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Post by 4real on Dec 17, 2010 22:41:01 GMT -5
Finally, I did what I always should have...taken my strat back virtually to scratch and adapted a few 'scheme's to my liking...
Yesterday I wired up the sustainer...it took hours...then realized that it really compromised this guitars potential and I already have a sustainer guitar in my tele and I really don't use it that much!
So, hard to back down from all those "great plans"...this thing even has a battery (perhaps a future preamp then) and a piezo...but...alas...
Ok...so...as recommended over and over...gone for the Mike Richardson scheme...in particular I liked the N & B settings in the middle position like a tele over the M alone that really does nothing for me.
This also has a mode switch I installed into the volume push pull...this gives a series mode plus all three in parallel...nice...
So...10 distinct and useful sounds with the selector and 'mode' switch...
I added to this a phase switch to the neck pickup on the lower 'master tone' control...seven out of the ten selections in either mode involve the neck with other pickups...making 17 sounds...
Then I added my own "twist"...this HSS strat has a SD JB HB in it that splits really well and I really missed the 'quack' available from the single coil combinations....so...
I put in a kind of 'spin-a-split' control...so a variable control between the split sound and the single coil in the middle control...there are 7 positions where this has an effect...so now we are up to...25...but wait, 3 are also effected by the phase switch being in or out...now I am losing count...and of course it is variable...
But wait there is more...The push pull on the HB control selects if it is cutting the inner or the outer of the HB coil...this makes a big difference to the HB sound in split mode and any 'quacky' combination...that's a further 7...umm...32...plus some extra pahse flavours...
Of course with this control on the HB you have a range or sounds available from the HB not just the split 1 or 2 or full HB selections...
Regardless of the count...there are a lot of sounds in there and all of them have some use and are logically set out on the selector...plus...the guitar looks basically stock and the most useful selections are with everything down.
It all works perfectly...showing the benefits of using a diagram and testing the whole thing on a cardboard template outside the guitar before installing...there was just the usual 'tone control' that turned the wrong way, but nothing major or that couldn't be worked out (although the diagram I was using for the MR (the original) kind of has the mode switch drawn upside down so I needed to change that and I got the phase wrong also, so that too...the usual things!)
I didn't have all the components that I would have liked, especially cap values and so am looking to tweak it more and there are some more variations that I might do...
The variable split could do with some work as I think there are even more flavours in there and it goes from split to full very quickly (audio 500K p-p pot)...the tiny cap in the tone control is extreme and sounds like a wha...but again, a little excessive...I did a bit of a treble bleed cap which helps and doesn't sound bad...might work better with the resistor in there too perhaps.
I have a thing for quiet guitars and in this regard it is a winner...fully shielded it also features stacked fender noiseless singles and the HB...but even the 'split modes' are exceptionally hiss and noise free
The mode switch is very cool as you can jump between settings with a single switch from lighter parallel sounds to darker louder series sounds with one switch...very cool!
When things are a bit more 'settled' I'll attempt a proper diagram and pics of the work...maybe some sound clips...
...
Thanks GN2 guys for all the assistance and pointing me towards this fantastic basic scheme and providing most of the tools required to make it my own for this guitar...woohoo...a new guitar for christmas and one less hanging around in the closet waiting to be 'fixed up' to be played...this could become my new #1!~
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Post by newey on Dec 17, 2010 23:32:49 GMT -5
4real-
It sounds very cool, we're awaiting pix and perhaps sound clips eagerly!
As it has been fully vetted and ascertained as working, please post a schematic and/or diagram in the "Truly Nutzoid Schemes" sub-board, as this one surely qualifies. Sort of an MRN.
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Post by 4real on Dec 18, 2010 2:00:07 GMT -5
That sounds cool...it is a variation on the MR scheme...but adds this 'twist' which is ideal for HSS guitars... As to the guitar, I'll do a thing in the gallery some time... It's a "contemporary strat" in mahogany with a small back cavity...the hardware has all been upgraded and some 'hot rod' touches like everything being held down with black allen bolts and the HB picup ring being upholstered in emu leather...hmm...soft... It also something of a Jeff Beck tribute guitar...though I doubt he'd play something like this. A JB HB in the bridge and a pair of JB Fender noiseless hot stacks in the middle and neck. The trem features the original bridge but set floating like JB does, quite high...but is pretty stiff and loaded with a trem setter to keep things stable...roller trees and locking tuners... ... I wired the thing on cardboard so as the guitar could be played and tested... Low end squiers give 'squiers' a bad name...you can see this has a conductive paint cavity and the original "ducan designed' pickups weren't bad...I got it new at half price...there is a darker stripe of mahogany across the body...LOL...I actually like that...$300 off, even better! You can see there is little evidence of the amount of options in the sparse layout...volume/mode : HB split/select : Tone/neck phase The headstock is interesting on this guitar...as it was mentioned elsewhere...the head face has a matching stain to the body... But I will get around to drawing it up and over time tinker with the values of things like caps to get a better function if I can... It's certainly a winner as far as ease of use and functionality...bit tricky with the wiring...however with the proper approach (cardboard, schematics, etc) it worked before installation...unlike the last few attempts that have had me put the thing away again for months...
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Post by 4real on Dec 18, 2010 19:20:24 GMT -5
NEEDS CHECKING I actually used the below... Adding a neck phase on the Master tone and the "HB Spin-Select" to the bridge HB as modules
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Post by 4real on Dec 18, 2010 21:27:51 GMT -5
THE SOUNDSParallel MODEN N+M (p) N+B (p) (123) B+M (123) B (123) Series ModeN*M*B (p) (123) N*M (P) N*B (p) (123) B*M (123) B+M+N (p) (123) All very intuitive. The big difference in the "parallel mode" between the standard strat and the MR scheme is the middle only is replaced by the very nice and more useful N+B...like a tele's middle position I see it as having ten basic unique selections which can be 'spiced' to taste...not sure how one would really 'count' them' though... With the 'spin-select' control you have 3 flavours (123) of the HB on an HSS strat and this affects any position where the Bridge pickup is involved. So...if looking at the "counting", this converts the bridge HB into three basic and quite different sounds...so that adds 12...making 22... With the neck phase, this affects any selection that involves the neck Pup and any other...this adds another 6...so 28 selections perhaps...though many of these 'phase' sounds are kind of specialty effect The Tone and Volume are master controls. Parallel MODESo...like the standard strat except the N+B middle selection...however the HB spin select really alters the "quack" factor as well as the tone and general "power" of the bridge pup. This control gives you a sharp bridge most coil of the sweeter inner coil and the quack is similarly affected...the full HB still quacks but far more midrange and body. Series MODEThese are more powerful darker sounds generally...except the all three parallel position...this is a great light rhythm tone with lots of variation with the HB control and phase options. The B*M and B*N are kind of similar...but varies with the HB control...a big warm HB tone The N*M a kind of Neck HB sound, not as powerful as it doesn't involve the bridge HB The N*M*B is a surprise...a big warm Jazz like tone, great for Wes like octaves...the phase control lightens things up without it