Opinions needed!

[mlrpa]

Hey peoples,

This is going to be a longish thread, so if you're in a hurry, read just the last paragraph.

Ok, I'm a guitar tech/asst. manager in a music store that's part of a chain. No, not THAT chain. So, despite my obvious hatred of most things Leo, I finally convinced the guitar buyer for the company to get a few of the American Fender Deluxes for the store. Great guitars, just a bit overpriced. So I wait. And wait. And continued waiting until yesterday. I get a phone call to come into the shop. YIPPEE! The guitars are here!

Ehhh, no. The guitar buyer informs me of Fender's new policy of the American guitars. The old policy was that if there was an authorized Fender dealer selling Americans within 5 miles of another store, that the 1st store was the only one allowed to carry them. Oh-kay, that makes a sort of sense. You don't want to a have a price war on a product that the profit margin is slim to begin with.

"But there isn't an authorized Fender dealer within 5 miles" I point out. Ahhh, but remember, that was the OLD policy. The new one is within 25 miles of an authorized dealer. (There are 4 "K-marts of the guitar world" (GC) in a 20 mile circle of us.) But, surprise surprise, that policy doesn't effect them.

"Oh.... Well, how about getting some Gibsons and Epiphones then?" (Good question, huh? At least I thoght so.)

Gibson's dealer policy doesn't have the same mileage clause but has a very weird clause all it's own. To be a Gibson dealer, you have to agree to purchase $4,000 worth of stock per month, per store, even if only one store is going to carry them. Then there's the fact that if you order, let's say, 3 SG Specials, Gibson can send whatever they want. You order SG's, they send Epiphone 335 dots, and you're stuck with them.

So the management has decided to drop Fender, and of course Squire, Alvarez, and other things Fender disappear as well, and has told Gibson to take a flying leap. But now a question remains: What is a great guitar in the all important $500 to a $1000 bracket? We already deal Ibanez, but to a lot of guitarist here in Washington state, Ibanez still has that "Made in Japan" stigma. Suggestions would be most appreciated.

[ccso8462]

The big dogs can be real jerks in their corporate policies. I know, I work for a big dog in another field. What about Peavey, Yamaha, and PRS? Washburn? I'm just brainstorming here, not recommending. Those are simply the first ones that popped into my head.

[JohnH]

If theres no Gibson, does that also rule out Epiphone? and if all the Fender brands are gone also, then that seems to disallow just about every guitar that the guy in the street will have heard of. Does that policy reduce the number of walk-ins from people looking for say, a Squire, to whom you can then show something better but less well known?

John

[Ripper]

I do love my Strats. I wouldnt trade them for anything. Having said that, I still think Fender & Gibson have gotten too big for their britches. Maybe 50 some years ago they were the only true players in the game, but not anymore. Im going to be in the market for a nice solidbody soon. I have my single coil babies ( Strats )...now I want a guitar with some beefy humbuckers. I was thinking of a Les Paul, but soon I discovered that the Peavey CT USA is just as much of a rock machine as any Les Paul, and at a much cheaper price. I dont know about prices in the States, but here in Canada for a nice flame cherryburst LP, youre talking over $3000!...crazy! Fender & Gibson need to wake up, and realize that there are alot of amazing guitar companies out there. How does it go? "you better start swimming or sink like a stone, for the times they are a' changin"

[Runewalker]

Deep, there are great guitars out there in that price range. However, if you are wanting a Made in USA imprimatur then that cranks up the marketing premium.

Not to get into the whole nationalistic argument about which country makes the best guitar, the Gibson/Fender cache is their association historically with great music and great players. So armatures that buy them feel like they are somehow swimming in the stream of history and greatness, and some may splash on them.

Having toured the Gibson factory, and knowing I am an old time Gibson camper, I was disappointed that there was nothing that clearly said "quality." The factory was using a CNC machine just like the Asian mfgs. There was a lot of hand steps, but it did not really suggest quality as much as inefficiency. And many of the hand steps were basically labor, and if quality standards are in place, labor is labor, Asian, Mexican, Lilliputian, USA, whatever.

