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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 11, 2011 21:00:45 GMT -5
Another day, another issue with a Greco SE450 Strat copy to which I am giving rebirth. When removing the middle pickup, I discovered the black plastic base was loose. I need to re-attach as I am planning on potting all three pickups due to the colicky whine of the microphonic. I want to be able to string some wire through both of the holes in the base so as to be able to jiggle the air bubbles loose, and more importantly, to retrieve my pickups from the 150 degree wax.
I had Duro Super Glue in hand, and then stopped to think. It recommends staying away from polypropelene plastic, and since I am not a plastic officianado, I thought some more. Anyone have a recommendation as to what glue to use to re-attach a plastic base to a pickup in a 1979 Greco SE450? It's not just the bond I'm thinking about, but also the fact that once I know it's dry, I'll be bathing it in parafin, beeswax and lanolin. It would be a considerable disappointment to have to retrieve the pickup with a spoon or something similar.
Thanks in advance for any response.
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 11, 2011 21:12:50 GMT -5
Well I'd have super glued it and not thought twice...but hey, that's just me.
Gluing a pickup base is not terribly uncommon. Normally there's some press fit involved, but I haven't seen your pickups.
The loose base would be a concern as I don't know if your coil wires are attached...or still attached to the base. If those wires break loose the pickup base will be the least of your worries...
Would it be possible to see a picture of said pickup before I pass final judgment?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 11, 2011 21:43:33 GMT -5
Pictures are blurry...lame excuse is that the wife got a new camera and I don't (ever) have time for this particular kind of change.   No worries about the coils as the plastic that is loose is not actually the pup base. And since the spleen is sitting out for all to see, I might as well ask another question - I'm assuming that the blue tape is not covering some sort of sealant that will prevent the potting from being successful. I'm not going to remove the tape. Is my assumption that potting is worthwhile a good one? |
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 11, 2011 22:17:50 GMT -5
The base in question appears to have no structural purpose, except to allow you to attach said pickup to the pickguard.
If it were me, I'd make sure the plastic base and the bobbin were completely clean and wax\gunk free and glue it. I prefer the gel type Super Glue, just because it works better on imperfect surfaces...and doesn't run all over my fingers...
If you want to put a small drop on an insignificant portion of the base to see if the glue eats it, that might not be a bad idea...just don't put it down right way... I think you'll be OK, but better to error on the side of caution.
You might want to head for the boat shop, or a good hardware store and see if they have any heat resistant epoxy. I can't recommend anything specific, as it's been so long that I've had to epoxy anything the brands I used were probably closed down by the EPA...
The tape is a different matter. Depending on how tight it's on there, you may do more harm then good removing it. If it feels like it'd come off without a fight, if it were me, and I was potting the pickups, I'd take it off. I doubt it's doing anything of any consequence.
Other voices may chime in here, but depending on how secure that tape is I have to wonder how much wax is going to penetrate into the coil.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Apr 11, 2011 23:43:55 GMT -5
Go, More likely, the 150° wax will destroy the tape's substrate. Certainly it will make tatters out of the adhesive. Best advice: take it off, or give up the idea. Hint: good pups are a dime a dozen these days. Set the Greco pickups aside for "historic value" purposes, and drop in a set of Artec's or anything from Guitar Fetish. May be a bit more expensive on the face of it, but in the long run, the risk of harm to your baby is not insignificant. Think of it this way - if you blow up your Greco pup(s), you're gonna have to replace it/them anyway, or else the guitar's useless. Might as well beat the Christmas rush, and do it now.....  HTH Oh.... (oops)..... Hi, and  to the NutzHouse! sumgai |
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 12, 2011 10:29:13 GMT -5
First, thanks much. Cynical advice, and advice from Sumgai. Very sound and thoughtful.
I really like the alternate pickups idea as preserving the Greco is important. Looking at Guitar Fetish, I'm concerned that some of these pickups are so cheap that I would be fearful of the purchase. Any suggestions to replicate a '69 Strat sound? The Greco pickups are great sounding, just noisy.
Thanks again, Go
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Post by newey on Apr 12, 2011 17:13:36 GMT -5
GFS makes a nice pickup, I've used several of theirs and liked all of them. For the price they really can't be beat.
Now, single coils are going to have some noise, and while your Grecos seem unreasonably noisy, don't expect the GFS SCs to be silent.
To really deal with the noise issue, you might consider getting a set of the noisefree SCs, they run a bit more for the set of 3 than the regular SCs but will be quieter if that's your main concern. I haven't tried a set of the noiseless ones yet, but I've heard good things.
