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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 19, 2010 19:47:58 GMT -5
I'm a bit bored with the sound of my strat, and I have a three way toggle switch lying around, on/off/on, single pole double throw I think you call it. So three terminals with the ability to have the switch in the middle 'off' position.
The main idea is to have one side of the switch engage either the neck or bridge pickup on, so that I can have a bridge/neck 'tele' combo, which will also by default give me the option of all pickups on together. This is easy enough (I think).
The question is what to do with the other side of the switch. What I'd like is to have the option of having the bridge/middle in series, for a meatier lead tone. Is this too much to ask of one switch? Or do I need to actually just get a two way switch and just stick with the first one?
I don't really want to add more switches, one's too many already (I know I could get a push/pull, but I have this switch and I just thought I'd make it visually subtle, Dave Gilmour style).
The more I think about it the more I think having two new options with this one switch is over ambitious and can't be done. Right?
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Post by D2o on Feb 19, 2010 19:58:29 GMT -5
I don't think you need to use that fancy switch ... have a look at this thread, incorporating what JohnH has suggested. Would that fit the bill? D2o
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 19, 2010 20:04:32 GMT -5
You talking about using one of the tones for a blend? Only thing there is that I use both tones, I have one on the neck and one on the bridge (no middle tone), and while I don't use the neck one terribly often, I don't like the sound of having no tone pot connected to the neck, it becomes too bright, and I do use it occasionally. A tone pot on the bridge is a must.
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 19, 2010 20:12:00 GMT -5
I'm realising that for the first mod to work, the neck (or bridge) hot will need to go to the middle terminal of the switch, which will need to connect to the normal point on the 5-way selector switch on one position, and the 'common' point on 5 -way in the other. On a three way switch this leaves me with a middle 'off' position, which is relatively useless. I think I need to get a 2-way toggle switch, and just forget about the bridge middle in series idea - not enough poles on the switch. The 'tele' tone is the most important one.
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 19, 2010 20:27:42 GMT -5
Or you could run the common to the common on the 5-way. Bridge and Neck hot go where they normally would, but also to the opposing lugs of the new switch. Now you've go Bridge-on in one direction and Neck-on in the other, with normal function in the middle. You can have your Tele tone at either end of the 5-way.
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Post by D2o on Feb 19, 2010 20:30:36 GMT -5
Sooty, please carefully re-read that thread I pointed you to - you will have one master (bridge included!) tone.
Cheers, D2o
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 19, 2010 20:36:27 GMT -5
My original ideas was basically this, but it's flawed obviously: The idea is that in the centre position, the bridge goes to it's normal spot on the 5-way, switched to the left, the bridge goes to the common point on the 5-way (as well as it's normal point), meaning it's always 'on'. Switched to the right, the middle ground connects with the bridge hot, giving me middle/bridge in seires (right?). The problem is obviously that the middle pickup in never grounded when not being used in series with the bridge. If I run the leftlug to ground, everything will turn off in the middle position, that's my read at least. What I need is a way that the middle pup can got to ground when it's not being run with the bridge, but doesn't go to ground when it is - which seems to be beyond the limit of this switch. Looking for more expert input.
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 19, 2010 20:41:46 GMT -5
Sooty, please carefully re-read that thread I pointed you to - you will have one master (bridge included!) tone. Cheers, D2o I understand, and thanks, I really appreciate your help. The issue is that I often have my bridge tone wound back a bit, but not my neck, therefore a master tone isn't really ideal. Yeah, I thought of this, but it seems a little pointless because the effect is pretty much the same whichever one is permanently on - except that you get a different result as to which 'out of phase' option remains.
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 19, 2010 20:58:43 GMT -5
Actually, the whole 'series' part of my switching plan isn't really right at all is it.
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 19, 2010 22:37:07 GMT -5
It would work okay the way you've drawn it in the m and m+n positions. No effect in the n or b position. I'm not sure what happens in the b+m position.(?)
Howsabout using it to switch caps on one of the tone controls?
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 20, 2010 14:20:44 GMT -5
It would work okay the way you've drawn it in the m and m+n positions. No effect in the n or b position. I'm not sure what happens in the b+m position.(?) Howsabout using it to switch caps on one of the tone controls? But when I was in the middle position, and the switch wasn''t engaged, the middle pickup wouldn't be grounded, so would just hum and not function, correct? Explain more about this cap switching idea! Also, do you think there'd be a way to acheive my original idea if I got a 3 position DPDT switch? Ideally what I want is to be able to have the 'bridge/neck' combo, and the bridge+middle in series combo using just one switch, while keeping the option of stock wiring with the switch off.