So ignoring country of origin, I have seen nice Hamers, Jacksons (which can get pricey), and Schecters (which has some especially nice set neck units) that hit your price points.

Peavey has some ok stuff, is typically underrated, does not carry cache, but may be at least recognizable as a brand name for your customers. Some designs are idiosyncratic ( that hybrid Tele/Les Paul style is butt ugly). Predator is not bad.

I'll be curious which way your company goes.

One other option, depending on the marketing power of your company: You can buy up a shipping crate full of Chinese made units, where you specify the finish and component level and private label them.

[sumgai]

mrlpa,

As you know, I'm your neighbor very slightly to the north.

Fender's 'new' policy is a direct result of the new management team, who think they know better than Bill Schultz ever did about how to make the market work for them. Bunch of goombahs.

Peavey is as Runewalker noted above, but the problem is, pawnshops are full of them. A seasoned musician who knows this won't want that hanging over his head, but Joe Six-String might not be so wise. I'd put them at the top of Tier 2, right behind the big 3, Fender, Gibson and PRS.

Speaking of....... If you don't have to have that "Made in the USA" sticker on it, then PRS is a well-respected name, known to just about everyone. They offer several models that list at well under a grand, so your price out the door will end up starting in the half-grand ballpark, which is where I think you wanted to be. That puts you within striking distance of competing against both The Big Box, and most innerweb music stores.

Made in the USA for under a grand just isn't gonna happen anymore, unless one is willing to try unknown monikers. Dillion, DePinto, and perhaps Eastwood are possibilities. That last one might not have any USA-made models, I dunno, but they're worth checking into, at least. Stagg (aka Jay Turser, and other names) is all offshore, but has a price/quality ratio that's very much a cut above the average import..... again, worth checking out.

In-house branding only works for parents who hesitate at buying Yngwie Jr. an expensive unit, only to find out the hard way that he's really unable to do more than pose for the groupies. They'll gladly spend a C-note on something looks like the real thing, particularly if the store's name is one that's been in business for more than a few years.

What store are you at? I'll have a few days to myself in about two weeks, and there's gas in the tank. ;D

HTH


sumgai

[kuzi16]

ESP guitars are good. not to mention jackson. im not sure if either one of those is owned by fender or gibson but i like em.

[Runewalker]

SG's mention of Dillion reminded me of another frequently overlooked but high quality product: Tradition guitars. I have bought a number of their seconds.

At the time I was looking for 'mules' to crossbreed with our demented and evil wiring schemes, but after some luthier work to correct the "seconds" issues, the guitars were too nice to slap around. I modded the wiring and ended up either keeping a few or only selling them to friends.

Like all the mfgs. they have some Indonesian/Chinese entry models, but their Korean sourced guitars will go head to head with Guinder/Fenson.

I have come to know one of the principals in that company I could put you in touch with. Family owned company started by a longtime industry rep.

www.traditionguitars.com/

No, I have no financial interests in the company.

Another high quality company, that may or may not meet your price points, but do have the Made in USA glow is Heritage Guitars. Ex Gibby employees who bought the old Gibson Kalamzoo factory, and make very nice Gibson style guitars.

To SG's point about long term market value: other than PRS, which has the name but whose sub $1K products are Asian, none of these will retain purchase value much less appreciate like Fensons. So the customer will have to accept playability, sound and quality over investment value.

There is something perverse about guitars having investment value anyway. I have a couple of Gibbys that I am now afraid to play. One ding is worth a $1000. That is just wrong. Guitars should be played, not dis-played.

[RJB]

I haven't played one, but have heard nice things about Reverend Guitars. There is also the G&L Tribute line (equivalent to squier). One last thought is the Canadian built Godins are pretty nice too.

[mlrpa]

Greetings one and all.

