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Post by genmce on Apr 27, 2012 22:06:42 GMT -5
I just picked up a danelectro danoblaster electric 12 string. I did not like the pickups (stock 3 SC) much - way way to bright... it hurt to hear it... Anyway, I am looking for recommendations for wiring it. There are a few diagrams out here, but have have not found one to match my situation. I have 3 GFS (lil killers - $58 for a set of three, plus ship) single coil sized - rail style humbucker pickups. Shot at 2012-04-28 What I have on hand - the standard fender type 5 way (superswitch does not fit with out some structural modification to the body - I already put down the shielding tape...) I have (one)5 way standard fender style switch (two) 250k push/ pull pots (one) 4 pdt on/on switch already installed (currently wired with adam's hsh to sss/hh wiring) (three) 4 pole 3 position rotary switches (not install not sure what to do with these... I really like bright quack - (position 4 (m(humbucker+b)(m(single coil)+B and I really like gnarly - dark/with a bite - humbucker. (Les Paul Bridge humbucker (vol 10 and tone 1-2) with some gain. I like the bridge humbucker on a knob that fades between single and humbucker. 4Real has a nice thread on that - and I have tried (successfully) his HSS wiring scheme (guitarnutz site) on my white MIM standard as well as the 3 dptp on the original guitarnuts site. I also like the middle single coil sound as well as the bridge neck combo. I like tones with some character - but I don't want so many options I'll forget where they are. I need suggestions maybe a diagram for something interesting for HHH on an electric 12 string. *Standard fender sytle 5 way switch, 4 pdt on/on toggle switch and 2 dpdt push/pull pots of which 1 is a 250k volume and 1 a 250k, both audio. I don't see many on the HHH combination. Thanks to all Happy Day!
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Post by yakkmeister on Apr 28, 2012 0:24:31 GMT -5
Hello!
Looks like these have 4 controls plus a bunch of buttons?
If it were me, I would: wire up 3 controls with 500K push-pull pots setup for coil-tapping and tone control with the last a volume. Swap the buttons for switches and run 4 toggles - 3x series/parallel and one bypass (maybe use a black paddle switch for that one instead of chrome) Wire up the 5-way to accept the output of the switches to pass on to the volume/tone stuff.
If need be, there is a single-wafer super-switch made by oak grigsby. I'd also put a big cap over the tone control for the bridge pickup - 0.10mf - for a darker sound.
I suspect that one could, potentially, perform series/parallel switching then coil-tapping followed by tone control then switching to volume control and, ultimately, output jack. Someone else may be able to point out if tone controls before switching and volume is a viable option.
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Post by genmce on Apr 28, 2012 7:52:37 GMT -5
It does in fact have other buttons, 4 holes, yup and two more pots for the onboard fx. The onboard fx are pretty useless, I like the distortion but it is way too loud when engaged. The other fx are ... eh... So I could pull out those and have 4 more switch spots and two more pot holes.
The push pulls I have are 250k, can I use them instead, hate to have to buy more, would rather use what I have on hand. I also have a couple 4 pole 3 position rotaries... hmm... I'll try to get a pic up today.
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Post by newey on Apr 28, 2012 8:31:55 GMT -5
genmce- Welcome Back! It wasn't clear to me whether you had already installed the GFS rails or not, since you mentioned you had the SSS/HH switch. If so, I assume you are happy with the coil-split sounds on the rails. I found the rails to not be so great when split, didn't really approximate a SC to my ears. But, of course, to each his or her own. 250K pots with the rails will give you "dark HB" in spades, but I'm not sure that "bright quack" is going to be on the menu. Can we assume that the 5-way switch is wired as a std Strat switch at present? But then: Lots of switches doesn't equal simple to operate, so it seems you have some conflicting desires here. To keep things simple, you like the N + B, but also like the middle alone. Therefore, the numerous mods that replace middle alone at position 3 of the 5-way switch are not for you- and those require something more than the std. 5-way anyway. . . So, one thing to do with one of your P/P pots might be to use it as a "neck on" (or "bridge on", your choice) switch to give the N + B combo when in position 1 (or 5, depending) on the 5-way. You could accomplish much the same by using it as a "mid off" switch, but that then gives you a dead position at #3. The "bridge on" (or "neck on") option also adds B + M + N. You have lots of switches, and lots of pre-existing holes. This could quickly spiral out of control and get very complicated- negating your "ease of switching" requirement. I would urge you to scale back your desires, focus on quality of selections, not quantity. As for the rotaries, maybe look to use one rather than both. With three positions, one can be a bypass to the 5-way, and the other two positions could be used to give you some series options for those "dark HB" sounds you want-, say N X B and B X M perhaps?
