A hopefully small request: HH design

[reTrEaD]

Dec 2, 2011 15:00:13 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I predict that in a few more years, you'll be singing a different tune.

Trust me, no one wants that. Ever accidentally step on your cat's tail? That's kinda what it sounds like when I sing.

[cynical1]

Dec 2, 2011 15:20:41 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

...Ever accidentally step on your cat's tail?...

Well, I told the cat it was an accident...

HTC1

[Runewalker]

Dec 2, 2011 8:45:04 GMT -5 asmith said:

what's Rune's opinion on where he's going with this? No OoP, buffer instead?

Well I was enjoying the scatological patter, but I think I mentioned earlier that I could give up the OoP on this chassis as it is going metal (fat strings, dropped D or maybe even C) .... no place for thin, anemic girly OoP sounds in a metalmachine.

Although I scanned things quickly. I thought I read someone say the humenhansing feature was only in play with the Bridge and Neck singles selected, partially in play with one single and the other humcancelling (S or P), and not in effect when both are humcancelling.

So in that light I though about reconsidering, but I have not played with the buffer in a while and think I will go that direction --- with an on/off PP.

One of these days I will do the dummy coil experiment but this beast has little cavity real estate, and what is there will get occupied by a battery.

Thanks to all. I was entertained that this simple idea generated this much traffic.

RW

[reTrEaD]

This thread seemed to generate a lot of interest for a while but now it's circling the drain before the specifics have been ironed out. Let's see if we can give it a nudge and get the ball rolling again.

Nov 29, 2011 8:40:32 GMT -5 asmith said:

This all seems relatively "modular" - no "binary switching" or anything like that. Something has something working on it, then something else works on that module and another module, then something else works on... etc.

That's a good approach. One of the first tasks is to look at the overall configuration and determine what modules are needed, and how to design the overall architecture of to minimize any undesirable interactions and maximize the "user-friendliness" of the controls. So basically we revisit the specifications, look at the pros and cons different ways of implementing each "module" and the order they fall in the signal chain, and come up strategy for the entire chain, as well as for each module.

When a project is being "designed by committee", there is a tendency to lose sight of the overall objectives when taking time to discuss the details of specific parts. I think having a process helps. In addition to tracking our progress, it keeps us from moving too far in the wrong direction.

Generic design process:

• 1 - Define the specifications.
  
• 2 - Make a block diagram of the overall system.
  
• 3 - Refine the elements (modules) to fit the system.
  
• 4 - Create a schematic.
  
• 5 - Determine the physical layout of the controls as they sit in the chassis.
  
• 6 - Create a wiring diagram.

Atm, we're partially through the process of defining the specs. We're constrained by the number of holes in the chassis, and decisions about how to best use them. So let's review where we are. I'll probably miss something, so chime in if you see something I didn't.

• 2 Pickups - 4wire HB, unknown color codes, not yet determined which coils will be used when split.
  
• 2 volume controls, PP on each.
  
• Master tone control (single pot after volume control, 2-gang pot before volume controls, or dual concentric before volume controls.)
  
• "Mini pickup selector"
  
• 2 minitoggle DPDT on-on-on for pickup mode (series/split/parallel)
  
• System series switch (neck volume PP)
  
• Buffer on/bypass (Bridge volume PP)
  

Here's the first draft of the block diagram, subject to change as the specs are finalized.



Re: Pickups
At some point we will need to know what make each pickup is, if a magnet has been flipped and whether the flip has been done on the neck or the bridge. Runewalker will need to decide before we get too far along. But the one thing we DO know is that one of the pickups needs to split to its north coil and the other needs to split to its south coil.

Re: Pickup mode switches.
I think it would be beneficial, in the long run, to draw these in schematic form, in addition to the wiring diagram form they are currently in. ie: where poles look like arrows and throws look like circles. The advantage to schematics is that they look more like what they do. You don't have to imagine what goes on inside a switch represented by a box.

Re: Volume controls
Treble bypass network?

Re: Tone control(s)
Newey voiced a negative opinion about a single tone control. This is worthy of a little discussion. Having one tone control means it come after the two volume controls. Having a tone control downstream from volume control(s) leads to the tone-cut being strongly affected by the setting of volume control(s). If you set the tone control with the volume(s) at max, the tone-cut becomes much more severe as the volume(s) are rolled back. If you set the tone control with the volume rolled back, the tone-cut becomes less as the volume control(s) are turned up.

In light of that, the block diagram shows two tone controls before the volume controls. But this is not etched in stone. It would be very easy to make a change, while we are at the block diagram step in the process.

