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Post by cynical1 on Dec 21, 2010 19:49:02 GMT -5
As often happens, in the process of looking for something on the Internet I found something more interesting then what I was looking for. Seems this has been out for a year or so, but it was news to me...guess I need to get to Sweden more...  No, it's not Photoshop'd...it's supposed to look like this. The guy who developed this, Anders Thidell, calls it the "True Temperament" system. I remember the Fretwave stuff, but that was only the bottom two frets as I recall. This is a bit more involved. If you can get past the knucklehead from Premier Guitars doing the interview, the explanation of the system from the designer is interesting. If you've got the time, here's a few demos. Granted, this is a YouTube video over your PC speakers, but it's the best references I could find. OK, so it's in Swedish... Well, it comes from Sweden...A little more info...but listening to the guy play is better...Here's a good example of chords all over the neck.Here's how they CNC route the fingerboards for this system: Not very exciting, granted...A couple of things I wonder about is how it works on dropped tunings, changes in string gauge and those out there who like to bend a few strings... Well, this guy bends a lot of strings, and he's talking about having all of his guitars converted over to these necks: John McLaughlin uses the system, too...but I couldn't find any videos of him actually using it... So do a bunch of European guitarists that I don't know...but hey, they don't know me either... If you've got time to kill there is a host of pretty detailed information about the system, tuning in general and theories Thidell employed to develop this system. Does it work? I don't know...but the first one of you guys with $795.00 USD to burn on a guitar neck, or $845.00 for a bass neck can tell me and the rest of us... (This is the base price. Special neck contour and 24 frets extra...oh, and that's the unfinished price...and then you've got shipping from Sweden...) Just thought you guys would find this interesting. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 21, 2010 21:04:00 GMT -5
crazy. I wonder if it helps SV's playing to suck on lemons like that.
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Post by gumbo on Dec 22, 2010 4:21:18 GMT -5
....you don't by any chance think that it was a scheme to get rid of all the necks after the CNC machine cr@pt itself, do you?  |
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Post by sumgai on Dec 23, 2010 0:50:05 GMT -5
I'm staying outta this.....
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 23, 2010 6:45:56 GMT -5
I'm staying outta this..... Aw, come on...don't make me mark my calendar... I actually burned a little time reading the volume of information posted on the site. Some of the tuning theory and details on the work that went into developing their brain child was interesting. If it's marketing hype, they're gonna put the majority of people to sleep with it... There's actually several systems they offer depending on your style and where you like to play on the neck. The system(s) have their limitations in regards to string gauge, drop tunings and certain keys. Bunny Brunel uses it, and I would consider him one of the most melodic bass players with about the sweetest bass tone around. If he feels it has its merits, and I had money to burn, or won the lottery, I'd probably give it a shot just to find out. ...but they shouldn't wait by the phone for my order anytime soon... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by asmith on Dec 23, 2010 16:09:06 GMT -5
Soon as I saw the thread title, I knew Stevie would be involved in the post. I think it's a great idea on paper, but I don't like the idea that there are different versions for different keys. That means if I want to play music in F#, I'll need a different guitar to the one for that song in G, 'cause the F# instrument will sound more out-of-tune than a regularly-fretted neck, right?
Maybe it's great for those players who've decided they have the perfect guitar and the cash to burn on various instruments for various songs in various keys - but not myself. After all, if we're building and wiring guitars to have a wider range of tones, why would we limit what we can play in tune?
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Post by 4real on Dec 23, 2010 17:46:45 GMT -5
One has to wonder with all these systems is if your more 'tune-i-ness' wont just make the rest of the band without this kind of thing (keyboards, other guitars, etc) sound more out of tune...just a thought...
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Post by gumbo on Dec 23, 2010 22:13:22 GMT -5
One has to wonder with all these systems is if your more 'tune-i-ness' wont just make the rest of the band without this kind of thing (keyboards, other guitars, etc) sound more out of tune...just a thought...
....HEY!!!
