~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 1, 2012 10:06:17 GMT -5
Yeash! The top two threads are both mine now. Guess I yack too much... So I've been toying around with slide a bit lately on an old ('63 I think) Silvertone Kay. The frets are shot on it (as are the tuners, nut, bridge assembly, and pick guard ), and I'm not going to pay someone to re-fret this thing. So I figured it would make a decent dedicated slide guitar. After having played on it a bit I've decided I'd like to raise the nut a hair (just enough to make the slide playing a tad easier, but still low enough to fret rhythm parts). I have a pre-slotted Gibson nut that's been wandering about in my tool box for years. So I thought I'd go ahead and swap them out. The trouble is that the fretboard on this Kay is about 5/16" thick. My replacement nut is exactly the same height, so it wouldn't even clear the fretboard. So I guess I'm curious as to how I should go about shimming this thing to make it work. Maybe file the old nut down and use it to lift the new one? I'm assuming I won't need to file the slots on this replacement , since I'm using it for slide. Any suggestions as to how high I should go with it? At least a hint on a good starting point anyway? If it makes a difference I've been playing mostly with open E tuning, occasionally employing a capo for open A. Thanks in advance for any advice!
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 1, 2012 18:55:44 GMT -5
Well, you can go through all that agony if you want to, but there is a simple, cheap and effective way to setup any guitar as a slide guitar...and it's easily reversible: It's called a slide guitar nut extension. Stew-Mac has them for under $4.00...and if Stew-Mac sell them for under $4.00 you can probably get them for $2.50 in any half way decent music shop. The look like this: Make your life easier. Over-engineering is. Happy Trails Cynical One
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 1, 2012 21:15:44 GMT -5
I saw those at StewMac's site actually. It just seems like way too much action for fretting. A few comments I ran across on the net indicated that they were better for lap-style playing than anything else. So I'm considering it a last resort. For now I think I'll go with using the original nut to shim the new one. seems like the easiest and most practical solution. I have some shims left over from my LSR nuts. So I'm thinking I can just set the new nut at an average height, then shim it up slowly from there until I find what works for me. I'll start a new thread later this year when I refurbish this thing. Should be an interesting project. Thanks Cyn1!
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Post by 4real on Feb 1, 2012 21:24:29 GMT -5
How high is it now, are you sure that you cant just raise the bridge significantly?
Slide works well with heavier or string suitable for the tuning as well, if you are going up a gauge your nut is likely to require re-slotting to suit and there is no going back. Why not treat yourself to a new nut and sand the back till it is a suitable hight for your gauge ans style of play.
Shimming the nut a touch, anything would do as long as the slot remains deep enough, a high action at the nut may make fretted play near impossible to be in tune. Thin wood is fine, the nut is sitting on wood anyway...credit cards are always popular too.
....
For inspiration check out this guy's videos...amazing tone from a junk yard strat (came up when researching the trilogy) and this is in open E... a real junkyard guitar and map guy but an amazing tone
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 1, 2012 23:16:38 GMT -5
How high is it now, are you sure that you cant just raise the bridge significantly? I've been toying with the bridge height, and have it raised a good bit. Again - trying to find that sweet spot where I can slide my leads and fret my rhythm parts when necessary. The current nut has the low E sitting just shy of .03" above the first fret (about .0295" by my feeler gauge). I didn't measure the high E, and I have no clue what the bridge height is at this point. I just sort of feel like I've done everything I can with the bridge at this point, and need a touch more height at the nut to keep me from knocking the frets around with the slide. When/if I develop a better technique I would lower it back down I suppose. If it were any other guitar I'd go ahead and take it to the shop and have a new nut cut for it. But this is a beat up Silvertone that was rescued from a dumpster. I'm going to need to replace everything on it to get it in decent playing condition. I just can't seem to justify having a new nut cut for it before I've even begun to refurbish it. Besides - my $$ needs to go to finishing my other two Strat projects first. I think that's what I'll do. Just use a rasp to file the top (slots) off the old nut, and use that to elevate the new nut high enough to get over the thickness of the fretboard. Then I can seat the new nut at about the current height (a bit high, I know - but...), and shim it up from there. That will make fine-tuning the height easier, and I'll be able to drop it down when/if I ever develop a lighter touch with the slide. Very cool vid! I loved that thing he was doing with the harmonics at the beginning. You're right about the tone too. I'm hoping a new set of P90's with a series/parallel switch will get me a diversity of tones on this guitar. I've never played with P90's, so I'm anxious about it. But wait... Finish the Strats. Finish the Strats. Finish the Strats...
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Post by 4real on Feb 2, 2012 0:07:18 GMT -5
Well...hmmm...I wouldn't be shaving down the old nut, generally a new nut is way of height anyway. Without seeing it...plus I like most of the world think metric...just saying. My perception is that you would be relying too much on that glue join.
