P-Rails (or not)

[ChrisK]

Seymour Duncan has developed a pickup based on a P-90 in a Phat Cat form and 1/2 of a rails pickup.

It's called the P-Rails which is somewhat unfortunate since it has only ONE rail. I guess if'n one gets a set, they gots some of them P-Rails then (but then again, it's only marketing).

The specs in this link are incorrect and generally GeFooey. Ignore them.
www.seymourduncan.com/products/new-products/seymour_gives_g/

Anyhow, it's something that someone mentioned on this site some time ago that they wanted to do. I'd messed around with combining the half-rails components with other structures some years back, with the result of breaking most of the pieces.

I know that Duncan is supplying a very complex pickup to Pawar Guitars as long as several years ago (well, it sure looks like a wider and a narrower side-by-side coil pickup). But it's not the same as this one.

www.pawarguitars.com/index.html
Unfortunately, their link to their patent is for a soap dispenser. It's a nicely designed soap dispenser, but likely unrelated.

Ok, here you go;
www.google.com/patents?id=PhYGAAAAEBAJ&dq=6121537

This is a nice tour of pickup stuff and switching combinations. It was issued in 2000.


I really should go visit them since they are nearby.


I did modify a DiMarzio Multi-Bucker into a four separate coil structure, with one of them wide (as in two separated by an inactive third, combined with a forth), but the results weren't anything to write home about. Then again, this was before I'd bought an amp and was using a PA system with modelers.


Oh yeah, the point of the post. These are interesting and should be fun to futz with. I've got a set coming in and see some very interesting possibilities.

ESP has a HH guitar with them.

Splitting, tapping, series, and parallel are mentioned right off the starting line. This should be interesting since the coils are so dissimilar. Note that the single rail coils are the inside coils. I've also heard that the neck is too hot for easy balance.

[andy]

I have a friend who will me mightily dissapointed to see this go into production! He had a secret plan to make a humbucker from a strat single coil and a P90, matched to be fully humcancelling when used together, and splittable to either the P90 or strat pickup side, for the full range of tones.

I guess he should have got himself down to the patent office!

I think I'll send him the links to the P-rail(s), thanks for sharing it ChrisK.

[newey]

Although the SD description doesn't really say so, I assume that if one buys a matched pair of these that the coils are RWRP on one of the two?

Kind of looks like a P-90 with a tumor.

[RJB]

I just read about these on a PRS forum, Was just logging in to mention them!

I may need to rethink that whole "no time for modding" thing. hmmm maybe an inexpensive Agile as a mod base???

[ChrisK]

I assume that if one buys a matched pair of these that the coils are RWRP on one of the two?

Yep. The P-90's are externally RWRP to each other, the Rail SC's are externally RWRP to each other, and the P-90 and Rail within each pickup are internally RWRP to each other.

The ESP that comes with them has a DPDT Center-OFF switch that shorts either type of coils or leaves them in series within each pickup. This type of shorting is easy since it only takes a SPDT Center-OFF for each pickup. It just never made a lot of sense before since most coils were internally too similar.


I had thought of doing the P-Rail concept a ways back. The P-90 is too long to make sense, but when the Phat Cats (and the other hum-sized P-90s came out) I thought again about doing it.

Briefly, very briefly.

The average small patent costs about $5,000 to $8,000 to get it to issue. There is also a lot of one's time consumed in searches for prior art. A design like this may not sell significantly since it is beyond the current tone mantra in use. You know, if you want a particular tone, go buy a particular pickup.

While many pickups can be coaxed into sounding like others with the simple addition of passive components, most folk don't care or know the difference. Most makers are in the business of selling pickups, lots of them. Lots of different ones.

They make lots of money when they sell lots of them.


While I deeply appreciate the efforts that Carter Duncan is putting into this, unless one is already "in the business", a product like this is only one of many needed to launch a new enterprise. While there will be some winners, electric guitars are not a technology area. Things have remained so similar because, apparently, it's what the customer wants. Manufacturer's have done well adding on bling, and (slowly) improving the quality.

Marketing!

People ask why Peaveys dont sell as well as Fender and Gibson.
Marketing!


Unless the same keen understanding of the current market drift is afoot (along with the standard dollop of luck that always helps), the likelihood that one will even recoup the patent investment cost is not assured.

Now, there are groups of disgruntled old farts with soldering irons that enjoy a good windmill................


Seriously, thanks Carter Duncan.



And, if one looks aboot, the guitar embedded technology pendulum is starting to swing complex(er) again. One of the new Fender Jag/Jazz types has blending tapping/shunting.

P-Rails are afoot in production guitar(s).


