What's the best modeler ?

[bard2dbone]

I am a bass player who plays 'at' guitar. I am trying to put together a home studio. I do most of my writing nowadays on a Taylor 355ce 12-string. And I occasionally use a Strat or a Hamer studio.

I have a wonderful tube amp if I can ever get it back in proper shape. It's a Bedrock BC-50 and it used to be amazing. Now it's sick. It makes annoying humming noises that are probably in the switching circuit.

So, anyway, until the Bedrock is successfully healed, or if it never is, I need a good 'Swiss Army knife' approach.

I was mostly considering the Vox Tonelab. A friend said I needed a Pod, in stead. I know nothing about Pods. And in fact know less than I should about the Vox. I just know I liked the sounds I got with one at Guitar Center.

So...

What's the best modeler?

[sumgai]

b2b,

There is only one, and exactly only one "best" modeler, and there are a helluva lot of "also-ran's". That would be the Roland VG-88, and it's earlier incarnation, the VG-8. Just be aware that the VG-8 had three iterations, all of them good, but they just got better and better as they were upgraded. The VG-88 added an on-board expression pedal, and a host of new modeled sounds, to boot. The VG-88/Version 2 (the latest) also added some more sounds, acoustic being one of the more believable ones.

Then there's the rest of the pack, the usual hangers-on, the "me-too's", and the typical knock-offs. You can make useful sounds with them, but after you hear a Roland (in the hands of an experienced user), you won't be satisfied with anything less.

That's not just one man's opinion, either. ChrisK and others here also use this beast. And there are about a Sagen of forums and Yahoo/Google groups out there, alll of them with a wealth of experience and knowledge about how to get the most of either unit. Start with www.vg-8.com/wiki/Main_Page, and go from there, you won't be sorry! ;D


sumgai

p.s. BTW, Roland also makes a V-Bass system, which models just about everything you've ever heard or played in the way down under range.

[Runewalker]

I have not played enough to assert on the 'best' idea, although I know SG is clear about his preferences. What I have found in playing around with some, is that each seems to have its strenths doing some sounds better than others.

I also find the standard factory settings in the crapola direction.

The main issue on all is to learn thoroughly the programing. They become expressive instruments if you learn the subtlety of the options and combinations.

One other thing I have found is that they universally seem to have a penchant for "boxiness," Like your amp got stuck in an empty refridgerator box. Especially in the speaker and cab simulations. That takes very careful eq work to dial out.

Every modeler sounds different with different amps. I also have yet to find a modeler that works well with SS amps, albeit I have not tested it with the amps that claim tube emulation, Transtube, valvestate, etc.

They do better with an amp that has a neutral clean sound, and tubes seem to take the high frequency clikiness you can hear when the modelers are combined with SS amps.

Because of the need to learn the programing, and the steep learning curve of some of the modelers, you can sometimes find them at reasonable prices used.

This technology will soon nail the emulations it aspires to. We are somewhere in the 3rd or 4th generation of these things.

[jester700]

I've had a bunch (Yamaha DG Stomp, Behringer V-Amp2, Zoom G2, Vox Tonelab, Digitech GNX3000, plus a few other FX devices I wouldn't put in this class). I agree with the current "common wisdom" you'll read many places, which is of course, hotly debated...

The DG was great for its time (I chose it over the first POD, which I thought was buzzy/raspy), but newer units have bested it.

The Tonelab is TOPS for clean & crunch sounds. None better for these. BUT it isn't very flexible, has fewer models, and is particularly skimpy on high gain sounds.

The V-Amp2 is a great deal - for $100, it's pretty flexible and sounds pretty darn good.

The G2 is great for portability - built in drum beats & runs on batteries. Sounds good, but limited number of models.

My fave now is the GNX3000. Well rounded, sounds great, pretty flexible. I wish I could have gotten it in a desktop unit, though.

Never tried that VG-88. Great - something else to spend $$ on... ;-)

[ChrisK]

Modelers should only be used with high-fidelity amps such as a PA system, a keyboard amp, or a wide range base amp (with tweeters/horns).

Tube amps and many ss guitar amps are lousy amps as far as fidelity and lack of wide-range speakers. We forgive tube amps (for their crappy'ness) when used without a modeler, cuz' that's what we're trying to model in the first place!

You need the fidelity so the modeler can filter it out.


BTW, the VG-88 for general use.

The ME-50 for distortion/overdrive.

I've had most of them, and now just have about 10.