If concerned about getting the old nut out (something that you really need to do to even do what you are suggesting) then perhaps this is a time to try. As you don't want to have a trem on a slide guitar (if it has one, disable it) then really a cheap plastic nut would do the job off of ebay for a couple of bucks...literally...or a local music store if there are any left.
Perhaps a pic of the nut and action.
A good stout set of strings...that guy uses a set...
A 15 on the high e is way stiff, you are not likely to hit the frets with this kind of thing...plus...it will bend the neck I am sure raising the action. I'd be wary of going that stiff if the neck is dodgy, but even a 12 is not likely to hit the frets, if so, change your slide technique.
Try adjusting the bridge up as far as possible first, see how that goes I'd suggest.
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P-90's are single coils, good gritty sound. You will notice this guy just stuck one pickup in the centre. I personally think that noiseless is a good thing...I've noticed there are a few more budget stacked p-90s available and I'd be tempted by that kind of thing.
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That guy is impressive and it is worth checking out his other videos. His guitar was saved from a dumpster and often uses odd little amps and such and gets a great tone.
Here's another, a beatles tune with a touch of 'looper'...
ON this he is using flatwound strings...
Something to consider and they will last a long time and not be so scratchy. Notice too that he is in "open D' and this is something I would favour really, thicker strings and tune the guitar down...perhaps capo on the 2nd fret if you need E tuning.
The other thing to consider is that if you go nuts with a high nut, you are really going to limit your ability to use a capo and this can be important with open tunings if you use those open strings. If you have a high action at the nut action, when you clap a capo on you are going to throw everything out of tune and key.
I always remember that Jeff Beck does some great slide work, and he does it in standard tuning on the same guitar he plays everything else...so, work on technique if you are crashing frets I'd suggest...
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 2, 2012 8:21:58 GMT -5
I'm with 4real on this, if you're going with a taller nut just pull the old one completely. And be careful shimming a nut, you really need some shelf in there to keep it in place and allow the glue a good surface to bond.
One thing I have seen in the past, but cannot recommend whole heartedly, is using a run of the mill locking nut without to bolt downs. This requires a bit of rework, but you did mention this was a beater... The theory is that since it screws to the neck you can shim it to your hearts content for slide work and drop it back down if the mood strikes by just unscrewing the nut and adding or removing shims. This may or may not work depending on the design of you neck, but I figured I'd toss it out anyway...
Either way, setting up a guitar to be a "slide" guitar is dedicating it to that purpose. I tend to agree with 4Real on technique versus setup. I've seen a lot of players use their standard setup for slide work and never saw any problems.
.0295 on the low E is pretty high. You rake the whole array that high and you should be in the ballpark.
And 4Real makes a good point on heavy strings, especially at standard tunings. I don't know the construction specs on a Silvertone guitar neck, but I'd be willing to bet you tune that set to standard tuning and your action will raise itself if a few weeks...
String gauge and selected tunings all effect the pounds of tension on the neck. For example:
Typical 10-50 set at standard tuning = Approx. 132 lbs
Your setup at standard tuning = Approx. 186 lbs
What the Silvertone was probably shipped with = Approx 100 lbs.
My point is, regardless of the nut or action, with that string set you may have to drop the tuning to Db *(which comes in at approx 122 lbs tension) to safeguard against excessive string tension with that gauge string set.
Have fun.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 2, 2012 10:43:36 GMT -5
I guess I should know by now that in any given thread here in the Nutzhouse someone will inevitably demand pictures. This tells me that either I need to make a habit of putting them in my first post, or that I should petition for a "support" sub-forum dedicated to those members who might be addicted to visual aides... ;D Anyway... I think I may not have represented my goal or purpose accurately here. In order to install the new nut I'll have to shim it to lift it above the height of the fretboard. As you'll see in the pic below the nut sits at the base of the headstock just behind the fretboard. The fretboard itself is quite thick, and is equal to the total height of the new nut. So, while the new nut is pre-slotted, the strings won't be able to sit in it at all unless it is boosted (I'm guessing at least 1/16"-3/32"). Once I get the new nut at an acceptable height I want to shim it just the slightest bit more to aid with my currently clumsy slide playing. Once I develop a better technique and a lighter touch the nut can be brought back down to a more average height. Anyhow... Here are a few shots of the Kay... I didn't get the best possible angle in that last pic, but you can see that the new nut is shorter than the original. The width and string spacing are correct though. So it should work if I can get it up high enough to clear the fretboard. Two of the low strings are catching inside of the nut too. So tuning is a real headache (especially when you factor in the bad tuners and bridge - forget about intonation!). I have a set of my standard 10-46 strings on it now, but thought I'd switch up to a set of 12's once I get this nut figured out. As far as tuning goes - I did play with open D in the beginning because I was worried about the stress on this cheap neck. But I like playing in A and E the most, and you loose a lot of real estate when you capo up to A from open D. I guess I'm just keeping my fingers crossed. Anyway... we'll see how things pan out. I appreciate the advice as always. Please let me know if you have anymore wisdom to offer...
