mortis1369
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Post by mortis1369 on Jul 2, 2011 22:59:44 GMT -5
I was thinking about putting together HSH strats with a super 5 way switch, artistic paint jobs, and skull humbucker surrounds and a skull surround for the jack input, as well as the switch. I was wondering what I could sell them for if i did do such a thing. Then I would be able to find out if it would be worth it. Any input is helpful.
Thanks in advance,
mortis
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 2, 2011 23:47:23 GMT -5
That is truly the $64,000.00 question...and there is no easy answer.
Based on your description I would guess you're looking to market this to metal players. Right off the bat you have knocked out most of the guitar buying public by going right for the niche.
So, let's look at the niche. Who's your competition and how do they market to this group? That's your first question.
It's not cast in stone, but metal players generally aren't going to gravitate to a standard Trem-Leo vibrato. You're moving into Floyd Roseish terms with locking nut...not exactly a Strat configuration, but it's been done enough times to fly.
Next, when you say HSH, what type of pickups are you putting into these guitars? High output? Active? Or going the Slash and Yngwie route with low output pickups? And are you going with name brand pickups or OEM pickups? What's the configuration of the switching?
How much in-house building are you going to do? Or, are you just going to buy out the component parts and assemble?
Custom artistic paint jobs? Are we talking airbrush and clear, or are you going for exotic tints and bursts, or are you looking to do multi-colored metallics that change color depending on the light and angle you're looking at it from? Are you doing these yourself or jobbing them out?
The skull rings and switch covers are all over eBay, so they're you're cheapest part.
Finally, how are you going to market these guitars? Advertising and trade shows are the big ticket expenses starting out. You have to spend like the big boys to get a little excitement going. Starting small and selling them on consignment through local shops is the simplest way to go, but not a lot of money in that route unless you're in a major market area and the shop has steady traffic running through it. You could work on finding a rep or distributor, but you're going to have to meet their volumes to justify their interest.
So, what can you tell me about your competition, what they sell for, what components and features they use, and how you can build them cheap enough to compete, or better then or different from to begin to gather a following?
Before you answer any of these questions, can you tell me what your total cost to build is for your design? Once you know what your cost is, and you know what the competition sells them for, then we can start to talk about what you can sell them for.
Sorry for the non-answer answer...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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mortis1369
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by mortis1369 on Jul 3, 2011 16:31:31 GMT -5
lol, i figured i would go through at least one of these... So here goes. I plan on airbrushing them myself. I was considering putting floyd rose bridges in these guitars, but I know I have to modify the body for the bridge itself, I don't know if I will have to modify it to accept the 24 fret board that I need for the floyd rose. for the pickups, I am thinking about using OEM singles and 7.6k neck HB and 8.4k bridge HB (no names, moving up to better pickups as I find out I can sell them.) I do not expect to be able to get a large sum of money, as I have no reputation for building guitars, but I am hoping to get my name our there, then work my way up. The bodies of the guitars, I am going to either just buy or possibly make them, it depends on the quality of the bodies I can purchase. If they look like crap, there is no way I am going to expect other people to be happy with them. Also, a good thing to note is that I will be shielding them with copper tape.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 3, 2011 20:03:26 GMT -5
morty, Look for posts/threads by this guy - jkemmery. He did the same thing you're contemplating... While he hasn't been around for awhile now, his profile is still active. You might be able to reach him via his regular email address, it should be worth a try. See if you can glean from him any words of wisdom....  HTH sumgai |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 3, 2011 20:50:42 GMT -5
About the best deal I could find on an HSH strat was at Guitar Parts Central. Not sure how good these bodies and necks are, but here's a picture  They advertise their price at $145.00 for what you see. Off the top of my head, your looking at another $275.00-$300.00 minimum to get it out the door. More information is available here. They will radius the fretboard and slot it. You'll lose your 24 fret option, but the FR will still work with 21 frets. A little digging around the Internet and you can probably work out a better deal with someone for your bodies and necks. What you can do is try and work out an OEM deal with your vedors. Most larger supply houses will cut you a deal if they know you're building them for resale. Get yourself a tax-exempt number from your State. Incorporation is not necessary to get one, and it's generally a small fee and a long wait for them to set you up. The advantage to this is you pay no tax on the items you buy for resale, or those that are included in your finished product. It also tells the vendors that you are serious and they tend to believe you when you tell them you're an OEM. Be advised, going this way precludes any cash sale business, as you'll need to keep detailed records of all your purchasing. Mr. IRS get's pretty PO'd if