[leadfingers]

One unit no one has mentioned, even though it's no longer made, is the Johnson J-Station. I have an American made one.

You can find them on Ebay. However, most of the ones there are the latest ones Johnson had made in China. And according to some of the folks on the old Johnson Forum, the Chinese made versions just didn't seem to have the same tones.

I paid $150 for mine, slightly used. I think now they are going for around $200. But that was a while ago.

I play mine through a Sound system and have actually gotten a few comments like, "where are you hiding your amp, that sounded killer." I used a Mesa Rectifier tone that one guy thought was hidden off in a side room and miked.

But then again, I took some time to tweak the factory presets to my liking.

I also just recently bought a V Amp-2, in case the J-Station died. Got it new on Ebay for $79. It seems to be a bit easier , in my opinion, to program than the J was. I haven't had the chance to really play with the settings to my liking. There are a few of the factory presets I have used that I liked. So, the vote on the
V Amp is still out.

But just thought I'd mention the Johnson. I think it would be worth taking a look at.

[leadfingers]

Well DUH!!! Take a look at the send date on the last message next time. Geez. The story of my life!! HA! A day late or a dollar short!

[sumgai]

Andy,

Well DUH!!! Take a look at the send date on the last message next time. Geez. The story of my life!! HA! A day late or a dollar short!

No one likes a guy who beats himself up for making a simple mistake --- --- it robs the rest of us of the chance to beat him up ourselves! ;D

And this wan't really a mistake, just an added opinion that bumped the topic. Nothing wrong with that, IMNSHO.


sumgai

[warmstrat]

I recently spoke to a guy who plays various fenders and a custom PRS through a fender blues junior, (...i think) and he said he ditched his boss gt8 in favour of the vox tonelab. He said it has vastly fewer effects but is vastly more faithful to the amps it attempts to emulate. Incidentally, i'm amazed that noone's mentioned the gt8 until now... What's the story there- isn't it supposed to be awesome?

[echobase2002]

The VOX valvetronix series. They're not quite modelers, but still mean little beasts. I have the 30Watt version.

It sims several amps, uses tubes for it's overdrive (I know I'm gonna catch hell for mentioning tubes if it's not ALL TUBE), has decent effects and can get loud enough to play out. The best part is the built in attenuator, so you can really push the amp and not get evicted.

Great product that I highly recommend.

[warmstrat]

Who has opinions on the boss gt-8? I've always been impressed with its versatility, but have also heard many complaints about the "fizzy", digital nature of its sounds. What's the verdict?

[leadfingers]

Well, ok, so I'm semi-alert and realize this was posted a Long while ago. But...I've had a chance to play with the V amp-2 for a bit and wanted to mention what I think of it after having the chance to mess with it.

1st. it helps having the Behringer FCB1010 foot controller. Makes jumping from setting to setting real easy. They do include a small, two switch pedal, but it's a royal PIA to jump more than one or two settings.

The tones, pretty nice, in my opinion. I had to make an adjustment to the input levels as even my Am.Std.Strat was distorting the input and making it sound sloppy. Once that was done, it was smooth sailing!

The selection of amps is good. A couple of "British" type models modeled after a Vox and Marshall. A tweed sound that fits some blues stuff real well. a really sweet clean tone that can be used for smooth, jazzy stuff and another clean tone that, I think, would be appropriate for some twangy country type stuff.

There are also some "Heavy Rock", "Metal" and "Classic Rock" tones. I changed the Classic Rock a bit by rolling the Gain down a bit and thought it sounded good. A bit like Marshal Tucker tone.

The effects are, again, pretty nice. Flange, Chorus, Reverb, Delay, compressor, rotary and a couple I forget (it's not right in front of me, sorry) . And the ability and range to change the amount of each is good.

My impression after messing around with it is it's easier to pick the tones you want. The tones are as good if not a bit better than the J-Station (and I had gotten some really nice comments on the tones out of that)

The outputs are changeable. That is, there are several different modes you can utilize. A couple for recording, and a couple of different ones for live. Cool for playing into an amp or into the sound system.

For the price, $79 on Ebay, plus around $15 or $20 shipping, it was a nice investment.

Now, the only thing I would warn folks about is that recently I have found, in other Behringer stuff, that some of it is NOT very road worthy. And, if out of warranty, well, it may take you a loooong time to get the part to fix it. So handle with care.

If lost or stolen....(lost?) Ok, if damaged or stolen, how's that, I'd definitely get another one and try too pay the same or close to the same price. You could get them at Musicians Friend for $99 +S/H.

