Are fret leveling and polishing really needed?

[dunkelfalke]

Hello forum

Since my preferred guitars were stopped being fabricated 15 years ago, nearly all my guitars are used and desparately need a fret job.

I've bought some stainless steel fretwire a few years ago and since I've got two unneeded necks lying around, I am thinking about learning to refret.

Since I've got quite a problem with fine motor skills I think that I am pretty able to remove old frets and put the new ones in, probably even to file the edges blunt, but proper fret levelling and dressing would be beyond my capabilities.

So the question is: do I really have to do all that leveling and polishing to stainless steel frets or is it enough just put them into the fretboard and smooth the edges?

[D2o]

Dec 15, 2009 9:03:56 GMT -5 dunkelfalke said:

Hello forum

Since my preferred guitars were stopped being fabricated 15 years ago, nearly all my guitars are used and desparately need a fret job.

I've bought some stainless steel fretwire a few years ago and since I've got two unneeded necks lying around, I am thinking about learning to refret.

Cool - and I suspect you have the stick-to-it-ive-ness to do it, too!

Since I've got quite a problem with fine motor skills I think that I am pretty able to remove old frets and put the new ones in, probably even to file the edges blunt, but proper fret levelling and dressing would be beyond my capabilities.

I don't know about that, I think you just need the proper tools and awareness of the technique. It doesn't look totally overwhelming to me ... having said that, I've only seen it done, I haven't personally done it.

So the question is: do I really have to do all that leveling and polishing to stainless steel frets or is it enough just put them into the fretboard and smooth the edges?

The normal expectation would be that the frets will need more attention than simply installing them ... but if the stars all more or less align and you're not overly picky ...

On that basis, what you propose would be a case of "you won't know if you've gotten away with it until you know if you've gotten away with it" ... who knows? you may get away with it.

That's the extent of my vicarious knowledge of fretwork ... cyn or someone who has actual experience can tell you more about what is needed to correctly do the job.

Cheers,
D2o

[sumgai]

dunk,

I wonder.....

It's one thing to dress a fret with a file, but it's another thing altogether to hammer the fret in without flattening it!

If you're confident that you can install them without damaging them, then all you need is a bit of practice with a file, and I think you'll be all set to do the complete job. Since you now have two "unused" necks, why not pull out a file and work on one of them, just for practicing your motor skills.... After all, that's how the pro's learn to do it, they practice on the low-value stuff first.

In your case, you may need more than 15 minutes of practice, but if in the end you learn something, and you also gain confidence in your new-found skill, then I say go for it! ;D

I was gonna send you to our own Links Page, but it's a good thing I looked there first....   It would appear that we don't have any links to such niceties as re-fretting, or even just fret dressing. Someone's gonna have to get on that one. In the meantime, Google produces a skad of links showing all kinds of ways to do this, so you might start there. I know that there at least a few sites that have both pictures and videos of the procedures. In fact, YouTube might be a good starting point...

(EDIT)
Yep, I was right. YouTube has a series of videos, try searching on "guitar refret". The first few results look pretty good to me.

HTH




sumgai

[dunkelfalke]

That's why I especially mentioned that there are stainless steel frets, not nickel silver. Don't think I can flatten them with a rubber hammer.

And yes, I will practise on the unused necks first, don't want to ruin my poor, old and no longer manufactured Hohner Professional instruments.

[cynical1]

You're not really using a rubber mallet to install the frets. Normally it's a shot hammer with a hard plastic face. Unless you're winding up from Cleveland you really need to try to deform a fret while installing it...not that I haven't seen it done... you can try a fret press, but I never had much luck with one of those.

The tools you need to do a proper fret job can rack up quick. It you're not flush, but have more time then funds, there are a limited number of tools you can pick up to make the job easier and cleaner.

The most overlooked tool in most tutorials is the sanding block to set the fretboard radius. Generally some 200gr and 320 grit does the job, but you can use polishing pads under these blocks to really put "the smooth" back in the rosewood prior to popping in the frets.

You can also take the time to epoxy the probable flaws you'll create pulling the old frets. Stew-Mac has little pieces of material you can wedge into the old fret slot to keep the epoxy from flowing back into the slot. Me, I just leave it...make the neck look mean...

Another trick is to take a soldering iron and heat the frets prior to pulling them. This loosens the glue that may, or may not be there...best to find out by using the iron on the first few you pull. This also comes in handy on maple necks that have been lacquered or poly'd as it softens the clearcoat prior to surgery.

The leveling and polishing is important, especially if you're looking for a lower action. Put the blue making tape all over the neck around the frets prior to this as it isn't a question of "if" you'll slip with the file, but "when".