Firstly, thanks for the time and effort put into this. I do appreciate it, as will the players of the Seattle area will.

We have decided, or more accuately, the management has decided, on getting some Lace guitars as a replacement for the Squier line. (The budget $100-$300 area.) I saw one, played a few notes, and went, "Ehhh, it's not terrrible."

Ok, as to the suggestions, we are looking at the PRS Korean line. Personally, some are just ok, others will melt your heart. (The Santana is a dream, the PRS Single sucks.)

Yamaha's I personally love, but most players seem to think they're "cheesey Jap Crap". Even though they were the first out of China, and have quality equal to the Mexi Strats at least, most players don't like them due to the over abundance of the EG112's. Alas, they are not on the short list.

Peavey's are a niche market. People play Peavey's because they alaways played Peavey's. Or they saw Eddie with his Wolfgang, and wanted one. Not so much today. And experienced players look at a Peavey, shrugg, and look at the next guitar.

Jackson and Charvel, while decent quality, are products of Fender, hence, not an option.

I am trying to get them to look at Tradition. I have a Paul copy, and it's absolutely wonderful. And the Tele Jerry Reid copy is a dream. The Jury is still out on that.

ESP/LTD, ummm, I am not a fan persay. They have geared their market to the metal heads, and the average Joe Guitar doesn't want that.

Reverend. Definate niche market guitar, but is on the short list.

Heritage are dream instruments, but are extremely hard to get. So they are being looked at, but I doubt it. They don't do that all important 500-1000 line.

I have been BEGGING the company to look at Eastwood. They are a true niche market, but are supremely playable, great tone, great look, but.... are they for Joe Guitar?

Hamers are Fender now. Sigh...

And while Schecters can be decent, GC sells them, and we just couldn't match prices with them.

We do sell Washburns. But quality seems to be an issue with them, and most players just see them as a wanna-be.

So, the short list is PRS, Lace, Reverend, and hopefully Tradition and Eastwood. We are also looking into G&L and Godin. (Which will please our northernly neighbors!)

Thanks for the suggestions, and I should have more info after NAMM.

[ccso8462]

The guitar in my avatar is a Korean PRS Santana SE. I paid $460 for it a few years ago. It has been an excellent guitar, light and easy to play. Pickups are hot enough to get good crunch and have decent tone. A little white filler shows on the fingerboard, but it might go away if I oiled it, which I have not done.

Possibly the only downside to the guitar is the fixed intonation, but as long as you stay close to the original string gauge it does not seem to make a great deal of difference. I think it came with a 9 on the high E and I always use 10's. The 2 best sounding strings I have used are Elixers, which are very bright, and Dean Markley Blue Steel LTHB's, which just have a tremendous tone with a big bottom end.

Just thought you might like a review on one of the Korean PRS products.

HTH

Carl

[Ripper]

Fellas...
I dont know why people poo-poo Peavey! ( say that fast 4 times )
The USA CT (carved top) is an amazing guitar. Guitar world reviewed it and it passed with fying colours. The guy who was testing said it had the most comfortable neck he has ever played.
Top grade wood, floating or locked tremolo. The neck is un-finished. I tried one out, and I was very impressed with this guitar. This is a much improved version of the Wolfgang. IMHO, it could run neck and neck with any Les Paul. True, its not cheap. Its about $2000. But you know that the 2 g's went into the whole guitar, while the Gibson alot of the money went into the name on the headstock. anyway...heres a pic of the Peavey.

[mlrpa]

No one is "poo pooing Peavey" here Blue. I've had a T-15, A T-40, a mahogany body Patriot with 23 frets, and loved those guitars. But to the average player, Peavey's leave a bad taste in the mouth. In the 70's, they were sheer and utter crap. In the early 80's, straight out of the box, they sucked. But with a bit of work they became dream instruments. Same with the 90's and beyond.

