality, i used to read the instructions COMPLETELY before i even LOOKED at the goods.

i'm not a good about it as i used to be, but still read the stuff early in the process.

bam said:

...I should add, the difference between the harmonic and fretted note at 12th fret should NOT exceed 1/100 cent.

i think you're mixing terms here.

did you mean to say "should not exceed 1 cent".

even 1 cent is an incredibly hard tolerance to meet.


unk

[bam]

corrected. sorry for the mistake .. must admit, I don't even bother to know the real definitons of "cent", actually (blush) ..