being "phasey" as you might expect. The HB control will lighten things up in all but the M*N. ... All pickups are noiseless HB's in this guitar...but in a full split there is a slight SC 'hiss'...very little and avoidable if the splits are not used. Neck PhaseOther phase sounds...generally that thin 'funky sounds" or for those Page/May layering kinds of sounds. However, not all are that thinned out...the N(p)*B for instance is just a lighter more fender-y sound. With a generally "hot" guitar...the phase switch is useful for simulating a 'cheap' guitar LOL but also makes a great 'slide' sound...bit drobo-ish HB Spin-selectThis is a fantastic control...could still do with some tweaking...but at least it provides HB or single coil at the extremes of the dial. Down It selects the inner coil for a sweeter single coil sound and fuller "quack"...pull the control makes things lighter...alone this is a very bright thin sound. One could consider this control to be a "midrange" control with a "bright" switch for the bridge pickup separate from other pickup controls...so great variety in mixing. The SD JB splits very well and a very convincing single coil sound and volume match for the other Single coils...using the 'spin' function allows you to beef up the single coil sound and avoid any noise from the split...there is plenty of "quack" in all combined positions. TWEAKING REQUIRED STILLAll pots in this guitar are 500K Audio taper...this might not be ideal. They are fine with these all HB pickups and power...but the "HB Spin-Select" control is a bit too quick to fade from single to full HB...I suspect there are far more graduations or even a different way of setting things up to reveal more sound variations. Perhaps a lower value pot or something else might help with this... I also read somewhere about a control that adds a cap between the series connections on the third leg of the pot giving a wider range of sounds from the full HB to the split...seems interesting to try some time...anyone know about this kind of thing? I didn't have a decent tone cap about, I put in a tiny one that gives an extreme "wha" kind of thing at the very end of the tone control range...I am sure it could be more useful with a better value...anyone have some suggestions for a good value for this guitar? The tiny cap only in the 'treble bleed' (not in the diagram) helped keep things bright when turned down...might even be good enough as is...but perhaps it could be tweaked with a parallel resistor too. Because originally I got too "ambitious" and it still has a sustainer driver in it and neck piezo...I doubt these will ever get a look in...it does have a clever battery compartment behind the trem block...so perhaps I might preamp the thing...since there is power! ... Otherwise...as a basic scheme...it's fantastic...the neck and bridge selection is so useful in comparison to the middle alone and such a good sound. The Series mode is a bonus getting darker sounds, the "jazz" setting is wonderful for that thing, especially with a guitar like this that is so percussive and 'stratty' otherwise...such a great contrast...like a big old archtop. As it is an all three in series selection, it can be radically altered with the splits and the phase. All positions are distinct and useful and logically set out...one exception is perhaps the all 3 parallel thing...great sound with lots of variations with this set up...but "light" and lower in volume. However, it can be good to use the mode switch to go quickly from this say as a rhythm sound to the full HB by simply knocking it back into parallel mode from it! The whole mod is 'invisible' and clean on the outside other than the push pulls...a better bridge pickup control separate from other settings for mixing...a more versatile B+N sound as standard. Overall, this guitar is all stratocaster despite it's modern leanings and HSS set up. Very quacky and percussive, sweet sounding compared to a tele and has the bridge HB thing (still sounds like a strat clean) which gives a warm HB sound, a sweet single coil sound, a super bright spiky bridge Pup or any graduation between...controls the midrange or "body" of the pickup as well as allowing for the HB to be matched in volume or as a bit of a boost. ... The pickups btw are the older Noiseless Fender Jeff Beck models from his signature strat...a little hotter than average and dead quiet but still very strat like in sound...A good match with the SD JB which is reasonably powerful but still has a lot of harmonics and not as thick as many high powered Hb pups...the split sound is great, I tried parallel but the splits are much better and with this control more versatile. I like the way that the 'zebra' HB matches the SC's as if it were three SC's +1 back one...LOL...they look a bit "white" in the pic but are in fact a nice cream and all match...fashion is so important! I like 'tele' style knobs...these are the originals and "push on" so got to watch the things don't pop off with the push pulls...you could better use the grub screw versions perhaps...with push pulls, they are easier to grab than a standard fender dial. They don't allow you to 'dial in sounds' which can be a pain in a way...but it is all very intuitive and easy to grab and swell...and I like a bit of chrome! I really like the strats control layout and the close master volume. I know many complain that they hit the thing, but I don't seem to have that problem. I guess my hand doesn't 'flail' about so much...but also, with these knobs and the slight added neck tilt and high bridge. When I say "high"...the actual strings are sitting 18mm from the face of the guitar...so the actual strings are almost level with the top of the volume knob...so plenty out of the way. There is a real "trick" to setting up a strats trem in this way...this guitar I installed a tremsetter...it does work (especially for those country and blues oblique bends) but I'm not totally convinced. The whole trem is kind of stiff but then perhaps I have been 'spoiled' by the smooth floating kahler things...but there is something unique and special about the strat's bridge set up ... On the whole squier 'issue'...not all squiers are 'equal' clearly...and the models change often, this one is no longer available. Standard it came with decent "duncan designed" HB pickup and sounded decent and the control cavity is well shielded with paint and cover foil covered. The nut is well cut and seems perhaps to be lubed...at least there is no sticking or need to replace. Machine heads were decent enough...I replaced them with locking shallers...the 2 point bridge is the original squier. Perhaps it might not be worth doing expensive mods like pickups with a more average 'budget' squier...this really is solid mahogany (albeit in 6 seamless 'strips') but not 'top grade' (splintery when routed)...I can't vouch for the cheaper standard squiers. However, if you like the feel of a guitar, a trick wiring like this is cheap enough and will add a lot to it...not sure if it would be worth spending this much on high end pickups on a completely budget guitar. Things can get expensive in a hurry with these kinds of projects...I got the guitar new, but half price at about $300...the pickups were on auction and the SD HB secondhand, far cheaper than new and allowed me to mix and match...but still...not cheap. The locking tuners similar...over $100 right there. The added parts then outstrip the cost of the entire guitar! However, the pickups, tuners and set up are exactly the same as the highest end fender (as is my tele) and plays as well...this trick wiring is more versatile and invisible than the new S-1 switching scheme with far more sounds available...so say the whole thing cost $600...for a similar quality, you have a guitar that plays like one that costs $1400+ for the most basic fender here in the shops...something like $5K for a real JB signature...so the maths works out well and the result unique. ... I'm sure this will be my #1 guitar even with my new LP with trick wiring and trem or my fabulous sustainer tele...all three have their own vibe and cover most of the bases...but this guitar feels so comfortable to play, versatile in sound and unique in look while being familiar...still, I'm sure I will come up with a few more 'projects' in time. Maybe a pedal board next...hmmm
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Post by sumgai on Dec 19, 2010 0:33:34 GMT -5
Pete,
You do recall, don't you, that MR first set down his eponymous work as N+B. It was only after a spate of mail that he relented and re-published his diagram with what most folks wanted, M in the 3rd posiiton.