You have to remember, that we here are NOT the average player. We have no fear in using blowtorch or bandsaw to get what we want out of an instrument. Most players haven't a clue as to how to set their action, or, GASP, intonation.

I am sure most people here pick up a guitar and see beyond what it is. We see what it will be. After the hours spent tweaking this screw, or rewiring that pot, we will have an instrument that even the company that created it would be surprised with.

[newey]

mlrpa said:

I am sure most people here pick up a guitar and see beyond what it is. We see what it will be. After the hours spent tweaking this screw, or rewiring that pot, we will have an instrument that even the company that created it would be surprised with.

Mlrpa-

If this board needed a mission statement, I think you just made it. While I haven't had occasion to use a blowtorch on one (yet), I have certainly used a bandsaw!

If I didn't tinker with guitars, I would probably only own 2 of them- the same 2 I owned before I jumped into this. But now I have 8 total, and the others all have a lot of "me" in them. None that I made will ever be collectable, they're all still cheap guitars that have been extensively massaged, fun to do and fun to play after they're done. Hopefully, they end up better than when I started (I know, that's setting the bar pretty low considering some of the crap being foisted on the buying public).

Can't afford to have a collection of vintage Strats, I'll probably never own that Gretsch White Falcon I lusted after at age 12 (a la Mike Nesmith of the Monkees, for you younger readers). But the wife doesn't say much if I've only got a couple of bills into the thing cost-wise.

And, as far as your original topic on this thread, I haven't played most of the guitars you're looking at carrying so I can't give any recommendations. FWIW, I do remember when I was a kid that our local music store couldn't (or wouldn't, I disremember the details) carry Fender or Gibson. And this was years before any mega guitar stores invaded the landscape. So, instead, the owner carried Hagestroms, which were kind of the "poor man's Fender" in those days but were a very decent guitar. Every garage band I was in had at least one guitarist with one. I know they're still around, I assume Asian-built these days. Don't know if the new ones are any good or not. But that was the 1960's solution of one store owner.

So if it makes you feel any better, it's not a new problem.

[sumgai]

deep,

I'm not disrespecting Peavey, per se, I'm just pointing out that the more discerning (read: value-conscious) players have done their homework. They know that pawnshops are littered with Peaveys of all kinds, and invariably, they are either marked too high for the fact that they are well-used (abused would be a better term), or they are so cheap that you wonder what's wrong.

It's that understanding that an investment is made, both in terms of money and personality, and if it's not gonna hold the value in the first case, then it's not likely to work very well in the second case either. Bear in mind, I'm not speaking to my fellow GuitarNutz about their shopping habits, I'm speaking to the crowd about everyone else's shopping habits. You and I know that if we keep our eyes peeled (why I'm at those shops in the first place!), good deals abound. But Joe Six-string? He's outta da loop.

~!~!~!~!~!~
mlrpa,

Have the requirements changed since your first post? American-made, under a grand, right? Does this allude to outright quality, or does it go to the heart of bamboozling the customer into thinking that off-shore guitars can't be as good as those made here in the good ol' USA? Reverend has a very good rep, but I don't know where they're made. I've heard all kinds of stories about Eastwood, so that may or may not fill the bill. Tradition's another name unknown to me, but for less than $500, tops, I fail to see how they could can do it in America.... by hand, no less.

HTH


sumgai

[dunkelfalke]

newey said:

I know they're still around, I assume Asian-built these days. Don't know if the new ones are any good or not.

only the brand is still around and the guitars are built in china. now it is a poor man's gibson, not fender anymore.
the quality is decent, though.

[mlrpa]

Made in America really doesn't matter. (I really doubt there's a guitar MIA that wholesales for under a grand, much less retails.) They're still looking, and will have more info when they go to NAMM.

[sumgai]

OLP products are definitely not made in North America, but for the most part, they are good copies of whatever you might want - Fender, Gibson, Ernie Ball, Ibanez, they've got a lot of them. Nothing over about $600, most of them much less.

Worth a look-see.........



sumgai