my nut fell off..........hahahahahah

[jdl]

hey guys;

I had my strings loosened off and was checking out my bridge pu on my LP knockoff, and my nut just dropped off the guitar. Soooooo, how hard is it to custom cut my own nut i've looked around on stew mac a bit, but it is hard to guage the difficulty level of something like this. it would be my first major repair so i'm just looking for some feedback.

james

[UnklMickey]

your nut fell off?

oh lucky you!

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i had to juxtapose that coincidence with your double entendre.





we had a thread on that topic not too long ago.

sounds like: difficulty level = low to moderate. tedium level = high to very high.


unk

[jdl]

hahahah thanks unk.

james

[sumgai]

James,

If the nut fell off, that implies that it didn't break, it just fell away from the fingerboard in one piece. Can't you just glue it back in place? (Don't use any kind of superglue, that has no tensile strength, and does not stand up to vibration very well.)

Say, isn't this the same guitar that you just had fixed a topic or two ago?


sumgai

[jdl]

no no this is a different guitar. the one that just got fixed was my acoustic. I think i'm just going to buy a different nut. This one looks like it is made out of cheap plastic. I'm thinking tusq or "slip-stone" from stew mac.

james

[Runewalker]

Sumgai

Actually, I think it is the Frets.com guy that is pretty fond of superglue on nuts. His approach is to only glue the edge of the nut facing the perpendicular cut of the fingerboard and none on the bottom.

"It doesn't matter how tightly it's glued in place because no glue sticks all that well to nut material, or the end grain of the fingerboard. The nut always pops right out neatly." Frets.com

I think his deal is to get something to hold it in place then let the string tension provide the force holding. I don't know if this sounds like secure coupling.

Deft uses superglue on his customized compensated nut inserts, but compensated nuts are an entirely new topic (see coffee shop)

www.mimf.com/nutcomp/

[jdl]

well, if glue isn't that neccessary then why use it at all? I mean, in theory i could just put the nut back on and let string tension do the hard work right? Wouldn't the tension be far more powerful then a small dab of superglue?

james

[sumgai]

well, if glue isn't that neccessary then why use it at all? I mean, in theory i could just put the nut back on and let string tension do the hard work right? Wouldn't the tension be far more powerful then a small dab of superglue?

James has it right, here, why use glue at all, even if it's just to 'hold' the nut while stringing up? Correct answer: RuneWalker has it right:

I think his deal is to get something to hold it in place then let the string tension provide the force holding. I don't know if this sounds like secure coupling.

That coupling factor makes all the difference in the world. Luthiers, good ones, know that the faster a glue dries, the less it sank into, and mated with, the materials it was supposed to work on. I don't care what a nut is made of, or what direction the grain runs, there is a proper glue for every job. Just ask Dan Erlewine, the pre-eminent luthier of our times. (Sadly, don't bother with www.danerlewine.com, it's just one page. Use Google instead, there are a ton of sites with his stuff.)

If a nut is not secured correctly to the neck, it won't transfer string energy to the wood in the best manner possible. And I don't have to lecture about what that does to the tone - I'm here at the most tone-cognizant forum on the web! ;D

Side note: Dan E. will use superglue where appropriate. It's funny to listen to what I just said, and then watch him do a fret job..... with superglue! But that's not all he uses, you should go check out his pages - start with Frets.com. And if you don't already have it, his book "Guitar Player Repair Guide" is the tops in its field. (First two sources,: Stewie-Mac or Amazon, but there are others, maybe a bit cheaper.)

HTH


sumgai

p.s. I didn't put that extra space in the Stewie-Mac link name, the forum software is pretending that there is some link code to interpret. Looks like I was drunk, I know. Sorry, not since September 1st, 1977!

[RandomHero]

Danny Erle? I had a friend who just recently went through Red Wings School of Lutherie, and he said they used Dan's instructional videos as an example what -NOT- to do... RW's School is pretty prolific, and they consider him a hack.

[dunkelfalke]

i always used superglue and i have changed nuts three times. works flawlessly (except when you take too much superglue, then it can stain the neck).

anyway, why don't buy a graphtech preslotted nut? they cost only about $10

[UnklMickey]

admin said:

Danny Erle? I had a friend who just recently went through Red Wings School of Lutherie, and he said they used Dan's instructional videos as an example what -NOT- to do... RW's School is pretty prolific, and they consider him a hack.

good to know. almost bought his book with my latest mail-order.

could you check with your friend and get us a recommendation on author(s) for lutherie books?


unk

[jdl]

so what glue should i use?

james

[Runewalker]

so what glue should i use?

james

This a good question and I have not found anything definitive in terms of generally tested and accepted wisdom.

There seems a clear acceptance to avoid the overly zelous glues, as nuts are wearable, replaceable parts and you want to be able to remove it. I think that is why the frets.com guy says to only glue the finger board end/nut face, and not the bottom. So epoxy is out.

The two canidates I have heard are Elmer's white glue for an acceptable but breakable bond, superglue (can't ever remember how to spell Cryno....) (or superglue gel). Whatever is used you just want a thin layer to facilitate later removal.

