1 Humbucker Plus 1 Single Coil =

[vg3000]

Hello, I'm new at pickup polarity.

I've been wanting to put a single coil in the bridge of my guitar. The neck has a humbucker.

Would it be more useful to put a reverse wound/reverse polarity single coil in the bridge?

If so what are the pro's, con's of going with a RW/RP over a normal wound bridge pup?

TIA

[JohnH]

Theres no point in this case, assuming you use the full neck Hb without coil cuts etc. The Hb cancels it own hum, so a combination of the neck Hb with the bridge Sc will give you some uncancelled hum whether or not the bridge is RWRP.

If you do coil-cut the neck, you can arrange the wiring to pick whichever neck coil will cancell hum with whatever bridge Sc pup you have.

John

[vg3000]

Thank you! Would it be worth it to put a phase switch in with this type of setup?

TIA

[ChrisK]

Would it be worth it to put a phase switch in with this type of setup?

Yes.

If you do coil-cut the neck, you can arrange the wiring to pick whichever neck coil will cancel hum with whatever bridge Sc pup you have.

If you have said 4 wire connections to the neck humbucker, you can choose the other coil to effect hum cancellation with it. I would recommend that you use series out-of-phase as opposed to parallel out-of-phase for a better output signal.

If you do not have a 4 wire humbucker, let us know the type of pickups that you have, whether they're covered in a metal can, and whether the wire from them is a single shielded conductor, two separate wires, or whatever. Pictures would good if you have them. Knowing the guitar type and manufacturer would also be good.

[vg3000]

I just want to leave the humbucker stock. It's not coil tapped, only two leads. It has a nickel pickup cover. The single coil would be a P90 and also has a nickel pickup cover.

TIA

[ChrisK]

By "only two leads on the humbucker" do you mean two separate wires AND a braided shield, or just one conductor in a braided shield.

On the P-90, are there two separate wires, or just one conductor in a braided shield.


This is important information to know for series and reversing phase.

[vg3000]

Hey Chris, Both have one shield and one conductor.

TIA

[ChrisK]

The fact that both pickups are single conductor with shield limits the possible wiring structures somewhat. I would keep the bridge humbucker shield (its signal return and shield conductor) connected to guitar ground.

A P-90, although it also has a single conductor plus shield, is not a pickup that is normally enclosed in a metal case. Most likely it's metal frame is covered with a creme or black plastic cover. If so, the internal frame (connected to its signal return and shield conductor) can be treated somewhat as just another conductor, since the plastic cover will insulate the frame from being touched (just like touching the cable tip when it's plugged into the amp).

Unfortunately, you state that yours has a metal cover also.

If it is metal covered and you can't replace it with a plastic cover, please ignore the rest of the post. Personally, I would not do any series or out-of-phase modes in this case since the P-90 cover will then be connected to the input of the amp in said modes.


What are the models and brands of your pickups?


Series and series out-of-phase

For a series structure, the hot lead from the bridge humbucker is connected to the P-90's shield (which IS NOT connected to guitar ground) and the P-90's hot lead goes to the output jack hot terminal. In essence we have wired the P-90 "on top of" the humbucker.

Now, when the P-90 is in parallel with the humbucker, its shield must be connected to the guitar ground and its hot lead goes to the output jack along with the humbucker's hot lead.

When the P-90 is in series out-of-phase with the humbucker, its hot lead goes to the humbucker's hot lead, and the P-90's shield goes to the output jack hot terminal. In essence we have wired the P-90 "on top of" the humbucker "up-side-down".

When we do series structures, we need to switch both leads of the pickup that is electrically placed "on top" of the other one. This requires at least a 2 pole switch and is best served with a three pole one (to eliminate hanging coils).

To do a series out-of-phase we need at least three poles (two to switch both leads of the pickup being reversed and one to enable separate selection of the other pickup for parallel. A 4P5T super switch works good here since it leaves one pole free for tone control selection.

Five positions are good for these positions;
1. Bridge - Neck (anti-series) thinner sound, weakest output.
2. Bridge
3. Bridge + Neck (parallel)
4. Neck
5. Bridge * Neck (series) thick sound, highest output.


So, what is the guitar type and manufacturer ?

[vg3000]

Yes both pups have nickel covers. There's no way to replace the P90 nickel cover for a plastic that I know of as it's one of those GFS P90's sized to fit HB routes.

So you're saying that I can't do any wiring tricks with pups like that?

What about if I bought another one of those P90's for the neck down the road?

[ChrisK]

So you're saying that I can't do any wiring tricks with pups like that?

No, what I'm saying is that you can't do any wiring tricks with pups like that without having at least one of the metal pickup covers (shields) electrically connected to the guitar output/amp input signal at above ground potential and exposed for touching by the operator (you).

If you are willing to do so, do so......


As a simple test, plug a cable into your amp.

Set it to your preferred output level.

Touch the tip of the cable at the end normally plugged in to your guitar with your finger....................