I don't know if he comes around anymore (he last logged in on July 1 of this year, but he could be just lurking.....), but I'm sure he'd approve of your mods - I know I do! ;D
sumgai
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Post by 4real on Dec 19, 2010 1:49:37 GMT -5
No SG...didn't know who MR was and before my time...but I think he was right on the money on the N+B option...be interesting to read that discussion...was that on the old forum perhaps? The diagram worked perfectly and I found it easier to understand than the newer one "MR with phase" to follow...not sure about my drawing...basically the super-switch is correct and you can add modules to taste as I think MR intended in his sketch. Here's the link to Chris K's "MR with phase" version... guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3140Not sure the reason why people would want the middle only as a selection...perhaps for tradition. Especially on an HSS strat I find the combination of the bridge HB and the neck SC to be a real winner (it is similar to my HB tele and skinny tele neck pup)...combining dissimilar pickups is good and you get a combined sound with a different kind of strat flavour..."not quite quack". Plus with this "HB spin-selector" and neck phase, it has a heap of variations in both series and parallel. I've generally favoured the N+B setting on all my guitars...get a nice round neck tone plus the bridge pups harmonics. I've often heard that people don't like the "all 3" sounds but I like it in parallel and that "jazz box" sound in series is great. Some of the series sounds do sound a bit bass heavy for my taste, maybe there is a tweak for that...I noticed that CK added some caps to his phase switches...that might tone the effect down a little...perhaps something similar could be done with the mode switch to tame the bass in the series settings. If MR is lurking...a big thank you...this is a very clever scheme, logical, great selections and out does the fender S-1 thing with less switching power...well done! ... The Spin-Select control I think has a lot more potential...thought I ought to get things going in the most basic form and tweak it. Some further development...well...I have been interested in this kind of thing perhaps... I found this here... guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=701which linked to this here... www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54434the idea is to separate the series connected wires and add a tiny cap...getting a result with the pot like this... You still get the full HB or full split...my version also allows for which one is split...but also adds in an interesting cap/resistor divider filter...between the extremes you get this kind of effect... Cenulab describes it thus... "My favorite spot is at about halfway between full HB and full split; from my PG+ bridge (Strat) I get a very warm, cutting-but-not-harsh tone, maybe p-90-ish"...and... Couldn't find the actual diagram...but was described thus... "I see the red and white (coil junction) wires are on two separate lugs instead of together on the middle lug, plus a .001 mf cap across the two non-ground lugs. "so mashing a bunch of ideas together might create something cool and almost 'new'... I also saw this on testing split pots... www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1683174#post1683174He seems to think a 100K possibly linear pot might be more effective...mine are 500K but being a push-pull...hmmm...I do have a spare 250K here or perhaps a resistor across it would help...where's john when you need him! Someone else on that thread said... "I ended up using a 500k pot with a 470k resistor across the outer terminals. Very smooth and I can see the resistance go up or down as I rotate the pot."...so it might be as easy as that to "fix it and get more usable travel from the pot that's in there. I think there is a version of the spin a split that also ranges through to a traditional tone control...but I suspect that would affect the whole guitar if selected....with this "control" it only affects the bridge so gives some nice mixing options and control over the bridge pups sound and balance...splitting also really clears up the series sounds effectively... So...all works and happy...but I think there is room for a lot more tweaking...for an HSS strat that is a bit of a compromise...it really can tone down the bridge Hb and get it back into standard SC strat sounds and balance with more choice and better than a bridge tone control on such guitars where you already have a good midrange from the HB and actually want more treble and quack like a real strat. Once the tweaking is done and components sorted and diagram checked or redrawn...I'll clean up a drawing and set it out perhaps for a nutzoid scheme
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Post by sumgai on Dec 20, 2010 4:04:57 GMT -5
No SG...didn't know who MR was and before my time...but I think he was right on the money on the N+B option...be interesting to read that discussion...was that on the old forum perhaps? Bingo. Sadly, the very reason this Forum exists is because the Forum on the original G-Nuts site went south, allegedly due to crackers who finally got John Atchley's goat. There is a page or two of John A. expounding on Mike's diagrams and thoughts, but for the most part, we've hashed/re-hashed it all out here on this Forum, and with Mike himself participating, just to keep us all on our toes. That's all history now, and the bottom line is, you're happy with what you've done, and that's all anyone can ask for, yes? ;D sumgai
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Post by 4real on Dec 22, 2010 18:39:13 GMT -5
Absolutely...very happy with the concept...but there will be inevitable tinkering I'm sure...the ideas here and the general MR thing as a template could generate all kinds of idea...I'd really like to explore that spin-select idea and get more out of it...
Tone cap for 500K pots on an HSS strat...any preferences in value and or type?
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Post by 4real on Jan 29, 2011 5:51:49 GMT -5
So...I finally got around to a bit of tinkering with the Spin-Select with some unusual and interesting results... I found a linear 100K pot...so I could test that out and this gave a good range of sounds...however, it didn't suit a transplant into the Push Pull pot (I tried)...and really, finding a 100K linear push pull pot is going to be tricky regardless. So...I happened to have a nice Alpha 250K...this seems to work well with far more range. Might be better if it were linear however, it works well as it is. With the 500K you got an immediate jump to full HB at about 2-3...with this the full HB is pretty much at the far end and there is lots of variation inbetween. As a 250K pot is going to be easy to find, I'd be recommending this as a standard fore this control. But wait...THERE IS MORE~!!! Since I had the thing apart, I tried a few of these ideas I have had to develop the idea more and it seems to have paid off. I tried a lot of variations, some are interesting...but the one that sounded 'best' to me and gave even more sounds, (I think...because I stupidly put things back together before tracing the wires, doh!) is something like this... (Or the cap wire may go to the middle lug ) I added a tiny .001 cap into the spare side of the switch. Now you get two distinct Single coil sounds (the two splits) and two HB sounds...plus a different range of variations...the new sounds being very interesting. In the normal position the guitar is pretty much as it was before, you have the split to the sweeter inner coil on zero, turn towards ten to get a full HB which comes in around 8 or 9 on the dial with the 250K pot. In the pulled up position, you get the split to the brighter outer bridge most coil, as you turn towards ten you get an interesting 'swell' in tone and at the far end you get a different HB sound, something more akin to a P-90 in a way. Now...if someone would like to explain what is going on there and why even at "full HB" it is a different sound...I'd be grateful and we might be onto something great. As it stands, it is a nice effect and the control getting ever more versatile as I thought it might. I've got the ability to play with the fade between full split and HB and two types of fade and a new HB sound that really does sound quite good.... ... On the guitar itself...I found the problem with the volume control, not the pot but adding a small cap as a treble bleed without a resistor seemed to radically change things...or was wired wrong. The volume control with it off works better, but you really do notice the cable dulling the sound. Removing also brought the SC pups into line with more volume for some reason. I will need to tinker with thing and possibly go active to bring back the zing that it used to have and I suspect this would also benefit the SS control and other features on the guitar. I tested the guitar through a normal cable (10foot) and a 1 foot cable and the difference was stunning! The tone control seems still to be a bit extreme, perhaps a different cap[ might help things. Have been thinking of perhaps a GFS preamp to replace the tone control (an active preamp and active tone)...or have read JohnH's preamp thread and somthing like that looks pretty cool...getting parts out here might be a PIA. I probably have a small op-amp buffer here though, so might try something like that at some point. ... Anyway...the Spin Select is coming alonjg and I think that anyone interested in testing the thing out with a 250K pot would be on the right track and the added cap thing produces more sounds out of one HB...which can't be a bad thing!
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Post by 4real on Jan 29, 2011 18:45:38 GMT -5
Tinkering again with it this morning...I discovered that the treble bleed cap was causing havoc with the volume pot taper, removing it has the preferable reverse effect (good for volume swells) and seemed to improve the SC balance, go figure...
The tone pot...well, there is still an extreme wah between 1 and 2 on the dial...so not a lot of use there.
The "Spin Select" version 2 is as shown above in the diagram but the cap is marked "103" (so tiny it is hard to see). The affect on the HB at 10 when selected is a really nice bright sound...almost as loud than the full Hb when the switch is down, but without the midrange honk of an HB...nice...
The result then so far is that with a 250K pot you get a fair range of sounds with the 'sweeter' inner split and full HB at the extremes of travel when push pull down...the 'edgier' treble-y bridge coil split when up and a different range to a kind of 'parallel' sound perhaps to a different HB sound. The push pull allows you to switch quickly between sounds on the fly...