There have been some complex patent applications recently. Unfortunately there is a lot of prior art a'board and a'boards, and the USPTO encourages industry experts to comment directly on published applications if they know of any prior art.

There was a good kick to the lower quarters recently regarding it being way too easy to obtain a follow-on patent that was fairly obvious. A much higher standard will be applied as to the required uniqueness.

[ChrisK]

BTW,

The ESP that comes with them has a ...

does not mean to infer that a guitar comes (along as a free bonus) with the pickups.

Well, it does, but that set costs $699.


I gots a project going with these. I'm ready to buy a body that will enable a serious multi-lingual build. Each pickup does series, parallel ('59'ish), P-90, and rail single coil. Binary tree switching, anyone?


And, it's pretty much the only guitar body style that I don't currently have as a playing instrument.

[newey]

C'mon, Chris, don't tease us!

A thread with some build photos is needed, methinks.

[mlrpa]

I installed a set of the P-rails in a SG last month. Nice and airy in humbucker mode. the "P90" mode.... similar to a real P90, but not quite the same. The strat coil in the neck, nice. Bridge position was super thin and annoying. The Parallel mode was a pleasant sound. Nice pickups overall, and I'm considering them in my Paul clone.

[ChrisK]

It's kind of thin so maybe that's why it sounds thin.

Remember, it's not a Strat coil but a half-Strat coil, hanging off of the end of one flat P-90 magnet. The blade rail affects the P-90 sound (a somewhat more focused field on one side) and the P-90 magnets affect the Thingle coil ( ) thound ( a wiiiiide, off-set field).


Seriously tho', were the rail coils the inside coils on your SG? I ask because I'm not sure how/what to think of this yet. I also heard that the neck pickup is loud and needs to be fairly low. (Well, I actually have a very simple solution for this, but I'm not talking 'till....)


And, I have an SG in need of something and just scored 5 carved-top 3/4" long bushing 500K push pull pots today for $6 each at GC.


I was going to put a JB Trembucker and a Jazz in it ('cuz I have 'em).

[newey]

I'd vote for the '72 pickguard, but with the gold hardware. It oozes a certain '70's classiness.

Very nice project- gotta do me a Tele Thinline soon!

[ChrisK]

The top picture was the '72 Thinline. It was shown with gold hardware.

[newey]

The top picture is the '72 Thinline. It is shown with gold hardware.

OK, so it was late and I'd had a few barley pops. Remove the "but" from my prior post and that's what I meant.

Those Warmoth bodies are nice, maybe a project for next winter after I finish the 2 projects I've got going now plus the P bass waiting in line . . .

[andy]

I may have moved mine on now, but I will always recommend the Thinline Tele to anyone.

And how about the '69 pickguard, but with a gold bridgeplate? Or would that be a bit much?

*In fact looking down the page at the photo(shop)s, it probably would be a bit too glitzy.*

*Or would it? I can't make my mind up!*

[ChrisK]

I can't find an accurate colored picture of the gold Tele humbucker bridge and I'm too lazy to photograph and add in one.

I've never paid much attention to the Thinlines over the years. You made me recheck when you'd mention "but the '72 with the..."

I kind of view this as a mixed project; it tries out the P-Rail(s) pickups, it tries a new wiring idea that I have for them, and it renders a semi-hollow travel guitar!

[newey]

(hint, hint),

Hint taken. But I'm a bit project-heavy at the moment, and if another guitar body showed up at the doorstep I'd definitely get the stink-eye- (Lady of the house wonderin' where it's gonna stop . . .)

Besides, work on the travel guitar proceeds, albeit at a slow pace due to the need to bribe my buddy for woodshop time. But last week I got the neck pocket routed and the bridge positioned, and bridge screw holes drilled as well as the string-through holes, Next step is countersinking for the ferrules, and routing the cavity and edges of the body. I'll post more pix on that thread soon.

And I ordered a travel amp:

Orange MicroCrush

So, I'm getting there on the travel set-up. Hopefully a thinline in my future, though.

EDIT:BTW, sort of back to this thread, the travel guitar is getting a single P90, a GFS Dream 90. Haven't really thought of the wiring yet, obviously not much you can do w/ a single P90. But tentatively the plan is for V+T pots, with the V pot having a push/pull for a direct-out solo option.

[ChrisK]

Yeah, I have a travel amp. It's the Korg guitar amp modeler of a few years past (and currently the digital front end in the VOX modeling amps) coupled with a pair of good titanium driver headphones. Ever since I stopped using the MK IV in the hotel room, no one has complained (what, I had it on the 30 watt setting) about the guitar.


Now, if I could just stop singing loudly when I play.................