What about if I bought another one of those P90's for the neck down the road?

I don't understand "another one of those P90's".

?Another GFS P-90?


To do series and out of phase in a properly shielded and grounded method, one of the pickups involved (if more than two are involved, all but one) must have an electrically separate shield and/or metal cover from the coil wires, or no shield.

[vg3000]

chrisk said:

?Another GFS P-90?


To do series and out of phase in a properly shielded and grounded method, one of the pickups involved (if more than two are involved, all but one) must have an electrically separate shield and/or metal cover from the coil wires, or no shield.

Yes a GFS Mean 90 (P90).

So if I want that old school 50's P90 out of phase tone with two GFS nickel covered P90's I'll want to stay away from having one of them RW/RP?

TIA

[ChrisK]

So if I want that old school 50's P90 out of phase tone with two GFS nickel covered P90's I'll want to stay away from having one of them RW/RP?

NO.

RW means reversed wiring direction. This changes the phasing 180 degrees.

RP means reversed magnetic polarity. This changes the phasing 180 degrees.

You're back where you started!


There are three components to the signal phase:

1. The magnet polarity,

2. The winding direction,

3. The direction of string movement.


#1. is often difficult to change.

#2. is trivial to change (why we NEED both ends of the coil to be FREE from the shield or ground).

#3. is real hard to change unless we mount the pickup above the string, and then it's only partial.

Changing an odd number of these things changes the signal phase. Changing an even number doesn't.

If you want a single conductor plus shield pickup to be out of phase with another, it has to have RP or RW, but not both.


If you want series and/or EOOP, you need to get a pickup that has a separate shield from the coil wires. The best bet is to buy a 4 wire plus shield humbucker pickup.

[vg3000]

chrisk said:

So if I want that old school 50's P90 out of phase tone with two GFS nickel covered P90's I'll want to stay away from having one of them RW/RP?

NO.

I don't get it. The old P90's did not have a RW/RP in a set of two, this is something you find offered in recent years for hum cancellation in the center position. The old P90's were just the same made pickup one at the bridge and one at the neck.

[sumgai]

I don't get it. The old P90's did not have a RW/RP in a set of two, this is something you find offered in recent years for hum cancellation in the center position. The old P90's were just the same made pickup one at the bridge and one at the neck.

That's not quite true. If you look carefully at vintage documents, you'll find that there were indeed two different part numbers for the two pickups. This was to denote the winding direction and magnet polarity, so that when "Both" pickups were selected together, the guitar didn't hum as much as it would otherwise. I too was fooled by this very concept, in my early days as an electronics technician/quasi-luthier. It would appear, after some careful observation and cogitation, that the old-line, big-name builders really did hire some qualified engineers after all.

For the be-all, end-all Fountain of Knowledge, contact George Gruhn at www.gruhn.com, he is considered by all who have ever uttered the word "guitar" to be the final authority on such things.

HTH


sumgai

[ChrisK]

So if I want that old school 50's P90 out of phase tone with two GFS nickel covered P90's I'll want to stay away from having one of them RW/RP?

Hmmm, I thought that "old school 50's P90 out of phase tone" meant an electrical out-of-phase tone since that was the theme of this ongoing discussion.

The basis for my response was that if one pickup is RWRP with another, the combination will be hum canceling. Aside from that, though, they will sound the same as two pickups that are identical.

I guess that I read more into your question that you meant, which, BTW, what DID you mean?

[vg3000]

Interesting discussion. My Uncle had an old jazz body type Gibson from the 50's. It had two P90 pups in it (plastic covers). I remember it being even noisier with the switch in the center position but having this really fantastic rockabilly tone that made you want to leave it in the center all the time. From memory (and from my own experiences with Frankenstein wiring) I just assumed this was parallel and out of phase. I was hoping to cop some of that vibe.
I remember wiring up a strat a long time ago that had a humbucker split coil in the bridge. If I remember correctly it did not give you the single coil tap by itself, rather only the middle with a tapped single coil like this,

1, bridge HB
2, tapped single coil + middle
3, middle
4, middle + neck
5, neck

I wanted a single coil in the bridge so I set it up that with a push pull pot it would turn one of the coils on all the time and the other was grounded. When the 5 way selector was in the bridge position you got a single coil but in the other positions it was on all the time in combo with the other pups.
With the neck selected and the tapped single coil on I got a very similar tone to my Uncle's old rockabilly beater and I really liked that setting for that sort of stuff.

[vg3000]

Bump...?

[ux4484]

And we're bumping why?
Most of the stuff was settled on page one, and you didn't really pose a question in your previous post.

I'm not trying to be rude, but....Bumping for bumpings sake is not something that usually happens around here.

[vg3000]

ux4484 said:

And we're bumping why?
Most of the stuff was settled on page one, and you didn't really pose a question in your previous post.

I'm not trying to be rude, but....Bumping for bumpings sake is not something that usually happens around here.

