Fender/Schaller Locking Tuners

[mmmatthew]

Alright... just to get a few things out of the way and cleared up... I have an Am Dlx Strat HSS FMT. Stupid me, I broke the Schaller locking tuners on it, and so I ordered an exact replacement off eBay (so I thought anyway). So, I get the package today, and I am having confusion with the different heights of the tuners (as they're staggered) and which strings they should be going with.

There are some markings on each tuner to differentiate them from each other. They have different numbers of ticks/lines on them. Now, this is where it gets confusing...

• Apparently, there are only 2 types of "ticks"/labels for each machine. Tuners are labeled either with a "||" or "|||". HOWEVER, there are 2 heights of tuners with "|||" on them (taller ones and shorter ones). This means that there are a TOTAL OF THREE DIFFERENT HEIGHTS.
  
• For simplicity's sake, I will differentiate between the two types of "|||" tuners as "tall|||" and "short|||".
  
• In order from tallest to shortest: "tall|||", "||", "short|||"
  

Now the problem is that the number of tuners of each height in the ORIGINAL set of tuners (that came with my Strat) are different from the number of tuners of each height in the new set.

• ORIGINAL: 3 "tall|||", 1 "||", 2 "short|||"
  
• REPLACEMENT: 2 "tall|||", 2 "||", 2 "short |||"
  

What do I want to know?
For those of you who have experience with Fender guitars or Schaller tuners, which set of tuners has the "right" number/height of tuners.

Personally, I think that the ORIGINAL set of tuners must have been the "wrong" ones. I mean, I don't know how staggered tuners normally work, but I was under the impression that they can come with either 2 different heights or 3 different heights BUT with an equal number tuners for each height. At the same time, seeing as how I got the new tuners from evilBay, I'm the slightest bit skeptical to deem them as the "right" ones.

I sure hope I am making some kind of sense right now! I am having the hardest time right now putting my problem into words!

Also, in case anyone asks, I didn't mix up the 2 sets... as soon as I got the new set, I put masking tape on each of the new tuners (as I knew trouble could ensue if I didn't). ;D

If anyone with any experience with these tuners (or Am Dlx Strats) could reply, it would be much appreciated.

Also... in case anyone is still willing to put up with me (and still reading this post!), how tight should I be tightening the washer on these things... sorry... I'm a complete n00b.

NOTE: (as if this post isn't confusing/long enough already)
Just to clear things up, these tuners are the Fender/Schaller locking tuners that were used on Fender guitars from 2004. Sometime between now and then, Fender introduced a new model with "F"s on the caps. Mine don't have these (and neither do the replacements I ordered), and they're of the polished chrome variant... if that makes any difference.

[mmmatthew]

OK... well, I ended up just contacting Fender direct, and the guy said that the markings just indicate which machine they were made by.

Anyway, I have yet another question. How tight should my tuners be holding the strings? Just by memory, my previous set seemed a little bit tighter than these ones, but I can't be sure (I really don't wanna go through the hassle of changing out the strings/machines and possibly going through another set of strings.

So how tight is tight enough? I do the "clock" method and I don't overtighten the thumbwheels. Still, when I string up the guitar, I try to test the tuners by pulling the string up off the fretboard and putting my thumb on the fretboard as leverage. The string slips a bit, but I do use a bit of force. Is this an UNREASONABLE amount of force to be putting on the string and expect it to stay put?

Also... I dunno if this should go in another topic, but when I do a huge dive bomb, all my strings return sharp. I don't remember this happening before, but is it due to the tuners? The guitar remains "relatively" in tune in that all the strings more or less get sharp by the same amount. So, it's still playable. I dunno if it's new strings or what, but I'm just the slightest bit nervous due to the nature of buying things off eBay.

Thanks for any help.

[ChrisK]

The shortest tuners are for the tuner holes farthest away from the nut. The longest are for the one's closest.

How tight should my tuners be holding the strings? Just by memory, my previous set seemed a little bit tighter than these ones, but I can't be sure (I really don't wanna go through the hassle of changing out the strings/machines and possibly going through another set of strings.

How would you measure "tightness"?

The string slips a bit, but I do use a bit of force. Is this an UNREASONABLE amount of force to be putting on the string and expect it to stay put?

Are the strings "loose" or just new (and you're stretching them)?

Since there is no standard method of measuring tightness, and hence no way to convey a given amount of recommended tightness (other than that perceived from a lack of string slipping)..........

Tight enough is tight enough.

but when I do a huge dive bomb, all my strings return sharp. I don't remember this happening before, but is it due to the tuners? The guitar remains "relatively" in tune in that all the strings more or less get sharp by the same amount. So, it's still playable. I dunno if it's new strings or what,

It may be the tuners, but I suspect that this is somewhat unlikely that they are all evenly "loose" and the strings are creeping back into them during a dive. Are you actually doing an anti-dive bomb?

It could be the new strings stretching (you DO stretch them when you put them on?).

It sounds like the strings are binding in the nut, but this model (at least the current ones) has an LSR roller nut.