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 2, 2012 11:34:17 GMT -5
...Please let me know if you have anymore wisdom to offer... Yeah, lose the bridge. New nut or not that thing has the strings in a helluva groove. If you're not going to use the trem then any top loader will work. Otherwise anything cheap off of eBay would be a vast improvement over what's in there now. And unless you're planning on using Crazy Glue I doubt your new nut will adhere to the old nut with just wood glue. If you want to rasp 1/4" off the old nut with it still glued to the neck that's your call...and your fingers... Use plenty of masking tape... For 1/16" to 3/32" a simple wood shim glued to a cleaned out nut shelf would be the way to go. And that is a relic you've got there... Happy Trails Cynical One
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 2, 2012 16:29:28 GMT -5
Yeah, lose the bridge. New nut or not that thing has the strings in a helluva groove. Yep... Pretty cringe-worthy, huh? I'm not ready to start dumping cash into this thing yet. However, Guitarfetish has some pretty cheap tune-o-matics. They don't list the string spacing for them though. Would you happen to know if this Kay (E-E is 2 1/16") would be American, or import spacing? I think in the end I might wind up splurging and going with one of those Baby Grand bridges from Hipshot... Probably not worth the cash on an axe like this. But they're so cool! Pretty sure the nut is not glued down. Though these strings have been on here for a couple of years... Sounds like a plan! I have some shimming wood left over from that 12 string project I did a few weeks ago. I'll put it to use! Someone once told me that I should restore it to it's original condition. After researching a bit I noticed that, while vintage Silvertone parts seem to sell for decent $$, a Silvertone guitar (even in fantastic shape) sells for beans. Sounds like I'm better off bastardizing the thing and fixing it up so it will be playable for me. Maybe I can make Jack White jealous and sell it to him for a few grand? Thanks for the wisdom! By the way... I dig the new avatar!
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 2, 2012 17:55:51 GMT -5
Would you happen to know if this Kay (E-E is 2 1/16") would be American, or import spacing? Correction: The string spacing is 2 & 3/16", not 2 & 1/16". Sorry...
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 2, 2012 21:01:06 GMT -5
They don't list the string spacing for them though. Would you happen to know if this Kay (E-E is 2 1/16") would be American, or import spacing? On Strat type bridges Import string spacing is generally 52mm, or roughly 2-3/64". Squiers run around 2-1/16", Wilkinson comes in at 2-5/32" and as I recall ""vintage spacing is around 2-7/32". You can look this up on Google to confirm... Tune-o-Matic spacing is generally around 53mm, or a heavy 2-5/64", or light 2-3/32". Roller Tune-o-Matics range from 48.5mm to 57.5mm, or a hair under 2-3/32" up to a heavy 2-17/64". There are variations from different manufacturers so don't hold these as Gospel, just a general reference. That's worth more then the guitar... It probably won't take much to get the old nut out. One tool I highly recommend, and it's not too expensive, is a nut seating file. They only cut on the edges and do an incredible job cleaning the old glue and crap out of the old nut shelf. Thanks. After 4 years I figured it was time for a change. Any guesses on who the old one was? Happy Trails Cynical One
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 2, 2012 21:36:01 GMT -5
Tune-o-Matic spacing is generally around 53mm, or a heavy 2-5/64", or light 2-3/32". Hmm... So if my options are "vintage"... Or "large bushing"... It sounds like I want the "vintage" size? For $12 each I guess I can afford to make a mistake though. I'm gonna throw a wild guess out there and say Zappa. I'll be honest though - I don't know that I ever looked that closely at the old one. I just noticed you changed it.
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 2, 2012 22:04:18 GMT -5
Would you happen to know if this Kay (E-E is 2 1/16") would be American, or import spacing? Correction: The string spacing is 2 & 3/16", not 2 & 1/16". Sorry... Take 3! ;D That's 2 & 3/32" - which is what I meant to type the second time!