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Post by genmce on Apr 28, 2012 8:59:34 GMT -5
Pictures added. I mentioned what I have on hand, not with the intention of using it all, but merely as a point of reference to what I could use. Perhaps I should consider digging out wood for the supper switch. Yup installed - not sure if I really like the coil split yet... have not gotten pickup heights sweet yet. It is currently wired like this... www.alloutput.com/Wiring/HSH_wiring_layout_1.pdfWhich is controlled by the yellow 4pdt switch. * the ones I like. It is currently wired with a 250k push/pull volume and a 500k tone. HH mode (not coil split) *1 = N 2= N+B (the next three positions really sound the same as the N position I confirmed the wiring and the correct pickups are active) 3 = N+B 4= N+B *5= B SSS mode = all coil split unless noted. *1= N 2=N+M 3=M *4=M+B *5=B I also have the volume push pull set to defeat coil split on M pickup, when up. 1=N *2=N+M(humbucker) *3=M(humbucker) *4=M(humb)+B 5=B I don't have room to put in super switch without digging out wood. I want to use what I have on hand. I can pull out the fx unit which would free up space for more switching. Yeah - so not too complicated but not simple either. I am comfortable with the above number of options. Which is 12. I really want the quack tho - I love position 4 on a standard strat wiring. Priorities then. -Strong bright quack (strat position 4) -Bridge Neck combo (tele sound - single coil sound) -Bridge hum + Neck hum (les paul all) -All hums on. (I think tho I have not heard it yet) I like the simplicity of Adams wiring - it's either a strat or a two humbucker - but I don't like having those three positions that sound the same on HH. It has some quack position 4 B+M coil split (which rails together should yield more quack?) Yes - I am not sure I want to remove the fx, if I do - I either have to fill it with switches (yak) or they are blank holes. I really don't like the location of the 5way switch - it's right in my strumming pattern - I like to strum near the neck... So removing it and going with toggles/rotarys is interesting to me. Of course that would leave the hole there ... So many options... My head starts swimming. I have spiraled out of control. As for the 250k push pulls, couldn't I wire a resistor on one of the switches so it looks like a 500k? or does that only work when you have a 500k?
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Post by genmce on Apr 28, 2012 9:27:07 GMT -5
Related question -
Can the coil split wires from one pickup be connected to the coil split wires from another pickup? Bridge pickup (red and white wires) when grounded coil split. Middle (red and white wires) when grounded coil split. same with neck. If I connect the red and white wires from all three pickups to one point, then switch to ground to simultaneously coil split all three. Will this work - or why would I NOT want to do this?
Yeah I know they can, but what does it do?
Why - Using adams wiring above, I wanted a way for the middle humbucker to be able to coil split also without using another switch. One tap to tap em all as it were.
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 28, 2012 10:39:28 GMT -5
If I connect the red and white wires from all three pickups to one point, then switch to ground to simultaneously coil split all three. Will this work - or why would I NOT want to do this? In the split position of the switch (series links grounded), it gets you exactly what you want, for all or any (parallel) combination of the 3 pickups. But when the split switch is in the "normal" position, that common connection between series links (red/white) will result in something entirely different than what you expect. If you select just the neck pickup, you get the (black to red) coil of the neck pickup in series with the parallel combination of all three white to green coils. This obviously won't sound the same as having the neck black to red coil in series with just the neck white to green coil (neck HB). So yeah, you could connect all three series links together, but I don't think you'll want to.
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Post by genmce on Apr 28, 2012 12:43:25 GMT -5
Yeah - i thought there would have to be a price to pay. Thanks.
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Post by genmce on Apr 28, 2012 16:03:39 GMT -5
I still want suggestions, possibly diagrams, if anyone has the time.
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 28, 2012 18:50:08 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Apr 28, 2012 21:42:37 GMT -5
pÉƎᴚ⊥Çá´š I knew it, reTread is secretly related to Prince ...however, it did him no good, and the artist formerly known as 'The artist formerly known as Prince', is now formally known as Prince, as he was formerly J
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Post by genmce on Apr 29, 2012 7:06:25 GMT -5
The first of these uses three pots. I only have one vol and one tone. The other knobs and buttons are for built in fx. Can the first be done with only 2 250k push pulls? The second is with a super switch (yes I have one) but don't want to dig out wood for it to fit. The hole is too narrow and shallow and I have already shielded it.
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Post by genmce on Apr 29, 2012 18:30:25 GMT -5
Hmm - well I guess I better break out the hammer and chisel for the superswitch. Try to use the John H diagram for HHH. Or fall back to HSH - Lots of those diagrams.
Or maybe try a standard strat wiring for singles and for hums - don't even know what mb or mn will sound like as both humbuckers.
I just dunno.
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Post by newey on Apr 29, 2012 20:24:36 GMT -5
Well, you could have the twin volume controls, but you'd have to lose the tone control.
It would be helpful to decide what you want to do with this first, then we'll figure out how to implement it with the components you have on hand, if possible.
One thing to consider: You now have it wired to a HSH scheme, switchable from SSS to HH. Essentially, that scheme uses a 4P switch to split the HBs (two poles) and to add the middle pup in when the SC sounds are selected on the HBs.
With the switch the other way, the mid is disconnected and the bridge HB "moves over" to take its place on the 5-way, so you get the N + B in all 3 middle positions on the 5-way switch.