I guess you did not read my earlier or last posts. My question was not answered. It appeared that Chris was going to follow up to and I continued my description, I did not hear back from him and that was what the bump was for.
I could see if you had contributed earlier to this thread posting your remark might have been in order but, yes you're coming off as being rude. Bumps don't hurt a forum, forum members that act like cops do.

[ux4484]

*sigh*

not getting fast enough service eh?

Merry Xmas GuitarNutz!

[vg3000]

ux4484 said:

*sigh*

not getting fast enough service eh?

Well, when you have your guitar apart (or your are right in the middle of any project for that matter) sometimes it seems you're waiting on bated breath. Sorry to upset the karma... *sigh*

Yes and a Merry Christmas, and a Happy Holiday to all!

[vg3000]

Can this thread get back on topic? Please?

[JohnH]

I just read through the thread - could you please clarify what it is that you are still looking for answers on?

thanks

John

[vg3000]

Hey John,

Well with the the above example (strat, and my Uncle's guitar), I'm asking if I can get a simular tone (what sounded out of phase) using the metal covered p90 pups. Earlier it was said no, but it would sound to me like what I was hearing (out of phase, my guess is this is not what I was hearing?) with the above examples could be achieved by using two of the same pups instead of having one wound RW/RP. The tone I'm discribing above was not a noise canceling tone, nor was it was it in series giving you a boost like you find on old Danelectro's or Silvertone's.
Sorry about the confusion, I hope that helps.

TIA

[JohnH]

I dont know, if the two pups were really out of phase for the sound signal, you would have less bass in the combination than for the sigle pups. Does that sound right?

If so, and you want to reverse the phase of a pup which has only a single conductor plus outer core, then it may be best to break into the pup and wire it with two-core screened cable - one core each for the ends of the coil, without grounding those ends at the pup, and the braid to provide the shielding, which is then grounded. If you do this to one of two pups which are the same (not RWRP), then you will get hum-cancelling in youtr out-of-phase mode.

Or if theres a magnet in there that you can flip over on one pup, that will also reverese the phase of the pup, without changing any grounding or wiring.

John

[vg3000]

johnh said:

I dont know, if the two pups were really out of phase for the sound signal, you would have less bass in the combination than for the sigle pups. Does that sound right?

If so, and you want to reverse the phase of a pup which has only a single conductor plus outer core, then it may be best to break into the pup and wire it with two-core screened cable - one core each for the ends of the coil, without grounding those ends at the pup, and the braid to provide the shielding, which is then grounded. If you do this to one of two pups which are the same (not RWRP), then you will get hum-cancelling in youtr out-of-phase mode.

Or if theres a magnet in there that you can flip over on one pup, that will also reverese the phase of the pup, without changing any grounding or wiring.

John

I'll have to check that out. If you don't have a vintage Gibby handy ( ), I don't, the tone I'm describing is much like having a strat's bridge and neck on together (without the middle), what would that be (in phase, out of phase, parallel, etc. I don't know)?

[JohnH]

All a Strats pups are in phase for sound (unless its been G-Nutted!)- neck and bridge (given a suitable switch) is usually just an in-phase parallel sound, same as any 2-pup guitar with a 3-way toggle switch in the middle position.

John

[vg3000]

johnh said:

All a Strats pups are in phase for sound (unless its been G-Nutted!)- neck and bridge (given a suitable switch) is usually just an in-phase parallel sound, same as any 2-pup guitar with a 3-way toggle switch in the middle position.

John

Strange, oh well. I guess I would get that with two P90's of the same type then, as apposed to getting one with RW/RP?

Well thank you for all your help guys, I really do appreciate it.

[ChrisK]

Well, I've been out of town and off-line fer a while. I just got back in late last night.

I guess that the real problem is semantics. While out of phase to us electrical types means a reversed signal phase or instantaneous polarity of the relative output signals, it meant something entirely different to musicians of the day.

I tend to believe that the out of phase sound meant that the fundamental was in phase, but many harmonics were not. This is normally what happens since harmonics are only the multiples of the fundamental represented as sine waves, and there are points where the phases of each differ. At some points (like the neck pickup location on a 22 fret guitar), with open strings, many harmonics are at a null point and do not contribute.


Sooooo, where are we?


It would appear that with two metal covered pickups each with a single conductor plus shield, any series or electrical out-of-phase connections are problematic due to grounding/shielding issues.

You want that 50's out of phase sound that you had before. I don't fully understand this or how it sounds to you, and, since I don't, nor do I know to effect this.

RWRP in respect to another pickup will not change the sound, only the susceptibility to picking up hum/noise, and only when combined with the other. For a true EOOP mode, between two pickups, one must have identical wiring and a reversed magnet polarity, or identical magnet polarity and reversed wiring. The latter is easy to do IF at least one pickup IS NOT single conductor plus shield. The former can be realized if you can take one pickup apart and can reverse the magnet polarity.


Where do we go from here?