....I can do that WITHOUT one of those fancy guitars.... ;D
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Post by sumgai on Dec 24, 2010 5:06:03 GMT -5
One has to wonder with all these systems is if your more 'tune-i-ness' wont just make the rest of the band without this kind of thing (keyboards, other guitars, etc) sound more out of tune...just a thought...
....HEY!!!
....I can do that WITHOUT one of those fancy guitars.... ;DI see an order in your future, placed by a certain blackguard..... |
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 24, 2010 12:38:38 GMT -5
I would think that a properly tuned keyboard - or flute, sax, etc - would have the problem without this kind of thing. My assumption would be that this fret job would bring the guitar closer to in tune with those instruments. Why would that be different for any given key?
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Post by 4real on Dec 24, 2010 16:45:19 GMT -5
I'd come across this a year or so ago and there is some really interesting food for thought (mind the hype) and some devil in the details... www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4&sgo=0#A10<= devil details  For instance... and... So, you get closer to "just temperament' related to the harmonic series (found in every note in it's harmonic content behind the fundamental, which is a lot of what this is about)...but at the sacrifice of some keys which will sound more "out" than standard more "equal temperament" which is a mathematical compromise to allow for the post baroque ability to freely modulate, etc... They describe a kind of "chorusing" when playing with other guitars for instance, that is just the slight differences in tuned notes modulating...the meantone blues you can't use with other guitars like that they say. I actually use the trem arm to create some of this kind of effect subtly as it allows one to play slightly "flat" which corrects some of these problems or at least the 'sourness' of being sharp. You notice it a lot with the harmonic setting on the sustainer...these tend to be very high above the fretted notes and in line with the harmonic series and so just temperament...they don't sound "wrong" as part of the natural harmonics within the note....similar to ZZ top playing ping harmonics in LaGrange (LOL) they all seem to make some 'sense' as they are a part of the original note. Anyways...for what you gain there is a loss and there are other ways you can approach things if you have a mind to...losing keys is a bit much! A piano tends to be tuned in equal temperament between the octaves and a lot of harmonic western music relies on these compromises. A vocal, a horn or a string instrument without frets is usually adjusted 'by ear'...a trumpet for instance generates notes with the harmonic series...and this can tend towards the more natural sounding temperament (if they are good) and part of learning how to play such instruments 'in tune' that guitar players tend to avoid. One of the reasons a guitarists 'bent' notes can sound 'sweeter' is that they tend to bend slightly below the note getting a more 'vocal sound' (similar with slide guitar)...and in country music perhaps intentionally getting a more spiky accurate bend to the 'tune pitch'... My first job out of school, the boss played trumpet in one of those TV bands and was always going on about how guitar players never played in tune...I'm sure they were professional enough, but what he was actually saying was that they were intrinsically 'out of tune' instruments to his ear! ... On a slight tangent...this was brought to my attention recently...a 'passive' autotune system... evertune.com/overview_home.html...the hype says "keep you guitar in tune forever"...LOL... But again the devil in the details and while it looks fabulous on the surface, that's a lot of routing and fiddling about to set the thing up and bending strings sounds like a real problem as it tries to equalize the tension and all...and people complain about the affect of trem systems on "tone"...LOL ... There are lots of these kids of things about, there is always some merit behind them and it is probably worth considering some of these things in the way you set up and play the guitar. But with them all there are compromises and even structural things...such as moving the nut forward with the Buzz Frietlin system and tuning in offsets, etc. Unless you are going to go fretless and avoid open notes, there isn't ever going to be a real overall 'solution'. In the old days, 'guitarists' (lute-ists) had movable frets to play in different keys of course, so perhaps we could see a return to that. The "key colour" thing is interesting although perhaps a little over stated...because the guitar has it's own kind of temperament there are some distinct 'key colours' on the thing...which can be used if you don't mess with the temperament excessively... ... Food for thought, but I doubt any of these things will get general acceptance and in general people are used to hearing music with all it's little compromises |