the numbers don't jibe out. And you're right, if you're going to put FR trems in these guitars you'll be doing your own routing. The front and rear template sets are under $20.00, so there's no big expense involved with that part. The router will set you back about $150.00-$200.00. Don't go cheap on this, as this is going to be your main squeeze in the shop. Plan on dumping another $100.00 on router bits. Budget pickups are probably a fact of life starting out. Rockfield makes some nice pickups that won't break the bank. A lot of people here rave about the Guitar Fetish pickups. The Wilde (Bill Lawrence) single coils are pretty sweet, and since you're buying direct, and you're going in as an OEM, Bill will work with you. In fact, the Dimebag L500 is a Lawrence design. He still makes them, too. The advantage there is that you're able to offer a known item in the metal world, and get yourself a deal in the process. Again, you may be able to find a supplier that can work with you on all the buy-out parts. The more you commit to buy from them the better deal they can cut you. Now, as far as price. BC Rich, Jackson and Ibanez all offer entry level guitars with OEM parts and pickups ranging from $250.00 to $450.00. That's who you're going up against and what you'll be compared to. Can you build a guitar that can compete in that range and still make you a few coins? Another option is to go the other way and build a better guitar, which will cost more to build, but will sell for more as well. Then there's the salvage option. Find an old Ibanez, Fernandes, Peavey or Epiphone guitar that may have seen it's better day, gut it, paint it, re-tool it and send it out into the fray again, and put a few bucks in your pocket. I made more money on this method then I ever did building them from scratch. There's always a trade some store took in that they can't give away, or a special order that a customer welshed on. As long as the neck is good the rest can be salvaged for the cost of the parts. Another perk to this is that once the guitar is finished you can run it through a consignment with the store you bought it from giving them a chance to make some money back on the deal. Once the shops get a taste of what you can do, and see that your work sells, they'll be calling you with deals on guitars to re-furbish. But back to original question...what are you looking at for your build cost? Normally, to buy all your parts at OEM prices, buy your electronics, hardware, pickups, paint\finish...etc...you're looking at $350.00 to $450.00 for a playable guitar, your cost. The big guys can build it for less as they make it up in volume, plus the can in-house a lot of things in such a quantity that they'll kick your teeth in trying to compete on price alone. Your custom paint, which would probably work best as an on-demand per customer detail, gives you an advantage in that regard. What else did I forget to mention? Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by Yew on Jul 4, 2011 17:27:09 GMT -5
First of all I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE SHOP/SUPPLIER SIDE OF THE MUSIC INDUSTRY
First off I would suggest doing custom paint jobs, I assume you have good skills with your airbrush and other kit? Its a good way to get your skills onto the market, for the cost of a few tins of paint and your time. So if you already have an airbrush and paints, then if it doesnt work out you havent lost much.
second I would get an old/cheap/restore project guitar, and give it a good paintojob, fretwork, and electronics. Then stick your name on the top. Really go to town on the airbrushing, so it looks amazing, and then do some clever wiring so it sounds good. Then I would go to a local shop, and show them it (without telling them you made/refurbished it it) and ask what they think of it. If its good, they might want to purchase some, then you chirp up with how flexible you cna be with designs, hardware, and styles. After all, the local shop knows what sells (or what people try a lot and go somwhere else to buy) So use their experience.
Maybe makign aguitar very special, then offering it to some local bands to play at gigs? a little unconventional, but it could appeal on the local scene (where your guitars get sold)
Dont forget Internet sales, we have a little shop near us that barely has any customers ( I have sat in there for 3 hours and been the only customer) most of its profit comes from its ebay shop.
Please await someone much more experienced me to comment on these ideas before you try it though
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Post by thetragichero on Jul 5, 2011 13:05:52 GMT -5
unfortunately, if it doesn't say fender or ibanez or something similar on the headstock, there's a good chance you won't be able to sell it for what you put into it (even if the quality of your instrument is better)
not trying to poo poo on your plans, but there's a reason why only the big boys are able to charge what they charge
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Post by sumgai on Jul 5, 2011 14:02:48 GMT -5
As with most business plans, it's best to think ahead, and plan on not making a profit for the first five years or so.....
Investing in your dream means that you'll need to have a backup plan (lots of cash in the bank, enough to hold you over for at least a couple of years, if not all five contemplated in the business plan). My take is that if you do this, preferably at breaking even, but even at a slight loss (don't get silly about it), you stand a fair chance of making it... in the long run.
You didn't think that all those "new" buiilders you're finding on the Innerwebs just sprang up out of nowhere, did you? Right. They've been working their butts off for years without end, and are only now putting years and years of labor, sweat, tears and experience out in the public for all to see (and hopefully purchase).