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Post by JohnH on Feb 20, 2010 15:23:32 GMT -5
sooty - theres a possibility if you can get a DPDT on/on/on switch (rare in the general vicinity of the southern hemisphere of this planet). Centre would be standard Strat, down woulrl be Standard with neck-on (giving you B+N and B+N+M), up could be one of two options, either: NxM, M, M,M, MxB or, NxB, (N+M)xB, MxB, B, B
The second one is looking quite interesting - you can keep seperate tone controls one of which is for the bridge, the other could do neck and middle. The tone controls would continue to control their seperate pickups in series mode, giving you the extra 'easter egg' of series sounds with full bridge treble and bass only N. N+M or M, which are bright and very powerful sounds.
John
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Post by JohnH on Feb 20, 2010 20:21:48 GMT -5
rough sketch of idea above, in case it is of interest: John
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Post by ashcatlt on Feb 20, 2010 22:47:36 GMT -5
Explain more about this cap switching idea! This gives 3 cap values with 2 caps and your SPDT on-off-on switch. I'm pretty sure it works just fine with minor squinting in a normal shared cap Strat wiring.
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 21, 2010 3:08:23 GMT -5
@ JohnH: Could I do your scheme with this switch? www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=ST0356It's DPDT, on,off,on. Is an on,on,on one different? Isn't the point that it has a centre position? Really interested in maybe trying this scheme. ashcatlt: What would these caps actually give me? ChrisK says 'the woman tone', which I've heard of, but have no idea what it's supposed to mean.
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Post by JohnH on Feb 21, 2010 3:33:21 GMT -5
@ JohnH: Could I do your scheme with this switch? www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=ST0356It's DPDT, on,off,on. Is an on,on,on one different? Isn't the point that it has a centre position? Really interested in maybe trying this scheme. No mate! If you could buy on-on-on switches at jaycar, they would be all over my guitars! An on-off-on is different, with everything disconnected in the middle position, Useful for somethings (such as cap switching) but not for this. An on-on-on switch has the two poles, that change as per a normal dpdt, but in the centre position one pole is connected up and one down. Actually, you can get them in NZ - cool but pricey: www.guitarparts.co.nz/cart/Details.cfm?ProdID=701&category=But that switch will do this scheme, and I think its a goodun, given that is the only main part that you need to get all the extra tones. (also needs another tone cap, assuming currently theres only one shared?) John
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 21, 2010 3:50:03 GMT -5
Oh right. I actually get 10% off at that website, so it's not toooooo bad. Not a very subtle looking switch though, with the big square head - I was hoping to be able to mount this under the pickguard poking out, Dave Gilmour Strat style.
I may just get a push pull and add the 'neck on' thing only. But I am quite interested in doing your scheme.
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Post by newey on Feb 21, 2010 9:02:13 GMT -5
"Woman tone" refers to Clapton's signature guitar tone. It's easier to hear it than describe it- listen to his solo on "Sunshine Of Your Love" for example.
Various Strat schemes claim to recreate the Woman Tone. Some, like ChrisK's idea, use a .015uf cap. Fender's Clapton Signature Strat uses an active mid-boost circuit and a TBX pot.
The tone was very distinctive in the '60s- most lead guitarists went for a piercing, trebly sound at the time. Ironically, however, Clapton's "woman tone" was established as his sound well before he began playing Strats (in 1969). He supposedly got the tone in "Sunshine" on the SG he was playing at the time, using the neck HB only, with the Vol full up and the tone control full down. This went through his wah into a Marshall stack with all the EQs set to max.
And to JohnH and Sooty-
If On-On-On switches are such a rarity downunder, why not have someone send them to you? I can't imagine shipping would be much for a switch or three. I'd be happy to send some to the Antipodes, or SG would as well, I'm sure.
We could put an order together to John, then have him distribute them to any members downunder.
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Post by wolf on Feb 22, 2010 0:11:59 GMT -5
Well I thought it might be time for me to make one of my "legendary" redrawings ;D so here is the one that JohnH posted on page 1.
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Post by newey on Feb 22, 2010 0:17:39 GMT -5
Wolf- I suspect it was "Gnd", as it would seem that your diagram would need to connect to the output neg at some point.
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Post by wolf on Feb 22, 2010 0:30:16 GMT -5
Correction has been made.