Concentric or Ganged?
Having a single knob, ganged is simpler to operate.
Concentric leads to more flexibility, particularly in the system series mode.
Fortunately, this decision won't need to be finalized until the actual build. The backside of the pots looks exactly the same. The only difference is that ganged has a single knob. We should design around concentric, so we know which section (neck or bridge) is controlled by the outer knob (section closest to the mounting panel).

Re: Selector
This module consists of a 3way switch and a DPDT (push-pull). But I'm not sure what "Mini pickup selector" (Runewalker) means. Is this just a physically smaller version of a Gibson switch? Or is it a DPDT on-on-on minitoggle wired to achieve the same function? Or something else?

The PP will probably be wired so that pulled=system parallel. But needs to be confirmed.

Re: Buffer
This is one of JohnH's designs. No doubt there is already a schematic and wiring diagram on the board somewhere.

Re: Buffer bypass switch.
Since this is a DPDT push-pull, we can use one pole to chose whether the output jack connects to the passive signal that comes out of the Selector (pushed) or the output of the buffer (pulled).

The second pole will connect the (+) of the battery only when the buffer is being used. However, this pole is not absolutely necessary. If we need it to do some other function, we can rely on the ring connection of the output jack to connect the (-) of the battery only when the guitar has a cable plugged into it.




Moving forward
This thread is likely to become rather lengthy. This is a project of moderate complexity and we have special circumstances. It is an opportunity for teamwork as well an opportunity for someone to hone their skills. Since TS is a member who has limited technical knowledge, we need to get clarification on many of the details as we move along. Unlike a situation where the requestor is technically proficient, we can't just contribute pieces and let the requestor put all the pieces together himself. The final schematic and wiring diagram will be drawn by one of you Nutz. I'll suggest that in addition to posting in this thread, a new thread be made in the Schematics board by the member who creates those drawings. I'm not really interested in making the drawings, but am willing to advise and offer suggestions. Volunteers?

[roadtonever]

Love the block diagram.

[newey]

reTread-

That is a great discussion of process, and one that can be more generally employed.

But the last post from RW sounded like he was running off to build the project, using the asmith diagram but with a buffer added at the end of the chain. Or so I thought, seems like he said "thanks" and signed off from the thread.

We may need to await clarification from Rune as to where he is with this, and what help he needs, if any, going forward.

[reTrEaD]

Okay Newey, maybe you're right. I had the impression from his first post that he didn't have the ability to piece the whole thing together. But his last post does seem like he signed off, now that I look at it again.

[JohnH]

Dec 17, 2011 0:32:35 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Okay Newey, maybe you're right. I had the impression from his first post that he didn't have the ability to piece the whole thing together. But his last post does seem like he signed off, now that I look at it again.

Hey, you talkin' about the Runewalker! The architect of the Mighty HBD......

....The Mighty HBD.....

....a man we know well, who may well know more than he knows that he knows.

[Runewalker]

Gents: 

What do they call this resurrection of old posts? Necroposting? So be it.  How about Lazarus Tree?

I have been away for a while, on the road 4 days a week – way too much familiarity with airline seats. Traveling has cut into playing time significantly. I decided I wanted a rig I could travel in a business suit with. You got it -- biddness suit, ugh.

I picked up a cheaper than cheap knock off of a Steinberger Spirit because it is substantially shorter than a conventional guitar --- and I can slip it on-board into the upper bins (with a few evil looks).



That's right, that high-in-demand elusive "K-Tone." (those who know my otherworld last name will get a chuckle out of "K"-Tone).


(As an aside I travel between Austin and Nashville a lot and see guitarists with their axes frequently carry on into the plane. Too many acoustics and those are big suckerrods.)

Not impressed with the bridge but the neck is serviceable, the frets are medium jumbos, action is capable of being dialed in, and surprisingly the pups are not bad (but will be replaced, of course). Electronics? Standard HH, with a Tele style 3 way.

Tight, tight, tight cavity (see below), which will limit mods because I want something fast and do not plan on any woodwork, except maybe reducing thickness of the cavity base if the pot bushings are short.



I thought about a “Freeway” switch. There is one configuration which gives my preferred combos. But in the end I realized the array discussed in this thread gives more flexibility.

The thread went a little scatological, but ReThread brought it back with a disciplined design plan. Then I was sucked back into biddness. 

So to restate the objectives:

• HH
• 3 way Pup Selector
  
• A DPDT On-On-On for each Humbucker yielding Local Series – Single – Parallel.
• A System Series DPDT.
• Concentric pots giving a volume control to each Humbucker
• A dual ganged pot for the Tone control.
• No OoP.
• The cut coils should be arrayed so when the 3-way is in middle position that they are humcancelling. Since only one coil will be active on each humbuckers will be physically arranged to make the two inner coils active.