Polishing can be done by hand, but a Dremel tool with a polishing wheel really makes them shine.

Doing a fret job right is time consuming. A stable a secure location for the neck, good lighing and access is critical. And just like trimming horse feet, you need a good position directly over the top of the neck or you'll wind up with a nasty bias on your leveling.

Well, back to work...the boss is giving me the evil eye...as if I was working anyway...more to come as time allows...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[gtrdr]

If you are going through all the trouble of re fretting a guitar, it's pretty important to level & dress the frets afterward. I use a fret press that puts a measured amount of tension on each fret so fret dressing is very fast. But it's required to make the guitar play better than new, much better. Before you tackle a fret job, I would start with fret dressing.

Hope this helps

[dunkelfalke]

I've got mail today and just learned three things:

1) it is impossible to pull out old fretwire without damaging the fretboard.
2) stainless steel fretwire takes absolutely no damage from the hammer. and you can even pull it out again afterwards and still no damage at all.
3) my new fretwire is so thin that it nearly disappears in the slot for the old fret wire. thus new frets are maybe 1 mm high. that sucks.

[cynical1]

Dec 28, 2009 17:44:25 GMT -5 dunkelfalke said:

1) it is impossible to pull out old fretwire without damaging the fretboard.

Generally this is true. A lot depends on how the old frets were installed and how careful you are removing them. I always take a sharp razor knife and score along the outside edges of the old frets prior to removal.

Another cool tool is a heating iron designed strictly for softening the glue and clear coat (if applicable) on old frets. A soldering iron works in a pinch. A flat pair of nippers, like farrier's nippers, is a handy tool to have as well.

Rosewood always seemed to damage worse then maple. On maple some crazy glue used to fill the damage prior to re-finishing usually hides most of this damage. On rosewood you can pick up the little dams (I think I mentioned this somewhere before) to fill the fret cuts and take clear marine epoxy and fill the damage in. With the proper radius sanding block this will be close to invisible even on rosewood.

Of course, using frets wider then you pulled out covers most of the damage anyway.

2) stainless steel fretwire takes absolutely no damage from the hammer. and you can even pull it out again afterwards and still no damage at all.

I think this depends largely on the person wielding the hammer. As long as you use the proper tool you can install nickel frets with a hammer and not damage them. gtrdr prefers a fret press. A lot of folks swear by them. They aren't cheap, and unless you're doing quite a few re-frets it's probably cheaper to have the work done by a pro versus buying one for personal use.

As far as pulling them and re-using them, I think this also depends on the person removing them. My concern would be making sure the radius is still correct after pulling them.

3) my new fretwire is so thin that it nearly disappears in the slot for the old fret wire. thus new frets are maybe 1 mm high. that sucks.

Yes, you're right...that does suck.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[gitpiddler]

My first re-fret was inspired by EVH's first Guitar Player mag cover story (Apr. '81). He said he toured the Fender factory and saw how they install frets from the side. He commented on how he had mutilated necks pulling frets up and out. I've found they tend to stay put better installed from the side. I'm still using those frets today, 28 yrs. later, but years of Blue Steels have taken their toll.

I have found if the fingerboard is level, the frets are radiused and installed correctly, the frets are level. Smaller wire is easier to work with. I ended up paying for a re-fret on my other electric 12 yrs. ago because I was too busy and didn't feel 'lucky' at the time

Be sure and loosen the truss rod and bend the neck backwards a little as you're r/r'ing them. Practice on a spare first is advisable.

[sumgai]

dunk,

Damage to the fingerboard can, and should be, contained to the area directly under the overlap. (The overlap is the area of wood covered by the fret's crown.) The fingers (or barbs) that spread out from the tang are shorter than the overlap's extension, and if the fret is free of glue on the sides, then the wood should separate only for the area (width x length) of the tang's fingers.

Rosewood is softer, so it actually should be more tolerant of pressures of this nature (pulling up the fret for removal). If you're slow and careful, you can actually see the wood bend upwards (looking under the overlap). You may be able to stick a knife between the wood and the overlap, then press down to keep the wood in place as much as possible. Sometimes though, the fret "releases", like the pressure just pops it out of the fret slot, making a mess of small wood chips.

Me personally, I gave up on doing this, 'cause I figured it was worth it to have the local hotshot do the whole thing for $200 (USD) or so. I could just buy a new neck for that kind of money, but I'd have to turn around and have the same luthier do her thing, leveling and all that, which is around $80-$90 (USD). Kinda makes a refret job look less painful to the wallet.

Still, everyone should try it at least once in his/her guitar-playing lifetime - it builds character!