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Post by JohnH on Feb 22, 2010 4:52:34 GMT -5
Thanks Wolf - Im delighted that you think it worthy of redrawing.
One further small correction per my sketch: S2 being a three position on-on-on switch, the middle position must be indicated. On S2a, this is done by a dotted line from pole to the upper lug, while on S2b, the position shown is the middle position, so no change there.
Im hoping no one objects to the occasional hand sketch? It's deliberate on my part, to show the first stage of a thinking process, which may lead to some development. It's also quick to do so more ideas can be illustated than only when highly finished diagrams are used. They can be done in spare moments away from the pc, and show direct brain to paper thinking. Sometimes a perfect computer drawing can look too good if its just a Mark 1a Alpha status idea! Also, I think many people could put up a sketch by hand when they have not yet got a knack of wrangling a cad or graphics program. We do this everyday in the design of construction projects that I am involved in, a sketch over a cup of coffee gets worked up to a better sketch, then a cad drawing, and then a real project. And sometimes the first sketch is good to keep to show how it all started.
John
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 22, 2010 15:15:59 GMT -5
This all looks awesome. I'm not much good at schematics, more of a wiring diagram man (paint by numbers electronics!). Also, I'm a little put off by the difficulty of mounting the switch Dave Gilmour styles - which I like for is visual subtlety - it seems I need an extra bracket for this.
I'm thinking I may just go the push pull pot route (DPDT on/off). I know I can achieve the extra pickup on this way, not sure if I can also use it to add the middle and bridge in series - any ideas welcome.
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Post by JohnH on Feb 22, 2010 19:28:56 GMT -5
sooty - those dpdt toggles are an easy install in a 6.5mm hole, provided you can embrace the aesthetic of toggles on your pickguard! But many folk do not. The ddpdt push pulls could do either the neck-on, or the series/parallel wiring, or other thngs such as phase change. If you wanted, you could have more than one push/pull switch to get two or three of those functions together in one design.
John
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 22, 2010 19:54:43 GMT -5
sooty - those dpdt toggles are an easy install in a 6.5mm hole, provided you can embrace the aesthetic of toggles on your pickguard! But many folk do not. Yeah, see, thing is, I don't like the aesthetic, but was thinking I would do the 'hidden toggle' as per the Dave Gilmour Strat: But to do that, I not only need to track down the switch, I also need to track down one of these: www.stratcat.biz/4022.shtmlLooks like something one could make, but I don't really have the tools for that. Otherwise, I'd really like to try Johns design.
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Post by wolf on Feb 23, 2010 0:58:59 GMT -5
JohnHHeck, I don't mind the occasional hand-drawn diagram either. I just think this is one of the most cooperative message boards on the Internet and it seems that whenever a good idea is presented, someone else will jump in to offer their ideas. (or drawings). I know that some of my drawings posted at GN2 (but certainly not all) have ended up on my own webpages but I like to draw these just to help out the folks here. I'll also admit that I don't redraw anything unless I find the circuit somewhat interesting and useful. By the way mr_sooty, is there anyway to get that photo enhanced a bit? (I really can't see that switch). And it seems you don't like to alter the appearance of your guitar. Well, here are some of my guitars www.1728.com/super7.htmand as you can see, I don't have the slightest worry about that.
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 23, 2010 16:13:46 GMT -5
JohnH I just think this is one of the most cooperative message boards on the Internet and it seems that whenever a good idea is presented, someone else will jump in to offer their ideas. Oh yeah, this forum is a God send. I have done so many mods I never would have managed otherwise, thanks to you guys. Well, that's kind of the point. It's pretty subtle huh. If you click on the 'stratcat' link below the picture you'll see what the switch is and how it's mounted.
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Post by wolf on Feb 23, 2010 17:08:51 GMT -5
Yes mr_sooty, I did not click on the link until you mentioned it. Talk about subtle? That modification is subtle to the infinitesimal power. A right angle bracket that attaches to two potentiometers so that one microswitch can be mounted on it? Now I know why I am not so hesitant to get out the Black & Decker drill. Still, I admire the fact that you would go through all that trouble to make a modification to look so unobtrusive.
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Post by mr_sooty on Feb 23, 2010 19:33:23 GMT -5
Well, I probably wouldn't, as I say, it's a bit too much mucking around. Will most likely go push pull pot and just do the 'pickup stays on' thing.
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Post by lpf3 on Feb 24, 2010 9:36:56 GMT -5
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