Earlier in the thread asmith mentioned this was a “modular” design. However, I also noted that I am an idiot on the theory of these schemes. So I can draw up wiring diagrams and do the technician surgery and suturing, but don’t know how these modules are properly connected.

So that is the question for this Lazarus post:

Can you knowledgeable gents help me on “connecting the dots” so I can “paint by numbers”?

[/URL]"]

I did the mock-up wiring referencing the ‘modules’ posted earlier in the thread, although I am not sure I used the right one on the Series/Single/Parallel switches.

You will probably ask about the dual gang pot with the push pull switch.

This from Mouser claims those functions:

Dual Gang with DPDT

Mouser tech support says it is indeed a dual gang with a PP. The picture is different.
If not it means somehow forcing another DPDT in an already tight array, or option B. I will discuss that if this pot does not have the DPDT switch.

Thank you....

RW

[JohnH]

Hi RW good to hear from you. How deep would that dual gang pp be and would it fit? also see pm
cheers
J

[newey]

Rune-

Welcome Back! I see that what started as an LP project has morphed into a travel guitar build. Such is the Way of the Nutz . . .

I started a thread a while back musing about a guitar for airline carry-on use:

Carry-on guitar

The end result was that I bought a Hofner travel guitar. Which, of course, got modded as described here:

Hofner Travel Guitar mods

Of course, as yours is HH, you have many more modding options. JohnH mentions a PM, and I'm guessing here, but I suspect he may have pointed you in the direction of his LPx design, and advised using the tone pots to do the coil cuts as opposed to a switch. This would mean using a concentric pot for the tones as well as for the volumes, but would eliminate some switching and potentially solve the depth issue.

As an aside, the pictures of the switches you posted show the 3-way pickup selector switch as if it were a single pole switch; if it is truly a Tele-style 3-way lever switch (as it appears to be), then the wiring will be somewhat different, since the Tele switch is a DP3T (and uses both poles). So, we probably need to re-depict that switch to avoid confusion later on.

[Runewalker]

John and Newey:

Thanks for looking and responding. In terms of being back, I never really leave as I visit pretty often, it is just that wiring and modding have taken a back seat to working for a living - Who the he|| came up with that idea, anyway?

Newey, I remember that travel guitar discussion and made some mental notes about it. But I did want the full HH and did not want the extra headstock inches. My Stats are about 39", I have a Dillion PRS style that is about 37" and the headless is a shade over 30". Playing it reminds me of Leslie West in his 400 lb Mountain Days when his axe was a Les Paul Jr that looked like a toothpick against his mass. I am not that wide, but at 6'2" and 240lbs this sucker looks about as silly as possible when strapped on. Remarkably, it plays really well and even with the stock pups the bass is better than expected, and they are hot enough I can squeeze out some Zakk Wild stupid harmonics.

Newey notes this thread started as a discussion on correcting one of my first mods, an ESP/Ibanez FrankenPaul (HH) that needed revising. While the idea is now being applied to the new headless and nearly bodyless travel guitar (a concession to always being on the road for biddness) the design features are nearly identical. On the ESP/Ibby I was adding John’s buffer circuit, just because I had the room and always wanted to. That will not be possible on the headless.

When thinking about the limited cavity real estate on the “K-Tone” (don’t be jealous) I was wishing for a dual gang PP and stumbled across one in Mouser. The Mouser stock pix do not show the actual part, but correspondence from Son-O to Mouser confirms it is a dual gang with a DPDT PP. John’s question about how big is that sucker is the same one I have, with the inferred question of will it fit in the cavity with the back lid on?
I am going to order one to physically examine it.

Here are the questions and answers - Mouser to Son-O:

Is PDB183-GTR21-504A2 a:

500K DualGanged Potentiometer=two pots stacked with separate solder lugs YES
With a push pull switch YES
Audio Taper YES
Shorter Shaft than the GTR3 pots. YES
All correct?

On the Tele switch question, Newey, I spent no time on actually looking at the switch since I was planning to pull it, put in new 4 conductor pups, then install the three on-on-on mini switches – one for the pup selector, one each for the humbucker’s Local Series/Single/Parallel. If the dual gang/PP is not workable I will either forgo the System Series option or explore whether I can somehow shove one more mini toggle on-on into the space shared with the other three minis.

I go back on the road Jan. 6, so I was planning on building during the few days I have off before banging the road again --- hopefully with axe in tow.