All in all, I'd rate it 9 out of 10.

Thanks for reading,
Have fun!

Andy S.

[warmstrat]

Tales of the SansAmp range of pre-amps has just reached my ears. Any debate there?

[mlrpa]

I used the Sans amp when they first appeared, and while impressed, thought that they we a bit limited. IMHO the most important sound, is that of super clean. And that was lacking on the Sans amp.

I have to agree with Lead on the Behringer. I have the V-amp2, and love it!I think the amp sims are realistic, and the effects are quite usable. And with the addition of the editing software that's free to download, you can't beat it. And while it's true about some of them being DOA, if yours works perfectly out of the box, it "should" last a lifetime. Barring Pete Townsend borrowing it.

[ccso8462]

Well guys, I guess I will add my 2 cents. I've been using a PODxt for the last year, and I really do like it. I haven't used it for recording, but have run it through a couple of different amps. Here's what I've found out: Through my Fender VibroChamp it sounds pretty lousy. Through a Peavey KB2 keyboard amp it's pretty good, but the best response I've had is running it through my Peavey Bandit Transtube using the power amp input, NOT the guitar inputs. I get good results with not only my electrics, but also my old Washburn acoustic with an early Barcus Berry piezo under the bridge.
I guess my point would be to that IMHO what you run a modeler through is as important as the modeler itself.

Carl

[andy]

I've been using a Pod for some time now too. I've found it fairly satisfying both for practising and for recording. There does seem to be a slight EQ peak in that 'digital' upper mid to high frequency range when listening for long periods, but I think it actually helps the guitar to sound clearer in a mix, in a way, so isn't a real killer. I've certainly heard engineers EQ a guitar to sound far worse in the name of sitting it into a mix!

Most importantly, a far as recording is concerned, at least, I think it is important to think of the tone as a *recorded* guitar tone- if one plays through a modeller expecting to feel like your standing in front of a favourite valve amp, its just not going to happen. Bear in mind that even a fine 'boutique' amp with an ill placed cheapo SM57 knock off slapped in front of it can sound like poop, likewise a good amp and good mic can still be set up to sound muddy or thin and fizzy if required/bungled.

Also, the brand thing is a double edged sword too- the idea of a brace of Marshalls, Fenders, Boogies, and whatnot sounds like a fine armoury of tools, and that was partly my motivation for looking at modellers, but its also too easy to get caught up in wondering exactly how much a preset sounds like an exact amp rather than looking at the useage- e.g. to play early 80's style metal the top choice will likely be the Marshall JCM800. After that point, it is best to get on with rocking like Venom(!) rather than panicking about that extra 1/2 DB you reckon would or wouldn't be there on the real thing at 1k htz or wherever. So long as the sound works. And so far, for plenty of styles (not just spandex metal!) I've found that they do seem to. I'm even using two for stereo.

I only know the Pod so far, but I would like to try a V-amp. The price is good, and I would prefer a rack unit over the blob-type units I have lying on the studio floor in a tangle of cables. The rack Pod seemes to be two or three times the cost of the blobs.

I think I may have digressed a bit here, but yup, the Pod has proved to be very useful so far, though there is a little background hiss, unrelated to the realistic amp/pickups background noise from the models.

[ccso8462]

Andy, you bring up some good points about modelers and recording. I like the different sounds that a modeler gives me, but I have never been able to exactly reproduce the true sound of a tube amp.
The really nice thing about a unit like the Pod is that you get a lot of sound for the price. Maybe someday I'll win the lottery and build a big house with one whole floor dedicated to music, and every type of amp and guitar I desire. ;D In the meantime, a decent modeler will have to do.

BTW, guys, if I ever do get that big house I'll invite everybody for a week-long jam no one will ever forget!

[andy]

Yes, variety is the spice of life, as they say.

Its fun to have spent 80.000 pretend pounds on 32 pretend quality amps- I know I'll always have the sound I'm looking for in there somewhere, but I'm still looking at getting a valve amp again. I don't really need one these days, playing bass when I'm out, but there still ain't nuthin like it yet. The sounds are getting closer, but I have yet to find a modeller that has that hot glass and burning dust smell after a couple of hours action!

[rivertramp]

If you want just an amp modeler with great sound for just a few bucks, pick up a Behringer GDI 21. Some of tweed sims are kind of flat, but try out some of the setting suggestions they pack with this thing, you'll find something you like. I use this in my chain right after an MXR Super Comp going into a Peavey Classic 30 and it smokes.

