toidaudio
Rookie Solder Flinger
rock and roll preacher
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
|
Post by toidaudio on Apr 25, 2010 16:25:15 GMT -5
I am one of those DIYers... New to the board and have only built 6 or so guitars. I have a new project. I could not find a thread with this info. I need a 5 way blade switch usage that I need a diagram for. As follows. neck single coil bridge humbucker - GFS Vintage 59 4 wire tappable strat-style blade selector Instead of a 3 way, I want to use a 5 way with a custom set-up. can you provide me with a wiring diagram for my requirements?
position - source 1) neck 2) neck - bridge(single coil tapped) 3) neck and bridge(humbucker mode) 4) bridge(single coil tapped) 5) bridge(humbucker mode) Can anyone steer me to a thread, or help with a diagram? Thanks, Rev. Chris - Toidaudio
|
|
|
Post by sydsbluesky on Apr 25, 2010 17:15:19 GMT -5
That's gonna be a superswitch.
SD.com>support>wiring diagrams>super 5 way switch
Looks quite similar to one I just did. A good starting point can be found at the Seymour Duncan site. Positions 1, 3, 4 and 5 are identical. I'm sure it's ridiculously easy to modify the one on that site to do this.
And I'm sure someone will be along to explain how!
P.S. - I'm actually a little upset at timing... I could figure this one out, but I'm way late already...
|
|
|
Post by newey on Apr 25, 2010 19:41:35 GMT -5
Toid- Hello and Welcome! To get you the exact combos you want, exactly as you want them positioned on the switch, will require a Superswitch, as Syd noted. But we can get you pretty close with a regular 5-way switch, courtesy of Deaf Eddie: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=modules&action=display&thread=3761Scroll down for ChrisK's version with the HB at the bridge. Also note that the numbering of the switch positions is opposite from yours (i.e., neck as "1" vs. "5"). Note that the only difference between this and what you desire is at position 3, where you specified Br HB + N SC. This gives the somewhat odd Br HB + ( N SC + Br top coil). The sound of this may not be appreciably different from your choice, however- it's got all the same coils running, anyway.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 25, 2010 20:24:23 GMT -5
newey,
I never paid too much attention to that diagram, way back then, 'cause I don't do humbuckers, and rarely do crippled guitars (those with less than 3 pups). So I revisited it, and lo and behold, ChrisK does a less-than-admirable job of describing the resulting combo for pos. 3.... and of course, you just copied him.
In point of fact, the "humbucker" is made up of two very widely spaced coils, and they're wired together in "local" parallel. That Hb is in "global" series with the remaining coil, which just happens to be physically located in the very near vicinity of one of the first two coils. I'd call it "(Nsouth + B) * Nnorth". Reverse the designators as desired, of course.
I believe you're correct, the resultant tone should be about the same as what toid requested. In either case, we have two coils in parallel, which gives us half the inductance of a single coil; then that's hooked in series with a single coil, for a resulting 1.5x Henries (where x = 1 coil's worth of inductance). The only possible fly in the ointment might be that our widely-spaced Hb could have a slightly more difficult time of bucking any hum.