It will be kind of funny to see me in bidness regalia, axe strapped and sharing the terminal space with all the C&W and “singer-songwriter” crews traversing between Austin and Nashville and back. Incongruous, guaranteed. I have spoken to many of them to understand the mechanics of carrying a guitar on board. Many times the cabin crew with stuff an axe up in the cabin crews closet, apparently.

Don’t worry; I refuse to wear skinny jeans, because I care too much for humanity to expose them to that.

(as and aside - I will also eventually post my road solution on amps, since I will not be hauling a Marshal stack)

RW

[newey]

RW- Yeah, sorry, I forgot you were replacing the 3-way switch.

I get some looks in airports with the Hofner, as it looks remarkably like some sort of short-barreled firearm in its gigbag. But the bag has an embroidered "Hofner" logo on it, so guitarists ask me about it all the time. One guy even had me pull it out of the gigbag on a crowded jetway in Charleston SC so he could see it.

As mentioned in the travel git thread, I looked at the Steinberger Spirit line as an option, but I couldn't see $300 for something I wanted to knock around. I don't think I came across the "K-Line" brand at the time. The Hofner does have the advantage that it can be played on one's knee, although I usually use a strap anyway as it is a bit unbalanced.

Size of that dual-gang P/P pot will be the limiting factor here, I think. Do you need a full diagram of this, RW?

I was going to ask the amp question as well. I have a little battery-powered Orange Micro-crush which works OK, but I'm not enamored with the sound of it. Of course, the 4" speaker is a limiting factor.

[ux4484]

Dec 27, 2013 17:05:35 GMT -5 newey said:

I get some looks in airports with the Hofner, as it looks remarkably like some sort of short-barreled firearm in its gigbag. But the bag has an embroidered "Hofner" logo on it, so guitarists ask me about it all the time.

Dec 27, 2013 12:22:45 GMT -5 Runewalker said:

“K-Tone” (don’t be jealous)

These two comments reminded me that Ktone is also the maker of the machine gun bass:
Not even worth the trouble of TRYING to bring into an airport.

[Runewalker]

Yeah ux4484, I am not ready to test the TSA with a K-Tone Bushmaster, .

I am sure you all wish you had an Ebay $127 K-Tone-machine, but ooo-la-la I have mine and ya gotta getchures!

I am with you Newey on the $300 Spirit. I though seriously about it (forget about the real Steinberger - mucho deniro), I would have to mod it as well then we are talking about $4-500, and that exceeds the limit by a couple of factors.

Newey:
Size of that dual-gang P/P pot will be the limiting factor here, I think. Do you need a full diagram of this, RW?

I think John is gonna help me connect the dots. I can take his pointers and do a dress wiring diagram. Ifn you guys want me to write it up as a post in the schematics I will need some help on an electronic schematic. I want to try to build in the next week or so and can post finished pictures, I hope.

I want to do as much as I can on the renderings because you guys do so much for every one.

Newey: I was going to ask the amp question as well. I have a little battery-powered Orange Micro-crush which works OK, but I'm not enamored with the sound of it. Of course, the 4" speaker is a limiting factor.

I am finalizing a solution and will post when I am satisfied. It may be an intriguing solution for the other folks who need portable play.




Thanks
RW

[newey]

I see that K-Tone makes a clear Lucite one for $250. The original Dan Armstrong Lucite guitars were made from that so as to be denser than wood for supposedly better sustain, so given the tiny size of the Steinberger-ish body perhaps a denser body is a plus with these.

Anyway, RW, if JH has your back on this, we'll let him do his thing . . .

Looking forward to the finished project. As you saw from my mod thread, there's not a lot one can do with only one lonely single coil, but the GFS Dream 90 is definitely a keeper. So I went with an Esquire-type of switching, which is actually pretty versatile tonally on this little bugger.

[JohnH]

Yes, RW has sent me his Word diagram, which is how I draw them too. Wiring layout is almost done.

RW - I hope you like the look of Italian food (or Californian freeway design)!
J

[Runewalker]

Dec 27, 2013 23:12:57 GMT -5 newey said:

I see that K-Tone makes a clear Lucite one for $250. The original Dan Armstrong Lucite guitars were made from that so as to be denser than wood for supposedly better sustain, so given the tiny size of the Steinberger-ish body perhaps a denser body is a plus with these.

Ah yes, back to Tone Plastic. Yes I thought about that lucite one for this travel guitar, and your notion of density is spot on --- I certainly experienced it significantly in:

Lucy

However, I did not want to pay the extra $123 bucks and wanted it light for ... travel...