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Post by sumgai on Dec 24, 2010 21:06:23 GMT -5
My gut feeling about that Evertune thing is, any time you have to spend the same amount of moolah as a reasonable guitar (500 to 600 $$$), on just one part that is supposedly "dirt simple", then my BS detecting nose starts twitching like to make Samantha* jealous. SITDH sumgai *As in, Elizabeth Montgomery |
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Post by Yew on Dec 28, 2010 10:36:16 GMT -5
You could get a whole guitar for that price... And a very ncie one at that. Maybe two ones if you played it clever
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Post by wolf on Dec 28, 2010 18:40:03 GMT -5
Yeah I'd rather shell out my hard-earned money for something that's worth the extra bucks:
• vintage capacitors
• oxygen-free copper guitar cables
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Post by sumgai on Dec 28, 2010 19:46:33 GMT -5
Yeah I'd rather shell out my hard-earned money for something that's worth the extra bucks:
• vintage capacitors
• oxygen-free copper guitar cables Ya know, 500 comedians are out of work, and wolf is sitting there making jokes..... |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 29, 2010 11:31:14 GMT -5
Yeah I'd rather shell out my hard-earned money for something that's worth the extra bucks:
• vintage capacitors
• oxygen-free copper guitar cables Ya know, 500 comedians are out of work, and wolf is sitting there making jokes..... Yeah, for free. Ya get what ya pay for.  |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 29, 2010 14:26:13 GMT -5
Yeah I'd rather shell out my hard-earned money for something that's worth the extra bucks:
• vintage capacitors
• oxygen-free copper guitar cables Ya know, 500 comedians are out of work, and wolf is sitting there making jokes..... I would be inclined to call that sarcasm...bordering on cynicism...which is always free, anyway... Safe to say no comedians were harmed in the execution of that quip. While I agree that this is probably just a niche they're filling for a small clientele, I think the idea does have merit. Having to purchase multiple configurations to allow use of all available keys will definitely clear the field at $800.00 a pop. In essence, as I read their documentation, it takes 4 different fret configurations to get every available key to work in their system. So, if you wanted this feature on all your Les Paul, Start and Tele guitars you're looking at 12 different necks on 12 different bodies. So, at $1500.00/e (ballpark) for each guitar, then another $800.00/e and tossing in $50.00 for each set-up, it would cost you somewhere in the neighborhood of $28,000.00 to equip all the aforementioned guitars with their system. Guess you'd have to be a Steve Vai to drop that kind of coin... I personally see fret jobs and re-fretting as the major downside to this system. A straight fret job ain't cheap, and when you add a collection of 22 "dog's hind leg" shaped frets I can see it being cheaper just to buy a new neck... But, with the Lottery at $237 million this Friday, I'll let you guys know how it works if I win. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by wolf on Dec 29, 2010 17:08:06 GMT -5
Wow I thought this topic was being discussed with a slightly humorous approach. I guess not.  Well, I'm sorry if my posting offended anyone. After seriously thinking about going back to my first posting, editing it, then denying I ever posted it, I chose another route.  I decided to look up about true temperament versus equal tempered tunings. First stop - Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperamenten.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperamentI remember a TV show (many decades ago) that showed a piano tuned to a true temperament (aka well temperament). It was probably a 'C' temperament whereby the frequencies of a C chord would be in the ratio of 3:4:5 It sounded fantastic until they changed the key and it sounded out of tune. I thought the concept of true temperament wasn't being discussed much anymore and I was very happy relying on music based on the 12th root of 2. Now it seems true temperament is not as uncommon as I once thought. |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 29, 2010 17:19:10 GMT -5
Hey, I'm not offended. I thought it was funny...
While this idea does have merit, the number of people who actually are aware of the different temperaments, as well as having the spare change to drop on said "true temperament" neck seem to naturally cull the herd of customers beating a path to their door.
But, if you hook in enough "high dollar' talent just setting up a portion of their stable of guitars would pay off well.
