Slant the bridge pickup the other way

[dunkelfalke]

Hello forum

I am still undetermined about what pickup to put to my bass bridge. Since I've got some spare rail single coils, it also would be a possibility.

But now to the question: why are Strat bridge pickups slanted that way and not the other way around, which would make more sense for me (more treibles for the lower strings, more bass for the higher strings, balancing the sound)?

[gitpiddler]

I feel it is to boost bass with a floating bridge; and it lines up with the right hand fingers when the heel is resting on the saddles, muting the strings.
IMO, the only use for the middle Strat pickup other than noise cancelling is for picking up the spring mount 'reverb'. A hardtail Strat is more like a Tele, with no useful middle sound source.
You are correct in your assessment of sound balance and p'up placement. If possible, try varying the position while playing to find a sweet spot.

[sumgai]

dunk,

Recall that the Telecaster (and its predecessor) had the same slanted pup. This was because people liked the twang of a pickup located close to the bridge, but on the bass-string side, you could get too close, and all of a sudden, the tone went to hell in a handbasket. Given the quality of strings in those days, that seems about right.

More or less, the design was tested empirically by Leo and his cronies, with the aid of a few musicians, and what you see is what they settled on as the best compromise they could get.

Nowadays things are different. While I would hesitate to call it "balanced" there are players who do indeed play with the pickup slant reversed from normal, and they like it. Althought I have to admit, thinking about it just now, I don't recall ever seeing this done on a Tele, only on a Strat (and more than just a few, let me tell you!).

HTH




sumgai

[sumgai]

Seeing that gitpiddler has posted just moments ahead of me...


Suggestion for both of you. Again, speaking from no little experience in pickup placement, I'll let you in on a secret - a reverse-slant mounting is not balanced in any way, shape or form.

You can test this the expensive way (lots of work, lots of pickups, more than a few scorched wires, perhaps a cracked pickguard or two, and who know how many hours listening to it all....), or you can do it cheaply, and have much more fun at the same time. Just snatch up a used VG-8, VG-88 or even a VG-99 (those last are still pretty new, so even used one's are a bit pricey, compared to the VG-8/88).

Those "handy-dandy" little gadgets will let you setup a guitar (the VariGuitar instrument) to your own tastes, including where along the string the pickup sits (up to three of them), what style (a whole raft of 'em), and what slant (for any and all of them, not just the bridge). You can slant them to ridiculous angles, and the unit will sound out as if you had the real thing in your hands. Ever wonder what a pickup would sound like if it was somewhere on the fretboard itself? No problem, you can find out right here, just dial it in.

An indespensible tool for testing what some given combination of wood/pickup placement/string type will sound like before you invest any sweat equity. And that's a good thing! ;D



sumgai

[newey]

I thought the whole "opposite slant" thing came about as righties tried to replicate Hendrix' sound. In other words, nothing empirical about it, just slavishly following the master. . .

On my still-in-the-works 4Caster, I cut the 2 middle pickups such that the slant is progressive, from no slant at the neck through the full (std) slant at the bridge. This was done more for aesthetics than from any thought that it would be tonally desirable.

ChrisK was nice enough to do a full-sized CAD rendering of the guard with the slants that I used as a template for cutting the pickguard.

Warmoth lets you specify the slant you want when ordering custom pickguards. You can specify std slant, reverse slant, or no slant. I've often wondered if a Strat without the slanted bridge would sound noticeably different.

[dunkelfalke]

sumgai: since that roland thingy costs about 500 euros here ($735) it is definitely cheaper to try out the real thing, even destroying some pickguards in the process ;D

[D2o]

I am sure you have seen some of these comments (they are not necessarily from the same thread) on forums elsewhere, but I did find these to be interesting.

D2o

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1)
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I have done this with a Telecaster and found the bridge pickup to be much more usable. The output of the high E seems greater as does the B and G and seems more in balance with the bass strings.

There is none of that "ice pick" bridge tone which is now slightly fatter and sweeter. The bass strings have less woof and the notes are more defined.