[ChrisK]

THIS THREAD IS WAXING "ELECTRONICS AND WIRING" ( ), I'LL MOVE IT WHEN IT BECOMES A REAL PROJECT.

The bridge P-Rail pickup came in last night. There is a wiring diagram that came with it. It is for a two volume, two pp tone LP type setup. It realizes all four pickup modes on BOTH pickups in concert. It works in the studio as well.

This is, for both pickups;
Both coils in series
The P-90 coils
The Rail coils
Both coils in parallel.

I copied it into AutoCAD since I couldn't find it on the SD site and want to modify it ('cuz that's why we're here) anyway.

Curiously, on the "B" side under "additional wiring diagrams", along with a diagram that does the same thing but with just one pp volume and one pp tone, the exact same diagram as on the "A" side appears, but smaller. I guess this option is for 24 3/4" scale guitars.

Thimk, Dang it.

[newey]

Thimk

I doubt our younger members are conversant with 1960's-era IBM corporate humor. ;D

Ranks right up there with "I've Been Moved" . . . ;D

And the SD wiring diagram seems a bit limited, I would at least want neck or bridge alone options w/o having to use the volume pots. And some 3-coils combos could be interesting.

And since it's a Tele, a 5-way switch wouldn't look out of place thereon. Could even be one o' them there superduper switchy thingys.

Just thimking out loud, you unnerstand . . . .

[toddw]

Jun 24, 2008 19:18:23 GMT -5 ChrisK said:

I guess this option is for 24 3/4" scale guitars.

I wonder if they have another for a 22.7" scale guitar.

ChrisK,
I'm curious to hear what you think of the pickup? I got the neck version to use in the bridge position of a small guitar I'm building for my daughter. I think I'm going to put a Lace Alumitone single coil at the neck position so it'll have two unique pickups.

The guitar is too small to fit 3 pickups, but my plan, if possible, is to wire it up so I can have
N (alumitone)
N/P90 (not sure if Series or Parallel)
P90 alone
P-rail in series
P-rail in parallel

I haven't decided if the rail will face the bridge or the neck yet, but it doesn't really matter.

Not sure I'll be able to do it all because I don't want to use any toggles and don't know if it'll be deep enough for a push pull pot. Trying to go with Volume/Tone/5-way switch. Anyway, the wiring isn't what I'm asking about (yet ), I'm curious to hear about the P-rail.

Regards,
Todd

[ChrisK]

I wonder if they have another for a 22.7" scale guitar.

That comment was just pure mean sarcasm due to (and due, too), SD's silly inclusion of the same diagram TWICE.

I'm stating this since I'm concerned that they might have missed it.

Don't give them any id'ers. They might not know that you're not serious..... ;D ;D


Remember, the main ingredient in sarcasm is acerbic acid.


I am working on the body for the P-Rails project, which has also been oiled.
i37.photobucket.com/albums/e84/cekikta/2HB%20Tele/DSC05259crop.jpg

i37.photobucket.com/albums/e84/cekikta/2HB%20Tele/DSC05260crop.jpg

Dang, I really must be working on things...

I am thinking aboot the wiring scheme. Unfortunately I have several that do similar or partially similar things. One of them I am seriously think of filing, so I won't be posting or discussing that one.

But, I am primarily focusing on whether I care about reversed phase intra-pickup (the coils are dissimilar enough....).

I got the neck version to use in the bridge position of a small guitar I'm building for my daughter. I think I'm going to put a Lace Alumitone single coil at the neck position so it'll have two unique pickups.

I haven't decided if the rail will face the bridge or the neck yet, but it doesn't really matter.

Hmmm, the neck version in the bridge. You might have issue with this since, if the logo is oriented correctly, you will have the thingle coil facing the bridge. I've heard that the thingle coil is kind of thin sounding. This is why Duncan has the thingle coils facing inwards....

It does indeed matter at the bridge!

1. N (Alumitone)
2. N/P90 (not sure if Series or Parallel)
3. P90 alone
4. P-rail in series
5. P-rail in parallel

1. OK
2. parallel - BZOOORRRP!
3. OK
4. OK
5. OK

The Alumitone is a Lace sensor, not a pickup (in the normal meaning of passive pickups). I believe that connecting them in parallel with a "normal" passive pickup will "strangle" the output contribution of said "normal" pickup.

I have used them in series with a normal passive pickup. If I recall (it's been a few years), things are louder, but not necessarily way different in tone compared to just the single coil alone.

Again, this was in my "hey let's buy a set of them there brand new Alumitones and that there special pickguard and try them out" spasm.