I'm sure there are a lot of different combinations and sounds you could get from this control...different caps or possibly even inductors perhaps...and I imagine you might want to tweak to taste for different pickups and options...go nutz!
So, been a successful control...
I'm still not entirely happy with a few things with the guitar. Better control, perhaps something more versatile in the tone control and maybe a better volume control.
Can't quite decide to go to just better quality pots and caps...or go active. I've tended to avoid the former but the guitar does have a battery in it from the abandoned piezo and sustainer systems devised originally.
I have been considering some commercial units such as the GFS "SRV exciter" or their neovin pre's that seem to replace the tone control.
However, I'd lose the phase switch thing...not sure if that is such a loss as it is a more of a novelty in many respects though on some settings it is pretty cool...and I could tinker with some of those 'half phase' ideas perhaps.
Anyone have experience with these kinds of active systems?
I'm suspecting that I might find that I'd like it and it might work well in my LP to give it some sparkle.
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Post by 4real on Jan 30, 2011 23:03:17 GMT -5
Ok...while the stuff is out and there's a mess of stuff on the table...a little more tinkering and some new and good results...interesting, but I am not entirely sure what's going on here, so if an 'expert' would like to have a bit of a go... Anyway... ... Pot Taper and Treble Bleed Problems.I was getting all my volume after abut 2-3 on the dial...hmmm...not useful. I had a 001uF cap in there (500K pot) as a treble bleed on it's own. Removing it, improved the pot taper significantly...almost reversing the effect in fact, so all the volume is at the high end of the dial. This is preferable for volume swells...perhaps a better quality pot is in order. However, I did some tests with various caps and such and all 'muffled' the tone to some extent when connected even on full volume. It also seemed to play a bit of havoc with the MR scheme Volume pot that uses the other 'side' in it's series mode I believe....hmmm...it is confusing. So...treble bleed out... .... Tone Pot FixedI'd had problems with this tone control...largely due to using far too small a cap it would seem. Located a more suitable 22...I replaced the pot as the other one would often pull out the whole shaft when I took the pot off...hmm...unfortunately, the new one did too, and sounds a bit 'scratchy...like the volume pot, perhaps a replacement is in order...but it does work now as a sensible tone control! ... 4real Spin Select Version 3Ok...well the results of Version 2 were interesting adding a different flavour of full HB and range when pulled to bridge most split. I noticed however that the 'sweeter' inner split had suffered as a result. The difference is the resistor in the pot between the two wires it would seem...sounded louder and better with the two hard wired together. So, by re-arranging things, I got the cap on the up split and the two connected as before on the down 'inner' split. I tired a range of caps from treble bleed types to tone cap values...the one marked 103 (.01uF ?) was still the best, so lucked out there perhaps. All had some effect though, I liked the sound of this one. ... Half Phase "Discoveries"The phase switch works but is too extreme in most settings. I tried the "half phase" thing wired pretty much as so... I again tried a few cap values, the best came from the same kind (103) that I used in the spin select and think is .01uF as specified by Ozboomer in the module section on this mod. The result is impressive, less extreme volume loss. The affect is vastly different between settings in the MR scheme. Some are a mild different flavour, others are far more 'phase-y'...typically it adds a bit of "air" to some of these sounds and is good with the series sounds which can be a bit bass-y and also drops the volume a little to be more consistent with the rest of the guitar. The Discovery...When wired, the phase switch alters the sound of the combined phase settings as one would expect...but in addition...it alters the sound of the neck pickup alone!!! The sound is a subtle difference but noticeable...more "air" or brightness to it, almost a bit of 'quack' perhaps...so with this mod it seems, you get not only a "better", or more usable phase effect, but a slightly different neck pickup sound that is quite nice and 'light' compared to the more mellow neck pup sound with it off. I suspect it is working a bit like some kind of treble bleed circuit or something...somewhat surprised...but a pleasant addition regardless. The interaction is a bit different between series and parallel on the MR with the phase switch configured this way. The NxM is still pretty 'thin' even though the N+M is quite a warm scooped tone for a phase switch. ... Ok...probably all the tinkering for a bit, guitar back together and time to play it for a while and see what else needs improving. Not given up on the idea of adding perhaps some active preamp at the end of it, but with the tone control working, volume control acceptable and the new phase switch working fairly well now...a little less imperative to go that route. Many of the commercial options would see the master tone replaced with some kind of active control and the loss of the phase switch option. So, would want to be sure if going that route. I'd also be concerned if the guitar always required batteries (no passive option, just in case) and the possibility that such circuitry would add noise to what is a remarkably quiet guitar. It may be the best to add something like john's suggested Jfet buffers (tillman, etc) and replace the tone and volume pots with higher grade components...perhaps a switch on the back to turn it off/bypass the battery. I have a habit of always having the guitar plugged in and having to remove the cable while still having the amp on is asking for some unwanted sound effects...or a shorten battery life.
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Post by newey on Jan 30, 2011 23:32:55 GMT -5
4real-
No surprise there. With the phase switch "on" and neck pickup alone, the phase swap doesn't matter- it can't be "OOP with itself". But in this case, it is nonetheless connected in series with the cap, and so sounds different than when the cap is out of circuit.
Mind you, I won't begin to pretend to understand the theory here. Suffice it to say that the pickup coil has a certain inductance ("L", measured in "henries"). Capacitance and inductance are related, and adding the cap into the circuit changes the overall inductance of the circuit as a whole (I think).
ChrisK's post on "pickup coil response tuning" (in the Reference section) is now largely useless since his graphs and images have disappeared, but this was the essence of the idea- using a cap to "fine-tune" the response of a given coil.
In the OOP combination with another coil, the cap prevents a certain amount of cancellation of frequencies- some of the waves no longer "line up", so to speak, thus giving the so-called "half out of phase" thing. But simply putting a cap in series with the coil will effect the output of that coil, as you have found.