Michael Stevens does this with his LJ model and it has the same effect as my Tele.

www.stevensguitars.com/news/recently-shipped/


2)
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I have done the A/B with the same pickup in the same guitar. I put a reverse-slant pickguard on my JV Strat and kept the Tex-Mex pickups in it. I found the bridge to sound a slight bit more refined than with the stock slant. The treble strings were warmer and the wound strings were a little twangier. I liked it.

I moved on to a set of Chubtone '67 Reverse Stagger pickups that sound killer in this app though.


3)
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[sumgai]

One) Remember, all descriptions of "tone" are subject to both the ability of the author to accurately depict the idea he/she has of what he/she heard, and the ability of the listener to correctly interpret what was said. IOW, things like "ice pick", "fatter", "sweeter", "refined", "warmer", and "twangier" are all subjective, to both (all) conversation participants.

Two) dunk, I hate to say it, but European eBay is not for the likes of a poor starving musician. A used VG-88 can be found on (American) eBay right now for 250 USD, which Google says is 169 Euros. A used VG-8 can be had for only 150 USD, about 102 Euros. Seems to me that even paying for shipping and customs, you'd still be better off buying something from "over here" instead of "at home".

(Hmmm, I smell an opportunity for some profit.....)


Of course, I can always go out on a limb here.....

In the USA and Canada, most Roland dealers of any consequence have demo gear in their stores. One can saunter down the street into such a store, and demo the unit for one's self, without stealing from next month's rent and food budget. Of course I can't speak for Europe, things like Roland demo stuff may not be normal, I dunno.




sumgai

[sumgai]

Dec 10, 2009 6:16:24 GMT -5 newey said:

......
I've often wondered if a Strat without the slanted bridge would sound noticeably different.

It sounds pretty much like a Jaguar. ;D

To me, it has more sparkle* in the "both" position, just like a Jazzmaster or a real Jaguar. But your ears may hear it differently.

HTH



sumgai



*sparkle is my way of describing how two pickups interact in parallel, and spaced under certain nodes on the strings. Call it "lively" or "zesty", or whatever, it tends to brighten up the low frequencies, and to slightly reduce the fullness of the high frequencies, thus making the sound "stand out" a bit more than either individual pickup. To my mind, anyways.

[D2o]

IOW, things like "ice pick", "fatter", "sweeter", "refined", "warmer", and "twangier" are all subjective, to both (all) conversation participants.

Does this help?

"ice pick" means ... like, it's ... "shrill" ;

"fatter" means ... it's less "shrill" and more "rich" ... perhaps a little "mellow", even ;

"sweeter" means ... it's like "fat" and "rich", but with a sort of "sugary" quality to it ;

"refined" means ... well, duh! like "sweeter", but with a "soft" icing sugar quality, instead of regular sugar ;

"warmer" means ... "rich" and "mellow" ... but not too "rich" ... but, uh, not too "mellow" either though ;

"twangier" means ... sort of a "rubbery" version of "ice picky", but "fatter" and "sweeter" ... like, a little more "refined", but with a bit more of an "absence of warmness" to it.



D2o

[gitpiddler]

Being an AutoCAD demon without a program on this machine is painful
I replicated the EVH slanted HB on my Tele. I will, oh yes, I will photo it one day
I found the coils line up with my third and pinky curled when I'm palm muting. Raking the strings with those fingers over the coils give a semi-mute that I love.
But it also gives a reverse slant effect as the front coil focuses on the little strings, and it comes in first as the vol. increases; the lows come in around 5, with perfection at about 7 even on a hot amp. Satan lives above 8 ;D
Even if you wrap the strings around the neck, you're always over a polepiece . I doubt a VG can touch it.
Why Eddie steered away from that setup after his first Kramer I don't know. I cried when he put that one in the Hard Rock. My Kramer Striker is inspired by it, but they put it too far from the bridge I'm glad he buried the black and yellow from VHII with Dimebag, he got it right the first time (me too).
Not to mention when he jumped the shark on his old Explorer, which was THE sound on the first album. I still love ya Ed.