[ashcatlt]

My first amp modeler was a Korg ToneWorks A4. It was a leslie simulator, but if you stopped the rotors it had a very nice convincing tube amp tone with plenty of crunch at high gain settings. Obviously quite limited. You could vary the tone by adjusting the blend between the horn and bass rotor. If you let it spin for a second and then stopped it you could get random tonal variations. Used if for quite a while.

Then I got the SansAmp GT2. These things sound great, but are again fairly limited. As somebody mentioned above, it does lack a true clean setting. It seems to darken and muddy up a bit when you pull back on the gain settings. I used this for years, though, on guitar and bass, and was very happy with the results.

I own the SansAmp Tri-OD as well. It's not quite as flexible. Two of the switches from the GT2 (mic and mod, or whatever they're called) are not represented at all. The third (amp) is replaced by a stomp switch. You can set different gain and volume for each of the amps and step through them. This is not anything I would ever use, but it does sound just as good as the GT2, and I would let my guest guitarists use it while I played through the GT2.

At some point I picked up one of those Korg multi-effects pedals. Not sure of the model number, I got it specifically for the amp models, which are frankly not great. They are, however, quite a bit better than nothing. I bought this specifically because my SansAmps were in our New Orleans studio and I wanted something I could play through when I visited the studio in the Tampa Bay area.

In 2000 I found myself in what I remember being a Mars superstore somewhere in TX with a bit more cash than I needed. Sat down and did some side-by-side tests with the amp modelers they had available at the time. I know I tried the Vox, and I think one of the early Pods, and some Korg thing. I chose the V-amp. It was the cheapest, but it also had the most different amps (16!) and speakers (15) of all of them.

Most important it sounded best to my ears. It had an open, airy kind of top end without any of the digital harshness or DI type "piezo" sound that some of the others had. I can't really say how authentic sounding the models are. All I can say is that I liked them better. Interesting, the AC30 model was one that I paid close attention to, and I was happier with Behringer's version than Vox's!

Not too long thereafter they released the V-amp2, which doubled the number of amp models. I was a little disappointed, though I figured that it might have been the reason the store was selling off the model I got at $69 new. Something struck me to email Behringer support with my concern. They shipped me a little chip and some installation instructions the next day (completely free), and within a week I had a V-amp2. The only difference is that the second set of amps isn't labeled on the selection encoder, so I sometimes need to look in the manual.

I have since also picked up a Bass V-amp. I use it for bass, obviously, but also sometimes for guitar. It's got a wide range of great sounding SS-style clean tones. It's also got a completely different set of speakers. Want to play marshall head through one of those Sunn folded horn 2x18s? How about an AC30 through the speaker in an Ampeg fliptop 15"? I do have trouble with this thing putting a digital sounding distortion sometimes, though. Can't really figure out if it's from too high an input level, clipping the ADC, or if somehow the software is creating a signal that's clipping at the DAC.

I never use the effects on either of the V-amps because to me post-amp effects sound like crap. For the things I do, it's fairly important that the effects interact with the overdrive in a natural way, so I use pedals in front of the thing. Even the spring reverb in the guitar one comes after the speaker sim, which is just plain weird. I do, however, rely heavily on the on board pre-amp compressor built into the bass unit. Not really the best compressor, but it's quick and easy and does what it needs to do.

[bluesjunior]

Hi everybody, I just found these forums yesterday while googling and this topic is kinda interesting to me as I had been weighing up the options on buying a Fender Super Champ XD due to the amount of positive feedback on the FDP. Since buying my Bluesjunior around 5yrs ago I find I use it for most all my needs nowadays but after reading the posts on the SCXD thought that it could be an interesting amp to have at home as well.

I decided to drag my old 70's Carlsbro Twin 60 valve head and the 2x12 Celestion G12H closed back speaker cab out of storage to check out and clean up with a view to selling them to raise the cash for the SCXD purchase. While in the storeroom I also had a look for what else I could sell and spotted a couple of stomp boxes and surprise surprise, a next to new Zoom GM200 VAMS which I had bought just prior to my BJr' used a couple of times and due to the BJr' being so good had gradually forgotten about.

After cleaning up the TC60 head and trying it out with the 2x12 cab to check it out I decided i'd also try it with the Zoom amp modeller. The TC60 is a loud amp and the reason I had it stored was that as I only play at home now it was just to loud to play at home and get any kind of grit in it without using a pedal. Even on the low impedence socket on the guitar channel if the volume was over 1/2 pictures would be falling down off the walls.