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Post by lpf3 on Feb 2, 2012 23:29:59 GMT -5
It probably won't take much to get the old nut out. One tool I highly recommend, and it's not too expensive, is a nut seating file. They only cut on the edges and do an incredible job cleaning the old glue and crap out of the old nut shelf. Thanks. After 4 years I figured it was time for a change. Any guesses on who the old one was? Happy Trails Cynical One I agree with the nut seating file- that tool is indispensable for nut work, well worth the 20 bucks or so. ......... I don't know who the new avatar is, but I always thought the old one was Rasputin........ -lpf3
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 3, 2012 7:40:16 GMT -5
I don't know who the new avatar is, but I always thought the old one was Rasputin........ Yes, the old one was Rasputin. The new avatar is just yours truly. I thought about the swimming trunks in the snow approach...or the bag over my head thing but everybody beat me to it... HTC1
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Feb 5, 2012 14:26:01 GMT -5
I don't know who the new avatar is, but I always thought the old one was Rasputin........ Yes, the old one was Rasputin. The new avatar is just yours truly. I thought about the swimming trunks in the snow approach...or the bag over my head thing but everybody beat me to it... HTC1 Rasputin! Now I remember! Good to see your mug on the boards Cyn. So I went ahead and ordered a few parts for this thing. I felt like i was cheating my other guitars out of something, but oh well... Got a tune-o-matic bridge (no tail piece though), tuners, strap buttons, and a scratch guard blank on the way. So I should at least have stable tuning and intonation soon. I did the nut work last night and restrung with a set of GHS 11's. A 1/16" shim brought the nut just shy of an acceptable height. I added a couple of the thicker LSR shims I had lying around (one on each side), and that seems to have brought it up to a good level for what I'm doing. I didn't measure it, but it seems to be working well for both slide and standard rhythm playing in open E tuning. I've got the action about 1/8" above the 12th fret, though I may go up just a tad when I put the new bridge piece in. I noticed that, despite the thicker strings and the tuning, the neck doesn't seem to be bowing at all. I don't have a wrench to adjust this type of truss rod, so I'll have to leave it for the time being. I'll check it again in a week or so. Maybe it will develop a bit of relief once thing settle in a bit. The neck is awfully thick (though I'm not sure what it's made of). Hoping I can replicate the pick guard on this thing too. I dig the shape. I'm thinking about looking into a leather pick guard in the future when I get around to finishing this thing off. The El Dorado brand are too expensive and too fancy for my tastes. But maybe I can figure out how to get hold of the materials and make one up myself. I also had an idea to strip the finish off, let a coat or two of black stain soak into the raw wood, and then lightly sand it to bring some of the wood back out. Going for the whole "dirty" effect. I'll have to read a bit about that, as I'm hardly a finish expert. But it sounds good in my head for the time being. I'll update this thread with some new pics when I get this next batch of new parts installed. Thanks for all the advice!
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 5, 2012 20:41:44 GMT -5
Rasputin! Now I remember! Good to see your mug on the boards Cyn. Well, my face has been on the boards for years...but thanks for noticing... This is one of those rare occasions where I'd tell you that going cheap is your best option. Aside from an old shell casing just about any piece of metal you put on there would be an improvement over what you had. And using what's left of the old trem will suffice for a tailpiece. As you said, you're trying to make it look mean... Sounds like a plan. As long as the nut has a stable flat footing all should be good. It may go up on its own depending on the bridge. If it goes too high you can always route a channel to mount the tune-o-matic. Keep an eye on it, though. Use a metal straightedge and monitor it every few days for a couple of weeks. If you notice it bowing start dropping the tuning. A wrench now is cheaper then a repair or new neck later. Next trip to the hardware store try and score one. A thick neck will help. The fact the wood has aged and stabilized will work to your advantage. I think as long as you stick to the 11s you'll be OK. If it were me, I'd use black wood dye with water instead of denatured alcohol. The water will raise the grain so you'll get a better contrast when you sand it down. Stick with a 320 or 400 grit woodworkers sandpaper. If you want to get really sexy with it, put the black on first, then after sanding and exposing the lighter wood then rub on a yellow, orange or light red wood dye mixed with denatured alcohol. You won't raise the grain and it'll give it unique look. (same process on quilted maple to get that 3D effect) Once it looks the way you want it to, use some matte poly mixed 50\50 with mineral spirits and wipe it on. About 4-6 coats will work. If you want you can hit it with some 400 and 800 wet or dry and then some polishing compound to smooth it all out. This will give you a "dirty" look, but the wood will stay protected from moisture. The matte finish won't catch the light so it'll still have that "mean" look to it. I think you're on the path to a very unique little guitar. And good luck with that whole Jack White thing... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Feb 19, 2012 22:06:07 GMT -5
Here you are...
The artist above goes through how he sets up his guitars in very DIY nutz fashion for slide and undeniably he gets a great sound from these cheap and sometimes twisted guitars...
Not he shims his nuts with business cards...
Also, that he replaced his tuners with locking tuners (on the acoustic the same type I used on my LP from stew-mac) which I do think would be advisable.
Enjoy...
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