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Post by 4real on Jan 31, 2011 1:14:42 GMT -5
True...so an "easter egg" there...might post an addition to the "half out of phase module thread" as to the results...I'm wondering if putting the cap on the other side of the X wiring in a phase switch makes a difference. CK was probably onto something there as I suspect that small caps like this could significantly help out some overpowered, overwound muddy HB's. You could get really tricky with them in a NUt'z approved scheme using an excessively hot HB toned down to something more useful, yet still having the split work well that is often the case with high powered HBs. My try a variation on this kind of thing with my LP...you could do something with that broadbucker thing as well to tame the bass perhaps. Anyway...half out of phase, plus a second 'neck alone' sound...bonus! Similar things are at work I expect with the HB Spin Select V3...here there is a variable resistor and a cap between the coil connection...as the dial is turned the resistor in series with the cap changes as the resistor in the split control works...seems to be a bit going on there and might be worth modeling (hint) by someone with the know how and equipment...maybe find some new variations. A "Tap Test" on the pickup with Version three shows that~ in the "down" position inner coil split (without caps, etc) with a 250K pot (SD JB HB Pup) you get a fairly smooth transition volume control on the bridge "outer coil" as you move towards 10 and full HB. There is a slight signal from the bridge coil when tapped. In the "up" position outer coil split (with cap, etc) things seem to get more complicated long the travels control. There is quite a bit of the inner coil in the "0" full split position by comparison. It also seems to have a distinctive treble bias as well to it. As you turn the control, this inner coil gets 'fuller/bassier' and louder. Strangely, at around 8 there is a bit of a 'swell', there may be a bit of a tone change in the bridge outer coil, there is a bit of a "swell" in there as 'centulab' who put me onto this idea ... guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=701Doing the test tap thing, I also have fond that in the 'split' mode I can induce some noise/buzz if I stick the guitar right next to a 20" old CRT monitor on the computer. This guitar is exceptionally quiet and you have to be right up to it and in split mode for it to make any "noise" at all. Doing these tests at the computer I noticed that you get the 'buzz' at about the same in full split in both modes. In "normal" mode, the noise goes completely as it moves to full HB and in a pretty smooth transition. In this new "up" mode, with cap/resistor in there, all noise goes at about 8 on the dial...then starts to return. This seems in line with the LOG vol pot taper I suppose, perhaps a linear pot would be the go but hard to find in a push pull. So, perhaps the effect moves towards the full HB at about '8' slightly altered perhaps by the resistors and cap, and hence the 'swell' at that point...then it drops off again and you get some more 'buzz'. I can't from the tap test hear a change in tone from the outer coil...but who knows. The other test is to play a chord and gently turn the dial..you can hear the buzz go to nothing about 8-9 and then return a little after that. Regardless, it provides yet another flavour to an HB and is particularly useful in this kind of HSS strat type situation. The HB will often overpower the SC's and you can loose the quack and strat sound of the bridge pickup with them as well. With this you get many flavours and some noise cancellation and fix the 'overly bright' sound of the bridge-most outer coil sound and get several different types of position 2 quack sounds. Interestingly, recent mods have brought the Fender Noiseless JB's back to life. These are supposed to be hotter than the standard models and they certainly pack a lot of wire in there on the two stacked coils. In a standard fender, they seem to use 250K pots all round with them (recommending 1Meg for the vintage)...it seems to have been that the treble bleed cap thing was robbing them a bit of power, but they seem to have come back to a superb sound...and they are in fact noiseless. The result is that in 'split' mode, the SC pretty much equal the bridge PUP's output and sound really 'stratty'...and the spin select control can be used to add more power and body like a passive midrange control perhaps. Handy and intuitive. The 'half phase thing'...still getting used to it...definitely an improvement and a nice 'bonus' there...there are still some really phase-y sounds, particularly in the series mode...but less so in parallel. As I have a N + or x B setting in the middle position there are many variations possible there using both the split select and phase switch. I'm still "learning" some of these post mod sounds...but the N+M was always the weakest before...now it is almost the same phased or not...though you notice if more above the 12th fret. In series mode however, with NxM and NxB, the 'phase' effect is very dramatic, being typically thin (though much louder than it was) and a marked hollowed out sound on the low strings. It does nice things to the very bass-y NxMxB but almost no effect at all with the N+M+B setting strangely enough. There are a lot of sounds in this guitar as you can imagine, all are fairly strat-y, some are a kind of unique take on that sound palette perhaps...there are enough differences in most settings and all sound good and useful in their own way (I tend to use the default settings with the inner coil split most of the time)...but any guitar that has over 30 different pickup combinations in it is going to have some that are kind of close to one another. One cool thing about this scheme is that you can use the controls to dial in a range of different sounds to the 5 way selector to use on the fly. The phase colours positions 5,4 & 3 while the spin select colours 3,2 & 1.
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Post by genmce on Sept 24, 2011 19:02:10 GMT -5
Hey - what happened to the main diagram? I was just about to start soldering but it is gone? Please repost!
It's back now! Thanks!
I am digging into my 2006 MIM strat. I got my super switch and 3 push pulls.
I experimented on a very cheap Austin Bazaar strat copy. I am ready to step up to this one, I hope. Wish me luck!
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Post by newey on Sept 24, 2011 20:38:51 GMT -5
genmce- Luck! And hello and welcome to G-Nutz2! Please keep us updated with this project, and let us know if there are any questions.
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Post by 4real on Sept 27, 2011 0:23:38 GMT -5
Welcome
This project worked out great for me, I sent you a PM and a diagram of this guitar, but I can see all the images, so I hope that helps.
I and I am sure many others here will be able to provide support in this scheme, hugely based on the MR scheme and in the process of it all.
Slow and steady is best and if at all possible, wire and test it before dropping in to the guitar. With a strat with scratchplate makes this tricky, wire up the scratchplate and test as best you can there are no 'dead settings' and that the controls work in the direction expected...as much as you can. With my strat, there is a rear cavity that made access a bit easier while the guitar was fully playable.
I used 500k pots for the volume and tone and a 250k for the spin-select that seemed to be a decent value. Different pickups will provide different responses, but with the pickups I used, the 500k's seemed best. I turn down the volume a touch to take off the 'zing' generally.
Best of luck...it is a great scheme. The neck/bridge is great with a lot of variety with the spin select which is a really useful control. I confess I don't use the series functions that much for the music I play, but they all sound good and have their uses. There is another thread on this guitar in the gallery section which as I recall has some basic sound demo...
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Post by genmce on Sept 28, 2011 7:46:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome. I will post a pic when I finish, although - it will not be visible from the outside! 4real - when I was looking at the main diagram, I thought why not use that other pole on the hb spin select... and then read the thread further to discover you had found a use for it.
I think the one thing I think i would like, is all push pulls down be stock wiring. Then up to become some of the other more interesting wiring. What interesting wiring? Well the n+B and n*b as well as n+m+B etc...the spin ... Kinda makes my head spin when i think about the possibilities. You have a lot of ground covered here. I also want to stick with stock "look". With 5 way 4 pole and 3 push pulls. I am not afraid of drilling but... why if not necessary. Sometimes - I worry that I won't be able to keep track of all the options. I am not that good a player, but trying to learn. I originally was thinking 1 push pull and 5 way 4 pole - with push pull down - stock n nm m mb b push pull up n+M n+M+B ( not sure of phase or series/parallel combo) N+B (numbucker full) n+b (coil tap) B (humbucker)
The options make my dizzy and since I don't know what they all sound like yet... Last time is pulled the pickguard I forgot to block the tremelo... alas - all my action got messed up. I am waiting on my push pulls and wiring before I setup trem again. Then I need to play with it, and map out what I REALLY like and will use. Then scale back to what I can keep track of. All the best, thanks. I'll post my progress and observations.
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Post by 4real on Sept 28, 2011 10:52:10 GMT -5
This is a complicated wiring so slow and steady as you do it as it will take some time.
There may be other wirings that have the kind of thing you are listing above.
However the Mike Richardson and mine that is a mod of it's main 'feature' over stock is the neck and bridge in the middle position rather than middle alone. 'M' alone is not a selection.
So, with all pots down it is kind of 'stock' otherwise. Use the spin select on 10 for the HB sound and 0 for a more typical single coil sound, pull it for an even brighter bridge pup...kind of a bridge tone control.
With the volume control pulled, you get darker in series sounds except for the '1' position that gives you an airier all three in parallel. The '5' selector gives you a very dark and thick 'jazz' like sound. The phase switch in the tone control is particularly effective in these series positions to take out a bit of this 'darkness'.
There should be no need for any drilling kinds of mods, but watch that superswitch as it is quite thick and may touch the bottom of the cavity and short out against the shielding. Test it will fit in their, mod a little more depth if required, if shielded, cover with some tape so it wont short out.
...
The reality of playing a guitar like this which has about 30 different 'selections' is that one tends to stick to a basic 'sound' for any particular song or style of play, at least for me. You also tend to have your favorite sounds. For me those are the n and n+m which are available on any stock strat, at least for the things I am playing at the moment that needs a full sound. While I was playing with a bass player, I used a tele and would favour the n+b I would think.