This was done in the PadoukCaster with the Mike Richardson wiring scheme where I incrementally added them in, and unfortunately I liked the DiMarzio Virtual Vintage pickups that I'd had in there much better. The Alumitones lingered aboot for about 2 hours, and promptly went back in the box. I haven't touched (or seen) them since.

This might indicate that I could be convinced to part with them..........


SMARK on the FDP was a big fan of them and spoke highly of them.

[D2o]

Chris ... I just finished dissing "W" (name deleted) over here ( guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=3485&page=1 ) and what do you go and do?



Alright, alright, I know this one is grandfathered! ;D

DD

[toddw]

Aug 13, 2008 18:16:05 GMT -5 ChrisK said:

Hmmm, the neck version in the bridge. You might have issue with this since, if the logo is oriented correctly, you will have the thingle coil facing the bridge. I've heard that the thingle coil is kind of thin sounding. This is why Duncan has the thingle coils facing inwards....

It does indeed matter at the bridge!

I realized the rail would might be a bit anorectic by the saddles, but didn't think it would matter for this guitar since I wasn't planning to have the rail alone as an option. As to the logo being backwards if I put in in the normal way, I'm not worried that's why the homedepot sells acetone . . .

2. N/P90 (not sure if Series or Parallel)

2. parallel - BZOOORRRP!

The Alumitone is a Lace sensor, not a pickup (in the normal meaning of passive pickups). I believe that connecting them in parallel with a "normal" passive pickup will "strangle" the output contribution of said "normal" pickup.

I have used them in series with a normal passive pickup. If I recall (it's been a few years), things are louder, but not necessarily way different in tone compared to just the single coil alone.

Thank you for the info on series good, parallel bad.

I heard alumitones weren't all that unique alone and may be a bit sterile. But I also heard they were quiet, had a wider frequency response than standard pickups, and mixed nicely with a normal passive pickup. Can't judge anything via youtube, so I'll find out myself. Besides, the chrome will match the rest of the hardware and should go nicely with a blue quilted top.

Sorry you didn't like them, but if you feel like unloading one, I might be interested. And good luck on the new HH body. The wood figure on it looks nice.

Todd

[4real]

I checked out the Pawar guitars linked in ChrisK's first post...interesting...and has a great little 20 sound sample thing. I wasa little intrigued so clicking the patent thing, I got said soap dispenser...however...

patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&S1=6121537.PN.&OS=PN/6121537&RS=PN/6121537

should find the patent from 2002. Interesting, it does appear to have three coils per pickup (or something...not a lot of time to analyses the patent-speak). Certainly the range of sounds is pretty good and the demo worth a little listen even if I still fail to understand at the moment what is selected for each sound...anyone brave enough to work out what is going on there?

pete

[ChrisK]

Well, while 6,121,537 is the patent number, using the google patent web site gives one the pdf version without having to download a tiff reader for images.

www.google.com/patents

Download the pdf, these pictures are worth a thousand words....
6,121,537

There is a 6P5T lever switch and two DPDT push pull switches. The 6P5T is made from three wafer sections, whereas the standard Super Switch is made from two. If one wanted, one could use a section of double "D" 1/4" shaft and make any type of 2WP5T switch, where "W" is the number of wafers. You will need a lathe for this (or a drill press and jeweler's files).

The pickups are custom made for Pawar by Seymour Duncan.

[Mike Richardson]

The Pawar circuit uses 4 pickups. Two are side by side humbuckers which share a common set of screw polepieces, and two stacks with solid poles. The patent is available for viewing at www.freepatentsonline.com. You have to join, but it's free. For what it's worth, the Pawar circuit DOES NOT provide 20 tones, only 19. The "Barrelhouse California" and "Barrelhouse Rhythm" are the same tone.

[chase]

(sorry for the thread resurrection)

Jun 9, 2008 15:27:57 GMT -5 ChrisK said:

While many pickups can be coaxed into sounding like others with the simple addition of passive components...

I'd like to hear more about this. Would you mind elaborating a bit? Do you mean via tone controls, or by adding capacitors and resistors, or something else?

[newey]

Chase-

Hello and Welcome!- Although I realize you were welcomed already in your Utah scheme thread.

Unfortunately, ChrisK has gone, and can't answer your questions. He passed away a few months ago.

And there are several things to which Chris might have been referring, but I suspect he was probably referring to his article on Pickup Coil Response Tuning.

If you read through enough of Chris' posts, you'll see that he could often be cryptic. But the above topic was one he kept coming back to frequently.

[chase]

Terribly sorry to learn that! He obviously contributed a lot to this forum, he must be very missed.

Thanks for the welcome and the link, it looks like the diagrams have disappeared, but the article he links to has a lot of good information.