HTH
sumgai
|
|
toidaudio
Rookie Solder Flinger
rock and roll preacher
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
|
Post by toidaudio on Apr 26, 2010 10:49:47 GMT -5
WOW, sumgai... = would be impressed with all that if i knew what the @#&$ it meant... no i'm not THAT
|
|
toidaudio
Rookie Solder Flinger
rock and roll preacher
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
|
Post by toidaudio on Apr 26, 2010 10:52:06 GMT -5
I meant to say im not that unlearned... yes i'm afraid i am. i shall pursue the superswitch by the prescribed diagram. thank you.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 26, 2010 13:00:59 GMT -5
Rev. Chris. First: Hi, and to the NutzHouse! As to what that all means, well, first things first - you don't need a superswitch to get the combinations you've listed. newey's linked post shows a very standard 3-terminal/5-way switch, found on all but the highest end Stratocasters (and copies thereof). It's most likely you already have one of these, or if not, they're dirt cheap. Now if you do want exactly what you asked for, the physical unit known as "the humbucker" in series with the separate single-coil pup, then that will require the purchase of a superswitch, to be sure. But I ask you, is that what you really need, versus what you think you want? But your confusion is understandable, so don't worry. Below I've laid out a short lesson, wherein we'll visit many of the basics in one or two sentences each: 1) Components can be hooked together in only two basic ways - series or parallel. By common acceptance, we guitarists use the asterisk (*) to denote a series connection, and a plus sign (+) to denote a parallel connection. 2) All combinations are built around these two basic concepts, no matter how complicated they get. When we do "up the ante" (get more complicated), we use parenthesis to separate things, making the whole formula easier to read. 3) Humbuckers (Hb for short) have two coils (usually!), so we often designate one of them to be the North coil, and the other one becomes the South coil. 4) Coils of wire have a property called inductance. That word comes from the magnet inducing a current within the coil of wire when the magnetic field is disturbed in some fashion (like a metallic string vibrating within said field). 5) Inductance is measured in units known as Henries (or a single Henry). 6) When coils are combined, the property called inductance is affected. The total inductance for all the coils is either added or subtracted, according to known principles. 7) In short, when you put coils in parallel, the inductance is decreased, and when you put coils in series, the inductance is increased. 8) Taking the example above, let's assume that each coil within the Hb has the same inductance as the single coil pup. We can then say that when two coils are in parallel, the resulting total inductance for that pair is one-half of that found for either individual coil. 9) Continuing that thought, two coils in series will be double the inductance. Are you still with me so far? Good! So finally, we have: 10) If I put two coils in parallel, that knocks down the inductance to one-half, and if I put that in series with the single coil, I now have 1 + ½, don't I? And that's what I mean by 1.5 Henries. 11) Bear in mind that nearly all pickups have differing inductance values. They may range from 1 or 2, up to 7 or 8, depending on many factors. Why all of this mumbo-jumbo about inductance and combinations and such? 12) Because inductance affects your tone, that's why! More inductance tends to bring about less trebles and a more pronounced mid-range. Too much inductance is usually referred to as "muddy sounding". In other words, there is a finite limit to how much inductance one should allow into one's circuit, in order to achieve the desired tone. And that's the bottom line here. You don't need to know it intimately, but you do need to recall that anytime you're not sure, the proper place to get your questions answered is right here in The NutzHouse! ;D HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 26, 2010 17:45:19 GMT -5
From what I can tell, the OP is asking for Neck in system parallel with the Bridge in its normal local series mode, which looks like this:
N + (BN*BS)
To follow with SG's assumption (for illustration purposes only) that all three coils have the same inductance, we'll find that the overall total from this combination will come out to 2/3 that of any one coil.
I'd expect this to be a quite noticeable difference in treble output from the 3/2 inductance that the above scheme gives. Not saying that's a bad thing. In fact, when I switch to a combination including an HB, I kind of expect it to get darker and more "middy". This scheme will probably give a much more satisfying contrast to the 2 postion (which gives 1/2 inductance).
|
|
toidaudio
Rookie Solder Flinger
rock and roll preacher
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
|
Post by toidaudio on Apr 27, 2010 20:14:59 GMT -5
OK... so is the general accepted opinion of the observation noted above to be judged, "good" or "bad"?
the bottom line for me: I love to build. I love to play. I love to tinker. I build my own guitars. I enjoy tinkering (as a NON-obsessive, most shallow level of geekishness - type of pursuit) with components to find "my tone". I want the most optimized options from my set-up on this new guitar. I can see I have once again bitten off more than I can chew... as I'm positive sumgai would attest. I believe I will utilize a standard 3-way blade, and a mini toggle to split the coils on the bridge pickup when/if I want bridge single coil tones. that seems like the option that would illicit the fewest techno-gibbery outbursts, whether they be rational and justified or not. viable option, guys?
|
|
|
Post by newey on Apr 27, 2010 20:42:01 GMT -5
Toid- If you want to go with just a 3-way for coil splitting, that's fine. But all the techno-gibbery aside, I think the position 3 combo given by Deaf Eddie's diagram is probably all good, and perhaps indistinguishable from what you wanted to begin with. If your inclined, I'd say give that scheme a go, it's not terribly technical to wire. And, I am personally wanting someone to try this mod and report the results!
|
|
toidaudio
Rookie Solder Flinger
rock and roll preacher
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
|
Post by toidaudio on Apr 29, 2010 18:29:07 GMT -5
I am nothing if not willing to try... The great thing about our "hobby", is it is not likely to explode nor otherwise inflict damage to us when we don't get it on the first try.