Even for metal-heads, that's still true. As TTH so adroitly put it, name brand recognition is the single most difficult obstacle for you to overcome. The best way to do that - become your own name brand. The market is big enough, there's always room for one more, so stake your claim, work it, and reap the rewards. But remember, even Leo had to worry about Gibson, back when he started out. And look where his company is today!! (Don't look where he is, you don't wanna go there just yet!)
Hmmm.....
It was twenty years ago today,
That Leo Fender passed away.
And even after all that while,
I can still recall with a smile,
Mr. Fender's beautiful electric guitaaaaaar!
Alright, who's been monkeying around with my meds....
HTH
sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 5, 2011 22:19:01 GMT -5
sg, as always, succinctly puts the crux of it right out there in fewer words then I could... Judicial is!
The best way into the local shops is to start by offering them something they can't do in house. Custom paint jobs are a big one for local shops.
If they just give you a referral throw them something for their trouble.
Once they get to know you then start hedging on your completed guitars.
Like someone mentioned earlier, find some of the bigger local acts and get one of your guitars in their hands. Who knows, they may even buy it from you. Buy them a few beers and they might even give you a plug or two during the gig. Musicians always watch other musicians to see what they're doing... Either way, get your work out there.
Repairs are another good way in. Most shops have a good tech...usually the owner...and if you can take some of the weight off his shoulders, and allow him to make a buck in the process it can be a way in with your guitars. Turn the repair around in half the time for less then you quoted and word will get around.
Another point sg made is the expense in getting a shop going. To do it right is your beer money for a decade... Each guitar sold allows you to expand the inventory, and expand what you are able to do in the shop. I spent 20 years building up tools and equipment and there were still things on my wish list.
Craig List, State surplus auctions and websites, sheriff's auctions, estate sales, to name a few, are a good way to get top of the line tools for bargain basement prices.
And five years is a good rule of thumb for determining if you're going to make it or not. By then you either love it or hate it and the decision is an easy one to make whether to continue or not.
Got a name for this little venture yet?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Jul 6, 2011 2:44:02 GMT -5
Another point sg made is the expense in getting a shop going. To do it right is your beer money for a decade... Actually, that's experience talking. Banks want two things from you before they'll even talk to you, let alone give you a loan application to fill out: 1) Evidence that someone else believes in your idea/scheme/plot. Even a family member will work for this, so long as there's a written contract between you and him/her/them; and 2) A business plan. Plans laid out for less than 5 years will be shown to the door, albeit with courtesy, and an invitation to please try again in a few months. To expand: A contract with anyone should be old enough for at least one or two payments to have been made. Written records are an unqualified necessity for this to be believable by the bank. Also, a business plan must consist of more than a) build guitars b) wait for customers c) ? ? ? d) profit!! If you need help here, there are bookoo websites with example plans, or you can find good books at the library, bookstore, etc. From all this, I've learned that sometimes you have to take your hat in your hand, and go ask for financial help. Do this correctly, and you could get ahead of the game. Better to have lower expectations, time-wise, and to finance it all out of your own pocket. In fact, just plan on no more beer until you can afford to sit back and hoist a glass of bubbly in celebration of your hundredth sale - that'd be my plan.  HTH sumgai |
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mortis1369
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Post by mortis1369 on Jul 6, 2011 23:23:30 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for the advice. I was planning on using ebay as an ally on this one. I found several providers (albeit they are in china) that have the parts that I need to build them from scratch. Again, I don't know if any modification is necessary to fit a 24 fret neck onto a strat style body, but that is something I intend to find out. As for my costs, they come to right around 350 dollars for all my parts. My plans were to resell them on ebay, bring them to local guitar shops, and offer to build guitars for local bands as I know a few of them personally. Hopefully I would be able to convince them to buy them and give me a shout out at their shows, which would also improve my odds of getting more sales. Granted, if it all worked out, I would end up being extremely taxed for time, but if I was making enough profit off my guitars, then I would be able to quit my day job and live my life as a custom guitar vendor.... but that would come later. For the time being, I guess it will be an experiment. lol. But I will also list one on here, and see what ya'll think and if anyone buys it. Keep an eye out (granted it will be about a month or so before I can build it to my specs, got a lot of bills... lol), but when I do, I want everyone's honest opinion on it.