A guitar with all these potions hidden in it is useful though to be inspired for ideas and to get a 'new guitar' with some switch flipping. A bit like trying out a new guitar at a store. It would make for a good recording tool for versatility and for keeping your sound fresh while practising. It makes for something that is useful in a lot of different situations. All the selections have their uses though for me the series positions are kind of wasted perhaps, they are good but I just don't play in situations perhaps where those 'gibson=esque' tones are needed generally.
One of the great things about the spin-select thing is that it solves the HB bridge pickup thing on HSS guitars. This guitar with it's old stock pups lost a lot of it's 'stratiness' with pos 2 being zingy like a cheap tele bridge at best and the bridge alone darker and too powerful for the other pups. With the spin select down and near zero you are getting a decent strat sound and balance, not overly bright like many strat 1st positions (for that, pull the knob).
I consider the series modes a bonus really for me, though both 'all three on' has it's uses. The parallel for a nice strumming kind of thing, the series for a kind of Wes like 'jazz box' sound.
No wiring is going to make you a better player of course and this is a complicated scheme.
An intermediary approach could be to simply install the 'spin select' module into the standard setup to 'tame' or get a bit more out of the the bridge pickup as described above, it is an easy mod.
Best of luck regardless, pete
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Post by genmce on Sept 28, 2011 12:04:46 GMT -5
From the main image, the dashed blue lines are going to pot shells? Yes slow and steady, good advice, connect and test... meter (continuity) beep. I have started by connecting the jumpers on the 5 way super switch outside the guitar. (I did not even consider that it might not fit... I'm crossing my fingers on that.) Good advice on the tape to prevent shorting out. Then built the hb spin pot. Those two things looked like the toughest part of this. I may be optimistic on that. Now, I just wait for the other push pulls to arrive. Thanks for the descriptions of the settings. I can't wait to try it. Yeah - I know it won't make me a better player. I may sound better tho. I do alot of recording nonsense - so that will be nice. I even considered putting another humbucker in the neck postion, so I could get that gibsony (two hums) sound. I have seen some SD's for $71. (I have a '75 les paul but it intimidates me. I got it cheap, 20 years ago, I can't bring myself to sell it, tho it could pay for a lot of mods.) Then find the sounds I really like then trim (modify) this to something manageable. Sell a few old guitars and settle on just 1 or a couple. Thanks again.
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Post by 4real on Sept 29, 2011 7:39:39 GMT -5
Yes, the blue dotted lines is to indicate that all the pots and grounds are connected, I generally start with that and then solder all these to a brass washer that is screwed into the cavity of the guitar ("star grounding") and so to the shielding. Don't forget to ground the bridge/strings (usually the trem spring claw) to this also.
Yep, starting with the superswitch is a good plan, worth checking it will fit and that you have the wiring around the right way so the switch works as selected. If it does not fit, it may mean shaving off a tiny bit of the cavity below it, be careful as it is not thick there and some guitars like my squier are thinner than a real fender. Make sure you have no protruding terminals or connections that might move when you put the plate back on, nothing more frustrating with these things to have it all sorted then mysteriously not work when you screw the scratch plate down.
...
I prefer the SC sound myself, depends on the music you play or sound you want. I have several guitars, but played a real Les Paul (now under the bed unplayed for over a decade) for 25 years.
What this wiring scheme does offer though are some passable gibson-ish sounds in the series mode. Postion 2 for instance is NxB so a wide twin coil sound, position 4 is a triple coil HB effectively, but one could use the spin control to get various physical widths to that sensing. Position three is the NxB for another super wide HB sound.
These tend to be bassier and louder than parallel modes, this is where the phase switch on the neck pickup can help a bit in moderating these things...of course, different pickups, different results.
Brian May of course is a player that makes gret use of such series and phase switching I believe...I like a guitar that has it's own familiar flavour but still have it's own voice.
If you dabble in recording, this scheme offers a lot, but try and make everything in their as quiet as possible. All my guitars are dead quiet because of noiseless pickups all round and generally shielded cable as much as possible.
...
There is a lot of history in my old LP, but as they get older (mine is probably about 69 balck custom) their value gets so high you dare not take it out, in fact my insurance wont cover it if it leaves the house...not to mention it weighs like two house bricks.
I started modding things on cheap copies in my teens through to now in various phases and at various times. I like having a few guitars and the process of designing and building things that are unique. However, I really, really can't afford much and if I am going to use it, as long as it is a good guitar to play, there are advantages to a decent cheap guitar that you are not going to be too precious about.
Over the years, I have accumulated quite a few parts (I serius need to get rid of stuff) from these projects and picking up parts here and there. I could likely make several guitars from them alone.
I am working on a new guitar now (usually make one a year) which could cost me almost nothing. The neck is from one of my first project strats, labeled 'legend' you can find them out here in pawn shops all the time (I even have a left hand one LOL) but the necks and fretwork seemed quite impressive.
Be aware that one can get carried away with this wiring thing, mine all tend to have some wiring twist, but a nice playing instrument is the most important thing to create. These days, I try and hide all the mods as much as possible and have the 'go to' sounds as the default settings, everything else is a bonus. Earlier things had switches like a porcupine. Many times a toggle switch is more appropriate than a pull or even a selector. There was an old wiring mod that was done to strats of replacing the 5way with three toggles that was really practical (Knophler used it on his tunnel of love era shecter strat).
There is also something super cool about a single pickup guitar some times, look at someone like EVH or even a Pat Metheny. If you know 'your sound' and how to work with it, there can be plenty of variety, plus if you are into modeling stomp boxes and presets, these can be tailored to make your guitar sound like anything, or close to, with a little programming.
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Post by newey on Sept 29, 2011 8:44:19 GMT -5
genmce has hit on the essential dichotomy (or perhaps it's a "schism") between the two groups of people on this site. There are those who like a multitude of options and don't much care about ease of switching or intuitive operation. These folks tend to be more involved in recording. The other group wants just a few sounds, easily accessible. These guys are mostly gigging, and want "switch-on-the-fly" simplicity. We try to accommodate both types here . . . I also am no great shakes as a guitarist. I have both types of guitars, some are very simple, others are pretty complex. My "4caster", a 4 SC Strat, gets pretty complex. 4real is right, after playing with it for a while, I now pay little attention to which position is series or parallel, I have a few favorites the I now "go to" much more frequently than others. And, in these more complex schemes, there are usually some positions that sound like some others, so they are functionally duplicates even though electrically distinct. BTW, genmce, when discussing series and parallel combos of pickups, we use a certain nomenclature (it's standard here at least, although perhaps not elsewhere); a "+" sign indicates a parallel connection, while a "X" (or " * ") means a series connection. This sort of correlates to what is happening electrically, and makes it easy for us to understand what another is saying.