I frequently try to achieve an effective friction bond and as little glue as possible because I am always experimenting and want easy removal. I prefer a tighter fit opposed to more glue.

On removing nuts: I have had a mishap where I was trying to hammer/punch one out the wrong way and put a crack in a fingerboard. The glue was too strong and I had poor technique. Ah the school of stupid mistakes. Patched that one ok and moved on.

But a great tool I found after has made my removal process nearly painless. What I see recommended most the time it tapping a piece of wood against the nut face until the glue bond breaks. I find this risky on conventional strat necks as only a think shred of rosewood or maple is left on the headstock side of the nut dado, and it is easy to break that off. I use a wierd Vice-Grip tool that for jaws, 2 flat plates that I guess are used as some kind of clamp. I simply grip the nut with 2 plates and a mild vice-grip tension, then rock gently back and forth. Boom its out.

The other thing I might mention on these replacements is to be sure to thoroughly clear the nut channel of all residual old glue. This is somewhat tedious and hard to see, but critical to re-establishing good coupling.

In spite of luthier's recommending face glue only, I find plenty of caked up glue in the bottom of those channels.

[jdl]

thanks rune

once i put the new nut on should i have in some sort of grip until the glue takes hold?

james

[lunaalta]

Just to reitterate..... you must use glue, otherwise when you start tuning the strings the nut is gonna slide one way and then the other and it ain't gonna be tuneable........

I just used an epoxy for a nut on a nice hand made spanish guitar. The reason being that I will get it reamed out when it wears out.

[sumgai]

RandomHero,

Danny Erle? I had a friend who just recently went through Red Wings School of Lutherie, and he said they used Dan's instructional videos as an example what -NOT- to do... RW's School is pretty prolific, and they consider him a hack.

If we're talkin' 'bout the same luthier, then your friend's school/teacher/whatever would be flying in the face of a hurricane-sized wind. Dan Erlewine has been around since J.C. was a corporal, and his name hasn't been consistently cropping up all that time just for the helluvit. When you' ve attracted the attention of every guitar-oriented rag on the planet (that's produced in English), when you have over 31,000 hits on Google, and the first 100 of them (!) have nothing negative to say, then it's almost an article of faith that there will be some nay-sayers out there.

If we truly are speaking of the same person, it would be very prudent to question your friend's source more closely.


sumgai

[sumgai]

James,

so what glue should i use?

james

Elmer's Glue-All, or their white glue, milk glue, kids glue, whatever they call it these days. Their carpenter's glue is good, and necessary in other places around the shop, but for this job, it would be overkill.

You don't need to tape down or otherwise clamp the nut until the glue dries, but like anything else made of wood, let the glue dry overnight. In a hurry? Take a shortcut (superglue), and hope that your angels love you.

Them's the thoughts of an old wood butcher.


sumgai

[jdl]

lol thanks sumgai;

i read your J.C. was corporal statement....do you have past military service. The reason i ask is cuz thats a common quote where i work.

james

[fobits]

I use a weird Vice-Grip tool that for jaws, 2 flat plates that I guess are used as some kind of clamp.

Hey, I have one of those. I bought it because it was on sale and looked nifty. It's been sitting in a toolbox for years, never used.

Now I can put a big enlarged picture of it out in front, with a sign: NUTS REMOVED - $10

[Runewalker]

Now I can put a big enlarged picture of it out in front, with a sign: NUTS REMOVED - $10

Nah, someone would think you are advertising for a husband .... until they saw the low price.

[sumgai]

jdl said:

lol thanks sumgai;

i read your J.C. was corporal statement....do you have past military service. The reason i ask is cuz thats a common quote where i work.

james

Uncle Sam's @$$wipes, nearly 6 years. ;D

But if I had said "... since JC was a mess cook on the HMS Hood", then you'd've known I was a sailor!


sumgai

p.s. For those who had other things to do in History class, the Hood was credited with sinking the Bismarck in 1941. But lately, that's been discredited. Those interested will appreciate Google all the more.

[jdl]

lol, good stuff sumgai;

i'm Army Reserve up here in Canada. Good to know their is another military guitar nut on here.

james

[TooManyWires]

www.thistothat.com

I'm not sure if this is too late, or even if that site would have any useful information about this particular situation, but it's an interesting site, and it may just be able to help you find what you're looking for.

[Runewalker]

toomanywires -- www.thistothat.com

I'm not sure if this is too late, or even if that site would have any useful information about this particular situation, but it's an interesting site, and it may just be able to help you find what you're looking for.

That is useful for many of the gluing issues related to guitars. Nut affixing is complicated in that it needs to be secure, but eventually removable. Except in the case of lunaalta who likes the permancy of expoxy and doesn't mind re-routing the nut dado or rabbit, as the case may be.

So I suspect this is why you see luthiers use superglue or white Elmers, and often only on the fretboard to nut face interface. Adequate adhesion for coupling, but not irremovable.

This site is great little resource, just be aware it tries to guide you towards permanence --- yet does give some pros and cons on different approaches, all with the implied objective of permanence.

And since the natural momentum is towards entrophy we risk a confrontation with reality in the pursuit of the illusion of permanence.

[sumgai]

This is a good site, thanks for the tip. ;D


sumgai