While the Fender 2 point Synchronized Vibrato is better than the 6 screw vintage design, it ain't no Floyd Rose (that "huge dive bomb" thing).

Had the vibrato height screws been adjusted while the strings were at full tension? This wears grooves into the posts.

[humanbn]

I have been wondering as to how well these locking tuners help to keep a guitar in tune. Anyone know?

[jorg]

I have a '95 deluxe strat with these and they seem to work well. That said, I'm not a fan of the whammy (vibrato ;D) but I tend to bend the heck out of my strings on a regular basis. You can check it, there's hardly ANY heck to be found. . .

[mr_sooty]

I think those tuners are fine, but they don't make that much difference. I put vintage style Kluson deluxes on my US Deluxe Strat and haven't noticed any difference in tuning stability. The Schallers have gone on my Reverend Club King RT. They look much better there.

But yes, I did have a tough time figuring out which order they went back on when I made the change. I wished I had labelled them before I took them off the Strat. I'm glad to hear you confirm that there's only three different heights, because that's all I could find.

[mmmatthew]

Well thanks, Chris, for the info... but you could've at least TRIED to let me know how tight is good! You COULD always use a Newton readout... but who has one of those, right?

Does ANYONE have any way of describing how much "give" the strings should have when locked down. Obviously those locking tuners can't lock the strings down against extreme force, but how much is good enough? Like I said before, if i hold the string and push off the fretboard with my thumb, they'll start to slip... with enough force.

[jorg]

I wouldn't think they should do that.

I tighten them down pretty hard though. . .

[mmmatthew]

jorg said:

I wouldn't think they should do that.

I tighten them down pretty hard though. . .

How hard? Do you use just your fingers or tools (e.g. vice grips)? I've heard you're not supposed to, but the strings just don't seem to be holding that well. Again, I'm not sure how tight is tight enough. Is it possible that if you lock em down TOO tight, it could actually cause the strings to slip??? I dunno if that even makes sense... just trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong here.

[jorg]

Only hand tight but REALLY hand tight.

[mmmatthew]

jorg said:

Only hand tight but REALLY hand tight.

Got it.
Anyway, am I correct in assuming that your tuners do NOT let the strings slip whatsoever if you pull on em... even when using a bit of force?

[mr_sooty]

mmmatthew, they shouldn't slip, because then they'd slip when you did string bends. The only time mine have slipped was the first time I strung them and I didn't do the clock thing properly but you said you were doing the clock thing, right? Cos that's important. Are they all slipping? or just the thinnest one(s)? If it's just the thinnest ones just make sure there's half a wrap before you tighten them. That way they get about a wrap and a half once tuned. That's the idea with the clock thing.

You definitely don't want to use a tool to tighten them. You should just tighten them firmly with your hands, but even then, you shouldn't need to use any excessive force, just a firm hand, but not like, say, openeing a jar for the first time. You shouldn't have to put a whole lot of force into it. More like turning a tap off properly. That's about the right strength.

I wouldn't be trying to pull the strings out either. If you're forcing them to slip and slide, you may be wearing out the ball bearing inside. Just tighten, tune, and play.

[mmmatthew]

Thanks for the info. Anyway... they don't slip when I do string bends... so I guess that should be good enough?? I'm just trying to make sure they're in perfect working condition before the days in the return policy run out.

Maybe I'll just take it to a tech and have him check it out. Thanks everyone.

[jorg]

Whats the clock thing? They aren't supposed to have a full wrap around the post.

[sumgai]

3m,

The amount of force you exert on the knurled knob to lock the strings is about what jorg said, enough to forcefully turn off a water tap, but definitely not so much that you need a tool. The geared mechanism inside the tuner actually multiplies your force, and at the point where the piston contacts (and squeezes) the string, there's enough pressure to break most any bone in your body (or in mine, for that matter).

A string should not slip under this kind of pressure, true. However, given enough pressure, the windings on a wound string could be crushed in such a way that they give out, they flatten, and that would leave the core plain string unclamped - it'd start to slip almost immediately. You end up tightening the knob again, trying to keep the string from slipping, and that's your clue - you used too much force the first time. Next time you'll know better, eh?

I don't know about any "clock" methods, but I can say that the big boys don't wrap any more than about a half-turn around the post, when all is said and done (when the strings are tuned to concert pitch). I insert the string into the vice while the opening is facing the fretboard, and take out just about all the slack. I tighten the knob good and hard, then tune up. When I'm finished, the wrapping around the post is never more than about 1/2 or 2/3rds of the post circumference.

The reason for all that? Strings s-t-r-r-r-e-e-e-e-t-c-h-c-h-c-h-c-h. The more string you have between the vice clamp and the ball end, the more there is to stretch out..... simple physics. Unless you yank on them to purposefully stretch them out after mounting them and tuning up (and that's an art unto itself!), then you're just inviting more problems when you add wraps to the post.

Elementary, by dear Watson! ;D

HTH





sumgai