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Post by genmce on Sept 29, 2011 9:59:48 GMT -5
Yes, the blue dotted lines is to indicate that all the pots and grounds are connected, I generally start with that and then solder all these to a brass washer that is screwed into the cavity of the guitar ("star grounding") and so to the shielding. Don't forget to ground the bridge/strings (usually the trem spring claw) to this also. Thank you - do you actually attach the pots cans with wire to the ring or let the connection to the metal shield and attach the shield to the ring. I need to go read that article again. Yep, starting with the superswitch is a good plan, worth checking it will fit and that you have the wiring around the right way so the switch works as selected. If it does not fit, it may mean shaving off a tiny bit of the cavity below it, be careful as it is not thick there and some guitars like my squier are thinner than a real fender. I hope I don't have to do this, as the MIM 2006 has conductive paint... I prefer the SC sound myself, depends on the music you play or sound you want. Man, I want quack! This is new for me... I used to love the just humbucker sound and did not like that "fender" sound. I am a convert. Actually had me thinking about selling the paul... What this wiring scheme does offer though are some passable gibson-ish sounds in the series mode. Still no pots in the mail, perhaps today... I can't wait to hear it. I started modding things on cheap copies in my teens through to now in various phases and at various times. I like having a few guitars and the process of designing and building things that are unique. However, I really, really can't afford much and if I am going to use it, as long as it is a good guitar to play, there are advantages to a decent cheap guitar that you are not going to be too precious about. Yup and it's a forgiving place to experiment. Earlier things had switches like a porcupine. Many times a toggle switch is more appropriate than a pull or even a selector. There was an old wiring mod that was done to strats of replacing the 5way with three toggles that was really practical (Knophler used it on his tunnel of love era shecter strat). That was my first experiment with guitar wiring. I did the 3 on off on dpdt switches from the guitar nutz webpage to my harmony strat clone. I put a 14k bridge pu into it, old sd i think, along with the two that came on the guitar (cheap cheap...) I liked the sound. It was a bit frustrating wiring all those little jumpers on those switches. I had to drill holes in the pickguard to get them to fit too. It is pretty easy to know where you are on that one as well. It still wired that way, but it never had that quack i have grown to love on the mim. Fun stuff. Nice to have a place to discuss it.
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Post by genmce on Sept 29, 2011 10:10:42 GMT -5
genmce has hit on the essential dichotomy (or perhaps it's a "schism") between the two groups of people on this site. There are those who like a multitude of options and don't much care about ease of switching or intuitive operation. These folks tend to be more involved in recording. The other group wants just a few sounds, easily accessible. These guys are mostly gigging, and want "switch-on-the-fly" simplicity. We try to accommodate both types here . . . I am in both camps. Understood, I will adopt convention.
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Post by 4real on Sept 29, 2011 16:01:47 GMT -5
Well, the spin select will bring back the quack and balance in the HSS strat. Typically the HB at the bridge is a little overpowered for the other pickups, one that sounds good split like my SD JB will have close to the typical strat quack in position 4 and a slightly warmer bridge pup sound, pull it and you get a different thinner quack and bright strat 5 position. With the original pickups and 5 way wiring on this squier, position 4 was this odd thin sound, the middle and close by bridge HB I think was being slightly phased. Not a bad sound but thin and lacking bass and volume. Of course without any splitting of the HB position 5 was loud and thick overpowering the other pups. ... I think when people start messing with these kinds of mods they start off putting in everything but the kitchen sink. I remember seeing the covers of my Ted Greene books and seeing his guitars sprouting switches everytwhere... It's something that I've done a bit of and can get different reactions from, there is some psychology in it depending on the audience...I have been finding this in spaces lately with fingerpicking things I am attempting, people seem to look down on the strat even though it is great for that style, hence making something that looks 'acoustic/jazzy' while having more electronics in it than anything. If people see a lot of switches, they expect you to use them it seems, or that the guitar will do something astonishing, not just 30+ flavours of strat. The same goes for guitars and different genres of music, I used to play surf music on my original LP, but it would have looked more convincing if it were a strat, or better yet a jazzmaster or mosright and damn the tuning problems lol. ... Sometimes you might want to work out your wiring interests and experiments on a test guitar...I replaced my old one with a decent copy that plays without a scratchplate so I can drop in different pickups and cardboard control plates with double sided tape and such before I hack up a decent instrument with a lot of 'what ifs'... My old one was the 'phase-o-caster'... This $50 pawnshop-prize was played and modded to death. Remember that wiring is only a part of the mods one can work with. I used plumbing washers behind the tuners to stagger them, replaced the bridge, virtually hollowed out the whole body, sanding and refinishing, tkaing the gloos off the back of the neck...wiring wise, three phase switches, the original sustainer, you can just see a wire from the neck pocket for piezo, a back cavity around the jack socket for circuitry...so many things in there...a socket and plug so that that scratchplate could be taken out without having to cut the grounds. It was a lot of fun for quite a few years and taught me a lot... These days though, I want a little of both, I like a guitar with a distinct character and looks good, has the versatility but does not offer up unreasonable audience (this could be just a fellow guitar player) anticipation. I have been enamoured to the tremolo bar a bit in the last decade and that subtle 'shimmer' has become a part of my 'sound'. The trem on my tele gives that, but in quizzing people why they like me playing that guitar over the LP or this strat, invariably it comes down to that they like the "colour"!!! Guitar players can fall for the look of a bigsby (never felt they were practical myself, but they have retro mojo) or a particular shape (I have an unhealthy attraction to the Iceman...hmmm...in korina, but not the newer versions....hmmm, iceman). Audience too to an extent. I'm betting that seeing me play an 'archtop', even if significantly plastic and chock full of preamps, will allow some to accept it as some kind of acoustic guitar...even though most of the sound is coming out of a full on HB from an LP. ... I wouldn't be drilling into even a MIM strat, but that's me...but, there are plenty of replacement pickguards around to go nuts with, if you don't alter the wood, no harm is done. I would explore things that make it play better and feel good to you, string gauges, trem adjustments, all those kinds of things make a huge difference and might even make you play better, who knows... With some screwing around with guitars, you will start to get a feel for what 'you' really want in an instrument...then you can create it...and then you will soon be thinking...you know, I want...
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Post by genmce on Sept 30, 2011 12:52:45 GMT -5
Well, the spin select will bring back the quack and balance in the HSS strat. Typically the HB at the bridge is a little overpowered for the other pickups, one that sounds good split like my SD JB will have close to the typical strat quack in position 4 and a slightly warmer bridge pup sound, pull it and you get a different thinner quack and bright strat 5 position. Got my pots yesterday, however, the family was more needy. Kids and wife wanted my attention. That guitar looks like a lot of fun! I like that idea - which is why I was working on the austin cheepy, but it does not have a bridge humbucker or the correct pickguard for one. It is also why i was asking about other guitars with the electronics in the back, I truly do NOT enjoy taking the pickguard off the front... Yeah, I was not planning on drilling on the MIM, although, I got it for only $240 with a roland microcube. I figure I could sell the microcube for $50, but I actually like it and use it much more than my gk gmt200g (that thing is way to loud for me - I should sell it). Ok - so i solder tonight. Can't find another .01 cap for the tone pot, all I have left are .033 or 0.047's so might have to use your original drawing for that one...(capless) unless i can find some dead electronic device around the house to harvest one, wait, what happens to capacitance when you parallel? Nope that will sum them... farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/302l/lectures/node46.htmlSeries will be the sum reciprocal? Huh?