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 12, 2011 18:15:30 GMT -5
I'm probably gonna hear about this from the GFS devotees here, but I have to side with you. If it looks too cheap I tend to pull back. The one exception to "it looks too cheap" to be worth the money are the Wilde pickups. This is Bill Lawrence's new incantation. You buy directly from them. I played a bass with his rail P-Bass pickups in it years ago and was very impressed. I'll probably go with them in my bass re-build...whenever that project starts... I would suggest at least checking them out. The Strat noise free replacements are found here. If you wanted a rail single coil humbucker, you can find them here. Don't let the whole Dimebag Darrel thing leave you with the impression that Bill only makes high output eardrum shredders. For $44.00-$52.00 for the pole type Strat pickups, or $46.00 for the rails version, these pickups will hold their own against any of the big names out there. Kent Armstrong also makes a nice line, but he's gotten a bit pricey of late. And any of these pickup can be found on eBay for cheap if you're patient enough. Project #3, the Fernandes Sustainer rescue guitar, will have two L-90's in it. I received a reply to my e-mail from Becky Lawrence with their recommendations for 8.0 H in the bridge and 6.0 H in the modified middle\neck position...and a sign off that if the pickups don't work with the Sustainer they'll buy them back. How many pickup makers will do that? I toss this out there in the spirit of due diligence for your research. I'll leave you with Bill playing his rail Strat pickups. Happy Trails Cynical One EDIT: I just went to their website and they're offering a pre-sale on Strat replacement of N/M/B sets at $120.00 + shipping. FYI |
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 12, 2011 22:06:49 GMT -5
This is a great board. Thanks much, Gents! Much thinking to do, though a decision must come quickly. My guitar lies bleeding on the bench. Thanks so much for the assist(s).
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 12, 2011 23:50:41 GMT -5
you can try golden age pickups from stewmac.com their wound and/or hot wound to vintage specs their usually around $40 but to save alot of hassle for about $150 you can get a prewired pickguard with your choice of stock vintage or hot wound in many pickguard color options all you have to do is install the jack and ground to the bridge/trem claw. its that easy
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 13, 2011 7:45:46 GMT -5
Thought about the pickguard assembly approach, but wondered about the match with an MIJ Greco from 1979. The lawsuit label did not yet fully apply, and evej if it did, no telling if exact specs were used. Don't want to be fillin' and drillin' the body if I can avoid that, because any vintage quality that might be retained is gone at that point. I've been asking the different purveyors if they can provide me specs on pickup dimensions and wire length, just to be sure I get a good fit there. Due diligence sucks when you just want to play the damn thing...
To repeat, this is a great board. No way my outcomes on this little project are as good without all of the help here. Greatly appreciated, Gents!
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 13, 2011 8:23:33 GMT -5
It may take Becky at Wilde (Bill Lawrence) a few days to get back to you, but they have always answered my questions, as well as addressed follow-up questions.
Give them the specs on your pickups in your e-mail and they can give you a good yes or no on fit.
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 13, 2011 9:39:14 GMT -5
as far as capatability just put the gut into your existing pickguard and the other can be saved or sold.
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 13, 2011 13:13:44 GMT -5
as far as capatability just put the gut into your existing pickguard and the other can be saved or sold. But at that point, I'm doing some assembly. Why buy a pickguard and other parts that I don't need? So many pickups, so little time... |
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 14, 2011 19:54:19 GMT -5
The lesson: pickup noise, and even the microphonic squeal, don't seem as bad when one tries to construct multiple remedies that present less than optimal outcomes as possibilities, most notably a long wait to get custom parts. I now understand that vintage hum is an acquired taste. And then comes the justification of saved money and time. The guitar is better than ever after surgery to...do nothing!
Thanks to all who chimed in on my dilemmas.
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 17, 2011 11:26:52 GMT -5
OK...maybe the acquired taste doesn't include the ever more irritating micrphonic pickups. I figured I could live with them, but the squeal was especially irritating yesterdy. Did some Googling and found Lindy Fralin's info on Stewmac ( www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Pickup_building/a-lindyfralin.html) that addresses the tape on the coils with a rubber band. Seems very plausible to me. I wondered if anyone here had ever potted pickups with tape on the coils, and if the rubber band was used, did it work? Moreover, did the tape allow the wax into the coils? Thanks in advance for any response. |
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 17, 2011 11:55:39 GMT -5
Well, all the taped pickup I've seen generally had a cloth type electric tape on them...never a thin plastic tape...but I guess I'm merely dating myself...
The rubber bands do keep the tape in place, but the old cloth tape never really made a seal like it appears your tape does.
SG makes a good point in that the heat from the wax will probably loosen the tape, so the odds are the wax will penetrate, provided you leave the pickup in the wax long enough. I generally waited until the bubble stopped...and added another 10-15 minutes on top of that. If it were me, and I liked the sound of the pickups, I'd go for it.
