Rant Ahoy!

[andy]

Perhaps it's all that coffee earlier today, but I just thought I would share a little thing I've been pondering for some time...

It's all really what I would call the 'received wisdom' that has fallen into standard guitarist thought when describing pieces of gear. An example is the original Ibanez Tubescreamer as a universal benchmark for overdrive pedals. Now, after reading thousands of pedal reviews, having hundreds of 'pedal' conversations, and playing some overdrive pedals, I think I know what folks are on about when using the comparison (valve-like drive, with a bass dip, mid hump, and smooth highs :, but in fifteen or sixteen years of playing I have never played through one. In fact, I have never seen one. I played a borrowed re-issue for a one-week session, through a Fender Twin a couple of years back, but thats hardly extensive, use, and only through the one, distinctive, amp. I suspect that the majority of us (not all, of course) have little more, or much less experience of that specific pedal, yet it seems to have become a standard watermark, for not only guys who started rocking when rock itself started rocking, but for anyone who picks up a guitar in these times when the pedal in question is becoming rare, expensive, and more a 'home and studio' item than a 'play it out in front of everyone' workhorse. I just think its odd that we all refer to it as if we know it intimately...

The same goes for the Fender Twin Reverb- OK, OK, I've played through a couple of Twins and played bass with a fella who played one, but I've never owned one, never used one regularly, and mostly hear them 'translated' by a room, microphone, mixing desk, misc. effects units, mastering suite, CD player and speakers! The two I played were not even that similar sounding, yet I still describe clean tones I'm looking for as 'you know, like a Twin'!

And that stalwart of rock overdrive- The Marshall 'Plexi' (JTM45/100 in actual fact, if my researchers haven't let me down!!)... Never seen one, never been in a room with one being played. Saw some pictures, over which I drooled, of course ("Oh man, look at the tone of that thing."), and heard it via the same recording process as above, but actual personal experience or usage? Nada. But I'm still convinced I know what folks are on about when they're trying to get 'that Plexi sound'.

And the AC30...

And Fuzzfaces...

And guitars from the late 50's...

Yeah I reckon it's those espressos- I'll cut back on the caffeine in future and leave you in peace.

But anyone else get what I'm gong on about?

[D2o]

Andy,

I think I kinda get what you mean, even though I have way less experience than you do.

I didn't have any pedals until I bought a ZOOM GFX-3 recently. I figured it would be fun to try it out ... and it is.

BUT, I don't know what the "classic" amp cabinets are supposed to sound like, nor do I play my pedal through a "classic" amp ... nor do I know what benchmark "they" really used in modelling the sound to get what they believe to be the "classic" amp sound, much less their myriad overdrive, etc. options.

So odds are that if I play what is supposed to be one thing through my own amp, it's going to be quite a different sound than the intended sound.

On the other hand, because of that, I figure it's not all bad, because I can dial in a whole whack of characteristics if I want, so I can get whatever sound I want (or can, at least), out of whatever equipment I actually own. I don't have high end equipment, but I know what good sound tastes like (and bad sound, too ... but that goes without saying).

[newey]

Andy-

Yes, I get what you mean, and you're absolutely right.

I think the basic problem is that we're trying to describe a certain tone, or a certain sound, and we need some sort of benchmark in reality simply in order to be able to talk about what is, after all, an overwhelmingly subjective concept.

And the benchmarks we choose to use are of course imperfect. First, as you point out, our actual experience with any one of these may in fact be quite limited. Also, two people won't necessarily agree on what they hear, since we all hear things somewhat differently from one another. So your idea of what "sounds like a Tubescreamer" means and my idea may differ.

But, if we didn't talk like this about equipment, sound, etc, we really would have very little to say to one another as guitarists.

I mean, asking someone to describe the sound of a Plexi is about on a par with asking someone to describe the color red.

And I'd have an espresso myself but it's too late in the day here for more caffeine.

[ChrisK]

ME-50 is!


That's why I play things for evaluation thru a PA. It's clean, sterile, and consistent.

If I see something that I might want to keep, I buy it, take it home, and er, test it (thru the PA system).

If it passes, great.

If it fails, no worries, I return it and since I pay off my cards every month, it's a free evaluation. Even if you don't (oh, get one to use solely for evals ), it just costs you a month (up to 2 % max).


Now, to be fair, I still don't know what you (all) mean when you say "like the google-dang'er" (not to be confused with the real google-danger), but I sure know what I mean (and heard).....


You all do know what a google-ganger is, eh?
(Think dopple-ganger, but online.)

[lpf3]

Funny story ..... I've had one of those old TS9 Tubescreamers for about 25 years now . I borrowed it from a co-worker , then he quit his job & moved away , & I haven't seen him since ! I didn't even know it was special 'till my kids grew up & told me ;D The real kicker is , dare I say it , I don't really like distortion much .

Now , my Twin is a '65 reissue . I always wanted one . I'd never played thru one , but I knew they were "hip" & had to have one . And I told everyone for years , anytime anyone asked " what do you want for Christmas " A Twin . "What do you want for your birthday " A Twin . Became my standard retort , & of course a joke 'cuz we couldn't afford one anyway . Well a couple years back my wife went out & surprised me with a TWIN :ofor my b-day . ( great gal ,yep ) . of course I love it , but I don't play out much anymore so don't often get to really crank it & get some tone out of it .

Hmmm... is that what that old tubescreamer is for ? ;D ;D .