[sumgai]

gitter,

There are certain things that the VG can't do (hell, there are many things that it can't do!), but modeling the sound of a slanted pup is one of those things it can do, in spades. In fact, if you wanna real "treat", try this: string the guitar up backwards, so's you can play it "properly" left-handed. (Err, doesn't everyone do this? No? ) Now, in a normal situation, doing so would "reverse" the slant, yes? If you're ambidextrous like me, you now have the EVH sound you're after. But wait, you can't keep the guitar like this, besides, you can't play opposite-handed! (Just a supposition here, for argument's sake. For all I know, you are ambidextrous, and can out-play Michael Angelo Batio. (I sure as hell can't!!)) You need to return it to normal, so now you've wasted two sets of strings, right?

Not on a VG. Not only can I reverse the slant, but I can invert the strings, all with the stomp of a floor switch. And Roland apparently anticipated this very scenario, there are stock patches that do this for me! All I had to do was combine them, and Presto Whacko! I had the ability to confirm/deny the rumors.

And of course, it all boils down to a matter of personal preference. However, in Leo's defense, I will remind one and all that in those days (the early 50's), the predominant string was a flatwound, usually gauged at 12-52 (or was it 12-54, I forget now, it's been a few years.... ), and amps/speakers were not so capable of getting it on in the trebley range, if you know what I mean.

But if anyone wants to know what a Tele sounded like back then, and why the slant was favored by both Jazz and Country musicians, they need only give a listen to Jimmy Bryant, Leo's first "out of house, in the field" tester for his new brainchild.




And of course, my personal favorite, the one where he and Speedy West both shred like EVH, Kirk Hamett and Joe Satriani were destined to never be born.




HTH




sumgai

[gitpiddler]

I'm left-handed, left-eye dominant, so I had to learn to bat righty.
Like Steve Morse, I feel that the left hand does the talking, while the right just keeps time. I can't even use left-handed scissors well (my Indian name is Runs With Scissors ;D). Roy Buchanan was my favorite Tele man, that '53 (or 2) could really howl. I don't even try to play lefty, not much fun fighting the hard-wiring.
I have several magazines with various Tele histories but the videos really tell it.

Heavy strings aren't a big deal when the height is low enough. I like the bends to fight back. 12's on my Ovation with a laminated bird's-eye top are just enough to make it boom when asked

The VG concept is fascinating, just never tried it myself. Does it do potted pickups versus non-potted regarding feedback & sustain?

[dunkelfalke]

this is what i am trying to do:



by the way, does it make sense - for a bass guitar - when the neck pickup is twice as hot as the bridge pickup?

[sumgai]

dunk,

Yes, it can make sense to use disparate pickups like yours. It all depends on the tone you want, of course, but you can adjust, over some range, the balance between the two by raising/lowering the pups until you get what you want.

Or you can add some active amplification to balance the two pickups. ;D


~!~!~!~
gitty,

I too was born left-eye dominant, but I seem to be truly ambidextrous. Not that it makes any difference, when all the things around you are built one way (for righty's).... When you realize that little "life's lesson", you tend to either go with the flow, or you become very bitter and, well, we need not go any further, need we?

I've played mostly "standard" for the last 45 years or so (given the occasional time-out), but once in awhile I'll do "the other way", just for grins. Finding out that the VG could give me one-guitar/both-ways was the deal-maker for me! It doesn't look cool, and I'm not all that good as a lefty, but it keeps me amused.

Sorry to say, when the VG was in its design throws, no one (in Japan) thought to implement potted versus non-potted pickups. However, the Lipstick variant is said to be spot-on for a potted unit. (Taken as anecdotal evidence from a Yahoo Groups discussion, a few years back.) I don't know if that helps or not....

What the VG excels at is re-tuning at less-than-a-moment's notice. Since it has two processor chains, I can re-tune one to harmonize myself, which really freaks out the non-cognoscenti. ;D For confirmation on that score, just visit Joni Mitchell's website. She admits that she was ready to give up touring, until the VG-8 was introduced. Re-tuning on the fly saved her sanity, and possibly her career.

One of my favorite tricks is to use an external pedal (a Behringer FCB-1010) to modulate the tuning smoothly from one note to another, on a single string. Can you spell "steel guitar" boys and girls? ;D ;D Think "Sleep Walk" (by Santo and Johnny), and you'll know where I'm coming from.

I could go on and on, but that's getting way .



sumgai