Anyway I found out I could have the volume on the amp up around 2 (5 being max on this amp) and use the master volume on the Zoom to control the room level and wow what a revelation it was. I won't be selling them that's for sure and I won't be buying the SCXD either as the 11amp simulations on the Zoom does me fine and the Tweed setting is just dirty blues heaven on it.

Being mainly used to the guitar into the amp I have a question though. Which is the best way to use the tone controls ie set the tone controls on the amp to preference and leave the Zoom EQ in the middle or set the amp EQ in the middle and use the Zoom EQ for preferences?.

[ashcatlt]

Best way is to run the amp modeler into a clean, flat, full-range amp. A powered PA speaker (JBL Eon, etc), keyboard amp, even some bass amps.

Using the amp sim as a fancy booster/overdrive/eq is certainly a valid approach, but the answer to your question on that really is "what sounds better?" You could use both.

[bluesjunior]

Thanks Ashcatlt, When you say flat, do you mean the tone controls at 0 or in the middle?.

[ashcatlt]

When i say flat I mean that the frequency response coming out is as close as possible to what you put in. Whatever it takes to accomplish that. A full range speaker cabinet (of which you will find none on amps built for guitar) is the first step. Tone control settings depend on how the tone circuit is implemented.

Most PAs, and I think also most keyboard/bass amps, will get you close to flat with the tone controls in the middle - as in no boost and no cut. I just read somewhere, though, that Fender amps are built to have some sort of non-linear frequency response when the controls are centered. Not sure on the particulars.

Look, the point is that the amp modeler is trying to impart the overall frequency response of a given amp/speaker combination. If you run direct out from the sim into a recorder, you will be recording something that is supposed to sound very close to a real amp in a real space.* So, now you go running it through some tube head and guitar cab, which alter the frequency response. You'll be getting more of the sound of that amp and speaker than of the modeler itself.



*I've often wondered what mic they intend to emulate, but without that information I always assume a theoretical perfect mic, or what your ears would hear if you stood in front of the amp.

[frederickthe8th]

Well here it goes, I've been using a Korg Tone Works, AX1500G for some time now. If you take the time to tweek it you can have some fun. I run it though a Revera 45 Chubster or a Mesa Studio 22 or run em stereo (both at once). I find that if you shutt off the amp mod you can dial in more of a true tone. Oh yeah, I use a Strat with Lace pu's or a 61 w/original pu's. The echo's are great as well as other effects.

[turbo]

This is an Interesting thread ( By the way hi to all you Guru's from a new guy to this forum)
I see the Pods discussed but Nothing on Line 6 modeling amps.

Ive heard some disparaging things arount virtual world regarding Line 6 modeling amps of late and all I can do is comment on the one I have......Its a few years old...The spiderII 30....

Now i suppose its possible for any company to screw up a perfectly good amp ( for what it is..afterall, its not a tube amp)

Even Fender managed to do that!! But this spider II which was Guitar player magazines Pick of the litter when it came out is very good at what it is suppossed to do..Model other amps. It has some excellent features for a practice amp and will at the very least give you an Idea What tones you are looking to achieve for when you head out to make the big purchase.......

This is NOT a studio amp for recording
This is NOT an Amp for small venue gigging

This is a Practice amp pure & simple that you can plug headphones into..............a CD player into................OR even Play at volume ( enough to stay with a drum Kit) for informal rehersals without having to dig out your Big Ol Gigging equipment like you would for Formal Rehearsals.

Its clean enough to run an acoustic through & Muddy enough to get your Cheek safety Pins Buzzing ( for those into that kinda tone)
It will give you Fender Blues tones, Vox Brit Tones or Marshall Plexi tones.

NOT Exact mind you, it will not have that same tube warmth BUT it will be close enough for practice sessions and to top it off, you wont need to get out your Pedals to achieve that tone ( although keeping a spare compressor sustainer in the bedroom is a Luxury worth considering...at least for me LOL )

SO..............Who wants to start in slamming the Line 6 Spider II-30
I'm expecting it with all ive heard.........But I venture to say that if you are slamming it, you wanted something from it it was never meant to provide and NEVER could provide.........Tube Warmth.

So Slam it for what it is and was Meant to be, Not for what it can never be!!
Besides, Who actually gigs with a Solid State Amp or even a transtube amp???
NOT Me..................never happen

[sumgai]

turbo,

Welcome to the NutzHouse! ;D

..........
Besides, Who actually gigs with a Solid State Amp or even a transtube amp???