-lpf3

[mlrpa]

'Morning all,

I've HAD a bunch of those "benchmark" items. Hated the Tubescreamer, loved my Maestro Fuzz Face more, but only when running it thru my Mutron phaser, and Envelope filter. Had the 65 twin, and thought it was an ok amp, but not as nice as the Roland JC120 I drooled over. The 56 Paul I bought from a friend was a great guitar, but with a stupidly fat neck that I found uncomfortable against my Danelectro.

I think we use those benchmarks term because we're trying to describe a tone. "Jimi used a Fuzzface with his strat and Marshall." Or, "Eric used a Paul with a Fender Bassman." The second someone says that, we "hear" thoise tones in our head. So we use those combinations to describe the sound we're looking for. I use terms like "Roland clean" or "Marshall crunch" or the derogatory term "sounds like a Crate" to describe amps and tones.

On another note, I find it funny that some of those benchmarks are worshipped the way they are. The tubescreamer was a noisey, clunky sounding box. The twin, while cool sounding, had a hiss that was annoying at times. I sit back and chuckle as I watch the prices of these things skyrocket.

[sumgai]

Jun 20, 2008 11:16:17 GMT -5 mlrpa said:

...............
I use terms like "Roland clean" or "Marshall crunch" or the derogatory term "sounds like a Crate" to describe amps and tones.

I purely do wish that I could set you down in a blindfold test with some of my customer's Crate amps, particularly the VC5310, an absolute dead-ringer for the 1955-60 Fender Bandmaster. Side-by-side, one can tell the difference, but if there's only one (of the Crates) in the room, and you put it up against, say a SuperReverb, you'll swear that all I did was disconnect one of the Super's speakers.

But I admit, as a general rule, St Louis Music (now owned by LOUD Industries) failed to consider the long term aspects of poor quality control, and will forevermore suffer the slings and arrows for that shortsightedness. One golden apple in the barrel doesn't a prize-winning pie make.

The tubescreamer was a noisey, clunky sounding box.

I've been asked to fix the noisy problem, several times. Most often, it's just component aging, a shotgun replacement strategy usually clears it up. Clunky? Must be your ears are calibrated different than mine.

The twin, while cool sounding, had a hiss that was annoying at times.

Noisy pre-amp tubes, or else power-tube bias, too easy to fix to even bother mentioning. Fortunately, this occurs in probably 98% of all tube amps at one time or another, so most techs are able to deal with it appropriately. (Although some of them are less than totally honest, and may try to soak the owner for a major repair bill, but that's another story in itself.)

I sit back and chuckle as I watch the prices of these things skyrocket.

Now we're down to the nitty-gritty.

Perception does tend to over-ride all other considerations, doesn't it though? Whether that perception is based on a reality consanguent with other realities is subject for many brewskie's worth of debate, I think you'll agree. ;D




sumgai

[mlrpa]

Ok ok, I will admit, grudgingly at best, that some Crates don't suck. Most from the 80's and 90's however, really have to work hard to just suck. But I admit I was tempted in getting the new Flexwave 15R.

Clunky: ie: not smooth. I never found that the tube screamer could give me that warm round tone that I was shooting for.

And yes, I do know about how tube amps develope hiss and the ilk. It just always seemed to me that the Fender amps developed it sooner, and often, louder then other amps.

There, I have successfully defended my words that were said in the heat of a severe coffee jones. Can I have another cup please? ;D

[andy]

DD842,

Jun 19, 2008 15:50:16 GMT -5 D2o said:

I have way less experience than you do.

That doesn't matter...

but I know what good sound tastes like (and bad sound, too ... but that goes without saying).

But that does!!

mlrpa,

It sounds like you've been Living The Dream! But as you said, it's funny how the most hallowed piece of kit can be upstaged by critically 'lesser' items.

Thanks for all the other comments. I've calmed back down now! .

[ChrisK]

The reason that I posted ME-50 is that when I got re-interested in guitars and amps a while back, I had no meaningful frames of reference for any of this stuff either. My original interest was in the 60's. I got re-interested in 2001 when I decided to get a new hobby not related to working all the time.

I tried various modelers starting with a poor one that I won't mention, but it was cheep. I gave it away.

I ended up with a ME-50 (which I just sold to my bro' in law), but also have/had the BOSS VG-88, Yamaha Digi-Stomp, and many others etc.

I use these to get a general idea of what these things sounded like. Many of the original effects, based on open-loop transistor circuits, had effect that ranged from superb to lousy depending on the actual transistors and other components. Hmm, just like tube amps.

To further gain some understanding of guitar sounds, I bought one of the first Variax's available. I also bought the Workbench too.

While these didn't replace these instruments, and only sounded like these instruments, it did give again, the general sound of them.


This is why I run them all thru the same PA system. It generally eliminates the coloration of the amp.


So, when folk talk about certain effects, I sort of know what they mean.


And, the journey has been fun...................

[kuzi16]

hmmm... i always loved crate. i guess i have no "tone". a friend of mine in high school had a crate blues tube and i used to love that thing. If i could find one now at a good price i think id buy it without blinkin. ...of course i was brought up in the age of grunge. who cares if it sounds "bad" ... its supposed to sound that way. It was un-su-fis-tik-ate-ed and it was great. it was cheaper than many other options. I was playin it with my un-moded harmony h803 that is now in a million bits in my basement and the DOD blues over drive -- with the drive all the way up... it was a cheap guitar and it was my grunge. ....*sigh* i miss that set up.
....our band sucked though.