Is there a chance you could damage them? Sure. God knows what the tape will really do...and most damage I've seen people do after potting pickups is break the coil wire solder connection while cleaning off the excess wax... (I always used a Popsicle stick and an ink pen eraser. If you get most of it off before it completely cools the final cleanup is much easier.) Another intangible is what's under the tape. Lacquer potting generally does little to kill microphonics, and if these are lacquer potted the wax won't have much of a chance to penetrate the coil. But, considering their age, the lacquer may have a few cracks that'll let some of the wax in.
One thing to remember, once you pot these pickups you'll never want to leave the guitar unattended for any time in your car in the summer...
Give it a shot. The odds are in your favor and probably the worst thing that will happen is that the wax may not penetrate 100%...but if you get enough in there to kill the microphonics you're ahead of the game.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but the setup to pot pickups can be a serious fire hazard. Take this as a Surgeon General's warning...or standard disclaimer, but be very careful while you melt the wax, while potting and while the whole affair cools down. And NEVER perform this task on a gas stovetop. Don't laugh...it's happened and I don't need to elaborate on the outcome...
One last thing...don't use any of the wife\significant other's cooking appliances for this...they will be eternally a pickup potting device from the point you start and through the ages...and ignoring this point will introduce an entirely different annoying type of noise...
Good luck.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 17, 2011 12:46:16 GMT -5
Thanks much, O' Cynical One.
My plan is to use a clean metal can inside of a fondue pot with built in coil underneath. Marbles in the bottom of the can to keep the pup at a safe distance from heat source. Stone cover for the bench will be non-flammable. Definitely not rushing on removal from wax. Cleanup on the pups is my biggest concern, because it's something that is universally mentioned as an issue.
I admit to concern about loss of robustness in clean, lower-gain sound, but that's why I have more than one guitar.
Thanks again!
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 17, 2011 12:53:54 GMT -5
I don't think you'll have to worry about a deterioration in the sound after you pot these. If anything, it will improve their sound as you will be eliminating an annoying source of noise from them.
And normally, the pickup is held in suspension in the wax by the wires. The marbles idea is clever, but what do you do later with a bag of wax coated marbles...
Good luck.
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on Apr 17, 2011 14:21:46 GMT -5
^^^^^^ Hey! My steelie just bounced off your marble! WTF?!?!
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Post by KIIMH on Apr 17, 2011 15:59:22 GMT -5
^^^^^^ Hey! My steelie just bounced off your marble! WTF?!?! i do'nt now why but my hearnia is acting up olive a suden ... |
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Post by jcgss77 on Apr 17, 2011 16:53:16 GMT -5
i do'nt now why but my hearnia is acting up olive a suden ... You're in luck! They have an operation for that! |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 17, 2011 21:05:45 GMT -5
^^^^^^ yeah, the operation is called a Smite-o-plasy.  |
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 17, 2011 21:42:14 GMT -5
Amazing how fast a few marbles in a can derails a thread around here....
HTC1
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Post by bigjeelittlo on Apr 17, 2011 22:43:19 GMT -5
...and I'm not even using the marbles any longer. A metal grate is in place under the can. No wax on my marbles.
Anyone know where the parafin is cheap?
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 17, 2011 23:57:04 GMT -5
Generally any grocery store sells canning wax. It comes in a very nondescript box. Look for the mason jars and it'll be in the neighborhood. The beeswax is a bit more problematic. You can buy it on-line, but you'll get stung on the shipping. (pun intended) I would suggest looking for a craft store and head towards the candle making section. Either that, or head to a candle store and buy a beeswax candle. The exact mixture of how much bees wax to paraffin is a matter of debate. Some people will tell you it needs to come from virgin Tibetan honey bees...from the good side of the slope...but honestly anywhere from 80/20 to 50/50 will work. And you're probably going to end up with more of this stuff then you'll ever need to pot 3 pickups. We used to buy the beeswax in bulk. We had so much of the damn stuff we used to melt it and rub it on our boots to waterproof them...as I recall they stopped squealing shortly after that, too... Whatever you use watch the temperature. A candy thermometer works pretty good. Another trick is to take green 3M masking tape (not the cheap crap from Wal-Mart. Go to an auto paint store) and cover the mounting holes and top and bottom bobbins. As long as the temperature doesn't go too high that stuff always stayed on pretty good. It doesn't do anything to speed up the potting, but it can make cleaning the pickup a bit quicker...provided the tape stays on.  This is the good stuff...not to be confused with the cheap stuff.If you use the cheap crap the tape will come off, but the adhesive will happily remain...making the job even more aggravating... Potting pickups isn't a difficult job, just messy and time consuming. Be happy you aren't doing this to a metal covered pickup. Have fun...and be safe... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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