On the subject of Stainless Steel frets....
You may not be able to easily bend or flatten them during installation, but you can still mar them if you aren't careful. Even if no one else can see any damage except under close inspection, you will still know it's there. And everytime you look at it thereafter, you'll say to yourself "I almost did a great job, if it weren't for that." Not words of comfort, I'm sure. The moral of the story is, no matter what kind of material one uses, care must be taken during all phases of a refret job.

I rest my case.


HTH



sumgai

[dunkelfalke]

the problem is that the new fretwire is quite a bit smaller and thinner so the overlap doesn't cover the chipped rosewood. but i don't care anymore, the neck is in a so desperate need of a fret job that the fret puller had extreme difficulties to hold the old fret wire. now the frets are away, i butchered the fretboard somewhat but even then it will be better than with old frets.

but now the neck has got to wait until 31 december, i need a new side cutter, the old one was killed by stainless steel fretwire. i should probably get a diamond file, too when i am at it.

by the way, i just found out, that a japanese waterstone works pretty well for stainless fret dressing ;D

[cynical1]

So does a standard honing stone. After you tape off your fretboard take a Sharpie (magic marker...or whatever the call it there) and mark the top of all your frets. As you gently run the stone full length (nut to highest fret) on the new frets the marker will come off with the fret material letting you know where you're high or low.

HTC1

[dunkelfalke]

good idea, thank you

[guitarhospital]

Here are a few tips I would like to add to all the great ones that you have already received.
Its a good idea to remove the nut too, as the new frets may be higher and the nut will need shimming or replacing if worn as well [slots all wide and sloppy]
Tape up the fretboard with masking tape.
sit a straight edge on the frets / fingerboard, and adjust the truss rod until all the neck is as straight as you can get it. Want to heat the frets up to loosen glue?
If you use lemon oil on the fingerboard before using a soldering iron, you will see the oil thin and change viscosity when heated, along the fret edge,and you will know how hot it is and when the frets ready to pull. use a set of wire nippers with the top ground flat, or buy the real tool from stewmac.com
be careful, and if a chip appears to lift with the fret, superglue it back in place straight away. You only need a tiny amount, and it can be sanded later, and you wont find it.
If you are worried about bending the fretwire to a nice radius before installing, Fender and a few other companies sell pre curved wire.
To Glue or Not to Glue?
It is almost impossible to actually glue a metal or stainless fret to timber, however thats not really what the glue is for. It stiffens the timber on the inside of the fret slot, after installation. And when it dries, helps hold the fret in place. I like superglue or actually Hot Shot cyanoacrylate. Put some on a scrap of something, get and old piece of guitar G string, and use it to run a little along the bottom edge of the fret. Install the fret.
Do you have access to a drill press? If so, you can get the fret press end and matching radius bar to match your guitar, without getting a whole fret press, once again from stewmac.com. And use the press to push them in.
I dress the top of my frets with a dry oil stone. I bought a Norton one new, and never put oil on it, and use the finer 400 grit side. run it along the frets, in long smooth strokes. until u can see it making scratches on every fret.
To reshape the frets to the round shape they started takes a lot of skill the way I do it, as most fret files are bloody useless, and the good ones are waaaaaay expensive. The best cheap one is the Jim Dunlop. If you use a black marker pen again on the frets now, you can see how much you are taking off, and leave a tiny little line on the very top, that you can take off with a little second cut file.
after they are the right shape, you need to polish the file scratches off them. I find the foam backed nail buffing boards are the best. $2-3 and last years in the workshop. Even a second hand one is good, steal your wife / girlfriends, or ask nicely at the nail shop for worn ones. U can use them in between string changes to keep them clean and polished.
Polish them with a dremel if you have one, or car cut and polish and then swirl remover on an old cotton sports sock works. I used that for years before I got my Dremel.
Reinstall the nut. If you need to shim it a little higher, do so. Use a bit of wood veneer? You may have to sand it thinner a little. You can string it up with the nut not glued on, to get an idea if its the right height, and then loosen the strings and glue it on. Put the strings in place and tighten them enough to clamp it on.
Check truss rod adjustment and you are good to go.
Hope that helps, I have been refretting instruments for around 30 years. Remember to take your time, dont rush any of the steps. And for god sakes breathe!!!

[newey]

GH-

Hello and Welcome to Gnutz2!

A very nice tutorial - thanks for sharing your expertise!

Can I just send all my necks to you? ;D

[sumgai]

newey,

It might get a tad expensive, shipping them down around JohnH's way.....

But I'm remiss! GH....

Hi, and to the NutzHouse!

+1 for the outpouring of good info. ;D



sumgai

[Yew]

If you havent already done some work, you might want to buy a new (cheaper) neck, as if those unused ones are good ones, then you may as well not risk losing them