mortis
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Post by sumgai on Jul 7, 2011 1:59:11 GMT -5
I was planning on using ebay as an ally on this one. eBay is not your friend. Or to be more accurate, it's not the friend of your wallet. When the old saying "nickel and dime you to death" was coined, that person was talkin about eBay. Did you not mention the word 'quality' in a previous post? But worse: $350 - - for Chinese parts?  You'd be better off applying for the drummer's job with Spinal Tap! Let me ask you sumpin'...... do you really, in your heart of hearts, believe that Fender spends even close to 350 smackers to built a $1200 Stratocaster (MSRP)? I hate to sound derogatory here, but I detect a serious disconnect between your current business plan, and your wallet. Hang on a second, I'm gonna place a call to Jimmy the Greek in Las Vegas, and see what the book is on how long you're gonna be in business..... OK, now that I've had my fun at your expense, let me get serious. Please, for the luvva Gawd, shop around. Invest wisely, not rashly. Being led to believe that you're getting a screaming good deal is not the same thing as actually getting it, capische? In fact, here's a little "reinforcement" video for ya, courtesy of Smokey Robinson, about 29 years ahead of your time..... (Albeit I personally like the Captain & Tenille version better, but she changed the lyrics to fit her gender, and that wouldn't play well in this context...) The very first thing you're gonna find out is that the Neck pickup has to move towards the bridge. Normally, it sits under the strings at the same position where the 24th fret would be found.... IOW, at the second octave point. Moving that pup will affect the overall tone, as it will be sitting under a different set of harmonic nodes. Just something to consider....  See my pertinent replies above. At this stage of the game, absolutely nothing will beat personal endorsements. Jump on this avenue of opportunity, and ride it for all you're worth. Hmmm, I don't recall every hearing of any endorsers who paid for their stuff. Consider it part of your advertising budget - that's what the big boys do. We should all be so lucky to be taxed like this! OK, that's enough of my snide remarks.... but I hope that helps! sumgai |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 7, 2011 17:59:38 GMT -5
I would have to agree with sg again. $350.00 for all Chinese parts is a bit steep.
Try this. Find a list of the middle sized builders out there and see if they have CNC equipment.
Drop them an e-mail, explain your scenerio, and see if they'll sell you cut, but unfinished bodies and necks. You'll be sanding your little fingers off, but the savings will pay for more then enough callous remover.
You can take any grade wood they have, as you'll be painting the bodies anyway. Poplar is cheap for them to buy, easy to machine for them, kind to their tooling and easier for you to sand out to a prefinish state.. It also takes a finish well without a lot of grain filling.
They may even cut your body blanks for a flat fee. The market is down for all of these guys, so a little private off label work to keep the cash flow up probably won't be turned away.
The advantage to the CNC route is that once you pay a setup charge it's a flat rate for all of the bodies they run. It wouldn't surprise me if the wood wound up costing you more then the machining with a large enough quantity. And once the paint is on who's gonna know? Most guitars are cut on a CNC machined anyway.
If you've never seen the process, it looks like this:
Prime example. I found a guy in WV, who has vaporized within the last year, that would sell CNC'd Tele and Strat necks, shaped, slotted for frets and nut, with a truss rod and skunk stripe, one piece maple for $35.00 shipped. Sanded, radiused, fretted, nut and tuners installed and finished by you and the same neck sells for $175.00-$200.00. Even with the parts you buy out that still puts and extra $80.00 to $100.00 in your pocket.
As sg mentioned, the first thing you'll find with 24 fret necks is the difference in scale. Strats are 25.5" scale and normally 24 fret necks are 24.75" scale. The bridge will move, or you'll be recutting the neck pocket to accommodate the difference in scale.
Also, most 24 fret necks are square at the heel, and most have a lip extension past the heel. These will not drop right into Strats. And the whole pickup relocation issue rears its ugly head as well.
Why not move towards a Super Strat body style? It's not like the concept is unheard of and doesn't already sell well.
And giving away the demo units is part of the game. If you really want to sell them, send them out as loaners. Sometimes you can get your cost back if the guy really likes it, but for the most part it's just the cost of doing business.
And one thing I will caution you about Chinese parts in a production setting. In the cheaper knock off or OEM range the quality is all over the place, and delivery can be sporadic. The few coins you save may not justify the issues you will encounter.
I would approach Bill and Becky Lawrence at Wilde pickups and see if they'll work with you as a new builder. Their consistency is legendary, the quality is well known plus they're made in the USA. And the shipping cost savings will offset most of your alleged savings in going offshore.
I would caution you in trying to go too cheap in the components. Working musicians may not be the most tech saavy bunch out there, but it's got to hold up. The neck, tuners, nut, frets and bridge need to take a licking every week or they're out of business.
Remember the old adage. Do something right and the customer will tell 3-5 people. Do something wrong and he'll tell 20-30 people. Keeping customers is easier and cheaper then finding new ones.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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You'd be better off applying for the drummer's job with Spinal Tap!