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Post by 4real on Sept 30, 2011 16:51:44 GMT -5
I wired mine onto a cardboard forma above, I used green wires for ground but it might be ricky to see. I use a file to scratch off a small section on the back side of the pot itself and presolder it nice and shinny, then tin the wire and melt the two together. I avoid wiring to the switch box section as it is thin and the inside block is plastic and could potentially melt or effect it's working... Also could be easier before fitting parts to wire as necessary the components so there are wires hanging off of everything connected if that makes sense, then you only need to connect the other end as required. If you do need to take out a bit of wood below the switch, it will hardly be much, perhaps a mill, it won't effect the shileding too bad. If it just touches, and as a precaution anyway, put some PVC tape or similar over that part of the shileding or the switch itself just in case. I will ofeten do this anyway, but with a strat, it is so easy for things to get moved or squashed when the guard is screwed down and troubleshooting can be a pain. Any connected wires should also be taped up so they wont touch something and short out. It is easy to get pickup wires around the wrong way, typically these days, I take a short multiwire or several wires from the connection points on pots and such and bring them to one place...you can just see a multicoloured 'ribbon wire' of 5 coming out of the thick black shielded pickup wire above, the 4 HB connections and the separate shielding ground. Best to do this at least for the sheilded cable rather than try and solder that braid to a pot, again heat risk and neatness...plus easier! On my giutar, all the pickups are noiseless or effectively Humbucking...the singles are fender noiseless from a jeff beck strat from 'stratosphere'. The original MR scheme might better indicate which selections are humbucking. On mine, only the split HB makes any noise and it is slight, using the spin-select reduces it by bring in the other coil a little. The Cap...O.01...I used one on the spin-select to add a different flavour to that control...0.001 which is even smaller... This is not necessary, adds just a little more to the control, work fine without the cap....hmmm Ahhh...the half phase thing, this makes the phase thing a little less dramatic and thin, use a jumper wire instead and it will be full phase, in use, swap that wire for a cap next time you change strings. You might luck out getting something that works in your guitar by mixing pots and the like, but it is hit and miss. With my guitar, I could wire it and play everything before I had to even get it in the guitar. ... BTW...someone here split a pickguard on a strat for easier access, so only the lower half removes to get at the wiring, that's an option instead of a back routed guitar. I have even used the cardboard thing in such guitars, extending the wires from the pickups under the guards edges...that ribbon wire is pretty thin for instance, once you know it works, cut the wires shorter and use the colour codes to put things back together. Being able to work outside the guitar till things need connecting is so much easier than trying to wire inside a small cavity (that is why Leo wired up scratchplates) and being able to know everything is working as expected, or to play around with different caps while being able to play the guitar saves a lot of heartache when schemes like this have so many connections and things that can go wrong.
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Post by genmce on Oct 2, 2011 2:47:04 GMT -5
Well... that was rough! However, the price paid in sweat and frustration is rewarded by incredible QUACK! My saga was not pretty. Started Friday, went several hours, couple more Saturday.
Things I wish I had considered before jumping in.
1. The physical orientation of the super switch. (which way the side plate faced in the guitar) I had pre-wired the jumpers before having the strat open. Alas - had to redo it and in the process killed a soldering iron and dripped solder down one of the terminals (on the inside wafer) on the super switch preventing movement. Luck was on my side, at least a little - the terminal was not used, so I bent it up just enough to be of the way.
2. Quieting the beast - I had a terrible hum when first assembled. I had attached wires to the pot cans for grounding. Silly me - with several encouraging emails from 4Real, I pushed on into the night. Established the star ground (removed all those wires) and snap - the hum was gone and I was greeted with ecstatic silence. (I had been listening to hum for way to long - why I did not just turn down the volume escapes me. Perhaps is was some sort of penance.) So if you do this wiring - do the quieting thing first, you will be glad you did.
After that, I was feeling pretty good. "I CAN do this" was going thru my head. Which is good, because a little while earlier it was - "Why did I open up my guitar, I can't even play it now, and I wasted my time. I'll have to put it back the way it was... UGH!" I test the pickups by taping gently with my small allen wrench for action adjustment. I tap a pickup and think all is well. I find that the volume pot is backwards - clockwise turns volume down... so I "fix" by reversing the wires to it. I then test more pickups and find... Alas - some work some don't.
3. So here is another thing I wish I had known. Test it a bit more thoroughly before introducing another variable. Had I tested the pickups further, I would have gone to the super switch first and saved a hassle.
Another encouraging email from 4Real... suggesting I probably screwed something up on the volume pot.
Today - Saturday - Radio Shack and a new $11 iron. I change the volume pot back. Then, I trace my steps on the super switch (mid pickup is on all the time) to find one wire in the wrong place. The smoking gun found! Not the burnt up soldering iron either. Fix that and things are much better now - pickup tests reacting as described above. Light at the end of the tunnel!
I put the pick guard in place - just as I am turning the last screw I stare in disbelief at the volume pot. Rats... I forgot to switch it so it would go the right direction for me. Plug the iron back in, yada yada. Getting there - place the pickguard back in place... decide I better test the tone pot... CRAP! That one is backwards too. Plug the iron back in... Fix that. 4. Test for as much data as possible while exposed. Buy a guitar with the electronics in the back.
Screws in place - tune up. Well. Well, well, well, I have a new guitar. I mean - geeze. This thing rocks! Talk about QUACK! I feel like a duck. I have a ton of fun, just playing with the parallel sounds. Fading other coil in on the humbucker is way cool! A very nice palette - and I agree with 4Real - well layed out. Then pull the switch on the volume pot - and even more variety. Plenty of new places to explore.
Was it worth all that agony? In one simple word,
Yes.
Thanks to 4Real for the diagram, the encouragement and the words of wisdom, as well as all the others, MR, who have investigated and shared what they know here. This is a great place.
I learned a lot on this project. Had I done the quieting the beast first, and knew how to orient the switch, this could have gone much better. My wiring was actually pretty good, one error. Oh yeah - I did have some trouble doing the humbucker because I did not know which wire went were on the diagram. (Although, I had it right, I just did not know it, with all the hum I thought I had wired the pickup wrong.)
5. Know the color codes for your pickups.
Thanks to all. I'd post a picture - but it looks like any other MIM, arctic white, stock, strat ... but it AIN'T!
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 2, 2011 10:36:16 GMT -5
Well, I would say you've captured the manic depressive cycle that almost everyone here has gone through on their first guitar modification.
+1 to you for sticking it out and finishing with a "new" guitar. And another +1 to 4Real for helping a brother out...which is the kind of thing that puts this forum head an shoulders above the rest.
Pictures are cool...but sound files are really cool. Makes a nice reference for future victims candidates who might want to try this mod...
Be advised, this sort of behavior does become addictive.
Happy Trails -
Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Oct 2, 2011 13:26:01 GMT -5
Thanks G, this is a great forum for these things and was happy to help. This scheme is great with a giant logically laid out number of selections thanks to the MR scheme and the 'spin select' is a really useful control....all of this with a stock look. As you have found out, it really fixes the compromise that most HSS strats are, allowing access to that quack (two varieties with the split HB) and some new 'quack' similar to a tele with the N+B sounds...and of course the OP or HoOP control. Of course you still have access to the full HB (and all points between), the only thing missing is the middle alone. Love a white strat...hmmm...need more guitars. All those mistakes are 'par for the course', the reason I now always work wiring on cardboard is that I make those kinds of things (reversed volume pots, etc) or risk burning the guitar with solder, or just bad connections sticking the iron into tight places of a rear cavity. Plus, these complex schemes generally do take hours possibly days to do well...mine did, but I didn't tell you that it took all day because it might have put you off...having completed it you can now see the point and reaped the rewards. Meanwhile, while helping you, it kept me on track through my own frustrations working on my new guitar making significant progress...this one has and will take weeks more...but once you get the bug, eventually you will do it again to some other poor guitar Here's a pic of the new guitar after the weekend's progress next to my strat....now, don't forget to tidy up after yourself and do nice things for those around you that gave you time to do this...or they won't let you do it again!!!? So...too early to ask, what's next?
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