You might be surprised!

Besides, remember which thread this is..... it's certainly not the "My tone is better than your tone" topic, that's over in The Coffee Shop. Here, we're discussing modelers, and yes, the Line 6 Spider qualifies quite nicely. But for the most part, most modeler makers don't include a handy-dandy amp with their efforts, they leave that up to us, the users. We, and I mean that in the most public sense, have determined that if we want to use the amp simulations, we MUST use a flat-frequency-response amplifier and speaker combination. That pretty much precludes any tube-driven solution, because there are none. That "gen-u-wine tube-derived warmth" which you want so desperately is going to color the simulator's output, and there's no getting around it, sorry to say.

Now if we're willing to forego the amp-sim portion of the modeler, then a tube amp might indeed be just the ticket. But trying to make an amp-sim work through a regular guitar amp/speaker setup (tube or ss)? Naw, ain't gonna happen.... at least, not well enough to consider useful - not even in the bedroom.




sumgai

[ux4484]

I seem to recall, a number of folks here gig with SS amps. We know newey is for one (he just re-speakered his Fender).

I gigged (Bass) back in the day with a SS Ampeg and Peavy Bass head (both rentals) and was pretty happy with the tone (though the Ampeg was a bit overpowering for my tastes). They were both ultra-reliable.

Were I to gig again, I don't think I'd hesitate to use my Fender SS FM212R (now rebadged a "Frontman" With a traditional Blackface look and relabeled speakers).

The FM212R has an excellent clean channel, though I did replace the speakers (with 12" Jensen SD's), which improved the gain channels sound of this amp tremendously (newey had a similar result), but the originals would have done in a pinch (now the amp has a much more linear volume response than it did originally when it went from barely audible at 1 to shockingly loud at just above 2). It does an excellent job with my Digitech, though I have to say that the Digitech has not got much wear of late (other than as a drum machine) since I started using an Art Tube MP with the Epi LP.

I'm starting to get slightly burnt out on my Digitech Modeler, while it does gobs of stuff, it is not really easy to tweak it on the fly. I'm starting to understand why so many pros go with a pedal board with just the effects you want, instead of having that giant menu in front of you all the time (they have since significantly revamped their interface to be more pedalboard like).

Though... on the other had, If I were gigging, It would be fairly easy to set up the Digitech with all the modeling/effects for a fairly extensive set list, of course this takes some organization and planning (and backing it up). The Digitech also lets you backup and load your user settings, so via a computer you could load up another 40 "sounds" in just a minute or two (assuming you've spent the hours setting them up originally)......but I digress.

Best Modeler for "WHAT" is the question.
Before buying the Digitech, I played with a POD and a V-Amp, and decided that I liked the recording and vocal features built into the Digitech which made it a better value than the other two. I've come to like the Auto-Wah and Yah-Yah operation on the Digitech, though the Chorus is a bit muddled (as Chris would say "Chorus IS") for my liking. No matter what you buy, you are sacrificing something to save a few bucks somewheres else. If it was just about effects and modeling, I would have gone POD, if it was just about the cheapest box to do the job, I would have gone V-amp. But as it stands, I wanted something that came with a digital recording interface and offered effects/modeling for both my guitar and voice. for $249 at the time the RPx400 (now discontinued) was the best value.

Ask yourself: What do I EXPECT from a modeler? start there.
Then ask: What MIGHT I like down the road? and look at the features beyond what you expect. Then go wail on them until the salesdudes at GC kick you out....or you buy something .

[ashcatlt]

I think I mentioned earlier, but I'll say it again just in case. I spent almost half my guitar playing career wishing I had a convincing amp/speaker modeler. Before that, my favorite amp was a Crate G40C, all SS.

The only issue I've got with something like those Line6 amps is, you know, how well can a 2x12 cabinet approximate a flat response? I guess it's possible that they found a way to get reasonably close. It's also possible that they found a way to compensate for its deficiencies in their speaker sim algorithm.

Probably not a fair comparison, but I had a Behringer modeling amp (added bonus when I bought their extremely cheap strat) which really always sounded like a single 8" open back cabinet no matter which model I chose. You could hear a change in the character of the overdrive, but never really shake that basic frequency curve.

Anyway, I'd have to argue that the Vetta is a recording amp. Assuming, of course, that it has a line-level output (headphone out will work in a pinch) which includes speaker simulation.