Ever what happened to the potential early ghosebusters in the development phase of the proton pack?
Lutherie has better prospects.
Rev
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 29, 2010 19:14:01 GMT -5
( EDIT: post redacted due to redundancy.) ash, Yer kee-rect, I reversed the two topologies inadvertantly. Mr. Murphy is due for a swift kick in the nonnies! sumgai
|
|
|
Post by newey on Apr 29, 2010 21:03:47 GMT -5
True, the only damage is that inflicted upon the audience. ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 29, 2010 21:23:25 GMT -5
SG - I could have sworn that inductance adds like resistance.
Two coils in series = 1 + 1 = 2 Both of these parallel to the other coil = 1 / (1 + 1/2) = 1 / (3/2) = ...
On the other hand, if we've got 2 coils in parallel, and then in series with the other, you get 1.5.
Was it a typo? You meant to say series when you meant parallel? Am I missing something?
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Apr 30, 2010 0:52:17 GMT -5
ash, For 3 coils available, each having the same inductance (and we'll call it 1 Henry, for ease of calculation): Any two coils in series is calculated thusly: 1 / (1/Coil 1 + 1/Coil 2) which can be shortcutted to 1/2Coil eitherUsing our example figure of 1 Henry per coil, this means that any two coils in series will yield 0.5 Henry total inductance for that pair. Now, putting that pair in parallel with the remaining coil, we have: 1 + 0.5 = ...... (Hint: not 2/3 rds) Regardless of where the coils are arranged along the string, this is the amount of inductance that will have an effect on the total outgoing signal. Like newey, I doubt that placement along the string of the series pair will have a significant effect on the tone, but I could be wrong about that. ~!~!~!~!~!~!~ Note to JohnH: I could be wrong, but it looks to me like the Frequency Calculator doesn't give us the option of joining pickups in combinations like that above. Is it possible to update the sheet's underlying formulae to include this kind of data? HTH sumgai I agree with everything that you say, provided you swap 'series' with 'parallel'! On the spreadsheet - I only put one pickup numericaly into the model, but, in addition to some buttons that call up values for some typical generic types, you are at liberty to put in specific values of pickup resistance and inductance, and also winding capacitance, and so it can represent the net result of most sensible series and parallel combinations. For anything more subtle, I'd suggest using a modelling program such as 5Spice, which is free and easy to use. John
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 30, 2010 1:16:38 GMT -5
And so sumgai is correct (and I never said he wasn't) in the analysis of the schematic being discussed here, where we've got two parallel coils in series with one other.
The original request (as I read it) was for two coils in series and that structure in parallel with one other. Pretty sure I'm right about that.
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on May 1, 2010 1:18:23 GMT -5
ash, .......
position - source 1) neck 2) neck - bridge(single coil tapped) 3) neck and bridge(humbucker mode) 4) bridge(single coil tapped) 5) bridge(humbucker mode) Since no mention of series is made anywhere in that chart, I assumed all combinations were in parallel. I also assumed the humbucker would be standard, which is usually series - ain't it? If so, then we're in agreement on that part. And if so, and if my corrected analysis hold up to your (and John's) inspection, then 2 * 1 Henry = 2 Henries, and that value in parallel with 1 Henry (from the remaining single pup) does indeed yield 2/3 Henry, total for the combination. As it turns out, I simply (and simple-mindedly) mis-matched what I was reading with what I was assuming, and got all crossed up. I hate it when that happens! Sigh. ~!~!~!~!~!~!~ Rev. Chris, What all this blather means is that when it comes to tone, your combo in position 3, regardless of which coils are located where, will tend to be a bit brighter than just the one single coil. This is because there is less inductance to rob the highs from the signal. Depending on what you like for tone, this could be a good thing, or........ Just so you know what to expect, that's all. sumgai
|
|