Honestly, over the years I've just come to accept that certain scales and chords don't work well on my bass. I just don't play them...and keep the odd $800.00 in my pocket...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by newey on Dec 29, 2010 20:37:14 GMT -5
Wolf, I thought it was funny- and also apropos. MarketingSpeak seems to play a role here as well . . .
It does have just enough of the "gee-whiz factor" that I suspect they'll sell a few to ordinary players who just have to have whatever is the supposed latest and greatest.
No one has mentioned it, but I would imagine there's a bit of a learning curve here, just because in places the fret isn't where you're used to it being. I'm thinking maintaining even pressure across a Barre chord might be a challenge at first. Of course, over time one can get used to lots of things.
As far as well temperament- well, pull up a log to the fire, I have a story . . .
Back in the dim mists of time, I was in college at a large State University, studying history. Needing an elective course to fill out my schedule, one semester I signed up for a sort-of symposium, I forget the name, but it was one of those things designed to "broaden one's horizons" and expose students to different disciplines. This was done by having the students, each week, visit a different professor in various fields, both scientific and humanistic. The professor would explain his or her current research, and they were instructed not to "dumb it down" for a lay audience.
It was interesting; one week was held at the campus cyclotron with a professor in particle physics explaining his research, another week it was some linguist translating ancient Sanskrit or whatnot.
One week we went to the music lab, and listened to a professor (whose name I wish I could remember) who was doing research on how Bach, and other Baroque-era composers, really envisioned their music, played as it was on a "well-tempered Clavier", in contrast to how we hear it nowadays on modern equal-tempered instruments.
To demonstrate, he began playing some snippets of Bach on a spinet piano, tuned in an equal temperament- all familiar stuff anyone would recognize, a bit of the Brandenburg, some "Ode to Joy" etc.
To demonstrate how it sounded as Bach wrote it, the guy flips up the lid of the piano and proceeds to retune it to a well temper, by ear! Granted, not all 88, just a few octaves to demonstrate, but still, my jaw dropped open!
On most of the keys, he just gave it a twist and it was spot-on; a couple he had to go back and tweak again, but most he got on the first go-round. He obviously had perfect pitch, and I watched this in amazement.
After running through the same Bach licks, he retuned it to equal temperament just as easily as he had changed it. Couple of minutes max.
Of course, the point was to show the difference in how Bach sounded- and it was very different, sort of jarring to modern ears. But I was still grokking over him tuning the piano by ear . . .
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Post by 4real on Dec 30, 2010 0:19:46 GMT -5
Well this is a point....we are used to equal temperament and audiences accept it.
When I was younger and in music school...I used to think of ways around it, even thought up symetr9ical tunings and such like perfect 4ths where you can get a standard guitar more 'in tune' and have an overall symmetry to patterns on the fretboard...but then you lose a lot of the chordal thing....
Really it was Bach and his 'well tempered clavalier' that brought in the 'equal temperament' thing and allowed the ability to modulate through keys like that...but then these things did change over time...
I still think a lot about this kind of thing, details about voicings of chords and use of the trem arm to alter the pitch of notes...
On bass...well I have a fretless LOL...but otherwise I'm surprised you can hear it being out at such a low register if it's in tune and intonated well enough. As it is tuned all in 4ths it can be tuned to be better if you avoid open strings a bit...
All these things are compromises but really this "true temperament (TM)" isn't harmonically 'perfect' by any means and got lots of restrictions and compromised behind the hype...like restrictions on keys, the fact you are generally playing with non-true temperament instruments, etc...it comes across a little 'silly'...
There are some 'improvements' that can be made...but I don't think this is the way!
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Post by sumgai on Dec 30, 2010 1:06:58 GMT -5
wolf,
For the record, I thought it was funny, that's why I popped out with my own joke. (Which isn't really mine, I copped it from somewhere else, about 30 years ago....)
As c1 notes, mine was a take-off on your's being a reference to MarketingSpeak, and the effect such has on P. T. Barnum's favorite personality. What I probably should've done is include the wide-grin smilie a few lines down - sorry if my omission caused you any heartburn!
sumgai
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 30, 2010 10:17:45 GMT -5
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