That acrylic in the link is incredibly heavy. Got it on a lark for $109. I plan on tricking it out with a humbucker and all chrome all the time .... including the pickgard. It is so heavy it will be more of a novelty guitar, but no reason it can't play and sound great.

[Runewalker]

Update

Ok, making some progress working with JH on the spaghetti bowl wiring. Have developed the pup switching map.

I also found the dimensions of the odd ball dual ganged pot with a DPDT PP. It is 1.8" (45.2mm)tall. Since most bods that are not Les Pauls are 1.75" this will present some challenges to have a flat back. I could either:

• make some kind of custom back plate that bulges out to accommodate the extra tallness,
• go without a backplate (not preferred),
• cover it with Gorilla black tape (funky) or
• abandon the tall switch, go with a conventional dual gang or another concentric for the tone and try to wedge another mini DPDT in a very tight cavity.

We'll see. Mouser order should be here tomorrow.

RW

[JohnH]

Another choice might be to abandon the dual gang tone pot, and use a single pot with dpdt after the main switch, right at the output. I don't like it but there are plenty of V's (and Explorers?) out there that have that position, with 2V 1T.

If it was mine, Id do a 2x dual concentric version of my LP, which does not have local parallel and gets the single sounds straight from the tone pots. So all you'd have is the main toggle and one dpdt for system S/P. I have a phase as well.

LP Modular wiring

[Runewalker]

Uhhhh ... confession here. I did not look closely at the dimensional drawing of the dual ganged pot with the DPDT switch. I took the total measurement instead of the measurement sans the shaft. Duh.

The body is only 26.2mm +- .05mm - slightly over and inch. The cavity can accommodate that, so we are fine with using that component.

I did think about the dual concentric version you mentioned but actually wanted the Local Parallel options. JH I think I remember from previous thread discussions that you were at one time lukewarm about the Local Parallel option. I tend toward hotter pickups in these multi option wiring options, albeit there is a place for PAF style humbuckers. My experience is that the Local Parallel gives a nice approximation of a PAF if the pups are in the hot range, say 1.5K to 16K in DC resistance (notwithstanding the discussion that DC resistance is only one factor affecting "hotness"). With more vintage style humbuckers the Local Parallel option is anemic and does not combine well with the Local Series humbucker in combos.

In addition to the Local Parallel option with a hotter wound pup the single coil is also a little louder to keep up with one of my favorite settings: Local Series Bridge in System Parallel or Series with Neck Single.

So giving up Local Parallel is a loss for me. I could argue this is a travel guitar and does not need all those options, but if I can I may as well. Most of the playing on this will be on headphones and subtle tonal differences are more easily heard through headphone drivers --- not that the word subtle is frequently associated with me.

[newey]

I could argue this is a travel guitar and does not need all those options, but if I can I may as well.

This is Guitarnutz2. Yer preachin' to the choir . . .

I'm with you on the parallel HB coils, I just like the sound in general, regardless of "hot wound" HBs or not. On my Strat with the bridge twin "lipstick tubes", the HB is not "hot" at all, and the parallel HB approximates a single coil sound, but is hum-cancelling. With the lower-output HBs, the parallel option makes more sense than coil splitting.

[Runewalker]

Ok, John gave me the point to point, and I adjusted the rendering some:



Do you see anything out of place or that I am missing?

Pickup map below.

Thanks
RW

Pup Map

[Runewalker]

corrected the first posting of the Pickup Map. John pointed out to me that on the Local pickup switches that "Up" is Series not Parallel. I had the labels reversed.

John frequently in your designs when a system Series switch is engaged it throws the circuit into the combos, irrespective of where the Pickup selector is. Does your point to point also do that?

Thanks
RW

[JohnH]

Jan 1, 2014 14:13:22 GMT -5 Runewalker said:

John frequently in your designs when a system Series switch is engaged it throws the circuit into the combos, irrespective of where the Pickup selector is. Does your point to point also do that?

Thanks
RW

Yes it does. If you follow the red wire from jack to the S1 main toggle, you can see that the output always and only comes from the toggle centre lug. When you pull the S/P switch, the orange and blue wires going from there to the toggle get joined, which connects the two outer toggle lugs together. Therefore, the toggle has all its lugs joined in series mode and it position becomes insignificant. Is that how you would prefer it?

I have always drawn it that way since it seems better to be able to use the toggle as a preset for parallel mode so you can go from whatever your parallel or single choice is, straight to series with one flick. But on my Gibbo LP, the S/P switch is on the rear switch cover, so its not for operation mid song. So instead, I left it so that, when set to series, the main toggle can get the series mode and also the bridge alone, to keep more options on the front controls.

[Runewalker]

Completed design sprung from this thread.

HH3

RW