If you like that part of things, leave that "as is" and plan to add in variation by using the middle pup as more than a "SC" (as it is wired now). You could interpose a P/P pot to control the middle pup before the wiring to the existing 4PDT switch, so as to add the middle in parallel with your existing HH settings:
When the P/P pot is "down", the middle pup is split to a SC and is switched through to 4PDT (i.e., this is like your existing wiring, you get the middle only in the SSS mode.) When "up", the middle pup is always on as a full HB regardless of the 5-way selection.
This then would add (on the 5-way), with 4P switch set to "HH":
N (full HB) + M (full HB) B + M + N (all full HB) B + M + N (all full HB) B + M + N (all full HB) B (full HB) + Mid (full HB)
With the 4P set to "SSS", you'd get (on the 5-way):
N (SC) + M (full HB) N (SC) + M (full HB) M (full HB) B (SC) + M (full HB) B (SC) + M (full HB)
This would be a very simple mod to do to the existing wiring. The second P/P pot might also be able to be used in some other fashion.
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Post by genmce on Apr 29, 2012 22:33:21 GMT -5
Thanks Newey.
Pondering your suggestions.
I will think, then ask a more specific questions..
Right now, thinking of rewire the 4pdt to switch coil split on all three humbuckers. Take pickup outputs directly to the 5 way.
That should yield All coils split sc mode. n n+m m m+b b and all full humbucker n n+m m m+b b
That will leave one pole free... on the 4pdt - for what I don't know... Perhaps add bridge or neck on to one of the push pulls while I am in there. Play that for a while.
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Post by newey on Apr 29, 2012 22:48:32 GMT -5
That can certainly be done, not a bad plan.
Whatever you wire to that 4th pole then must necessarily be switched alongside of either your HB setting or your coil split setting. So I don't think there's much of anything you could do with that pole that wouldn't affect your desired selections one way or the other.
If you do decide to wire the 4PDT that way, you'll want to select the opposite coil on the middle pickup to split, so that it's humcanceling at positions 2 and 4 on your 5-way switch.
Then, as you say, while you're in there, one P/P to turn the neck on- that'll give you the two missing Strat combos (N + B and N + M + B).
The other P/P could be a phase switch on the neck to give you a selection of OOP sounds.
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Post by genmce on Apr 30, 2012 6:10:34 GMT -5
Newey - you mention the opposite coil for hum canceling on two and four.
Can you elaborate. Let's say position 2 on SSS neck north with m south? Position 4 bridge north with middle south? Can I just spin the pickups 180 degrees to accomplish this? If I have to pick the other coil wires, how do I pull it back to humbucker. I have not thought this part out.
The other thing I really like from 4real's hss + is the humbucker/sc spin knob. However I am out of knob space with only two, unless I pull the fx but then there are many holes.
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Post by newey on Apr 30, 2012 17:10:42 GMT -5
Yes. In a true SSS Strat, positions 2 and 4 on the 5-way switch are hum-cancelling (N + M and B + M). At least modern Strats are this way. This is done by having the middle pickup be reverse wound, reverse polarity ("RWRP") with respect to the other two pickups. I won't explain hum-cancelling in general, but there's an ongoing thread on that topic at the top of the Wiring page. In any event, your new middle pickup is a HB. It probably has the same coil configuration as both the bridge and neck HBs, and I'm guessing the same wire colors as well. Used as a HB, there's no reason to be concerned about which coil is which, so no reason for the manufacturer to make the middle any differently than the other pickups. Yes. Or vice versa. The point is, your 4P switch already selects the same coil to split for both the bridge and the neck. I don't know if that's the N or S offhand, but whichever one it is for both those, the middle pup has to split to the opposite coil to be hum-cancelling. No, that simply moves the physical location of the coils around, it doesn't affect which coil is wired to be "on" when the split switch is engaged. We're talking wiring here. You wire the humbucker differently- "inside out" as our pal wolf says. Using SD colors (same as GFS), your humbuckers are split such that the coil with the red/green wires is shorted to ground, and is the one that is therefore "off"; the coil with the black and white wires is "on". To get the other coil, you have two choices with the middle pup. First, you can wire the red/white junction to be switched to the "hot" output, instead of being grounded when switched. Now the red gets connected to the hot, the green wire is grounded so you hear that coil, while the black/white coil is shorted on both ends to the hot line, and thus doesn't complete a circuit. The second option is to wire the green and black together and ground them with the switch just as the others are. The white wire then goes to ground, red to hot. Diagram that out and you'll see why it's called "inside-out" wiring.
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Post by genmce on Apr 30, 2012 19:11:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the continued advice. I thought that too (gfs same as SD) not so. Not these anyway. Included docs with gfs pickups shows - north coil - start=black, end=white both ground; south coil - start=green (also called +) end=Red (red commented "Connect Red to white No Contact for Humbucker Connect to ground for single coil") So for these instead of red/green short then to ground for sc, it is Red/White. Right? I'm pretty sure I picked that up correctly. However, to test I should measure ohms and when they match meaning(current wiring compared to reverse)I'll know I have it - right? Confirmed - Reverse wiring for GFS lil killer mid pickup goes White +, green/black short and red ground. The resistance is the same for the above mentioned direction (Green+, red/white short and black ground) right... So based on my listed wiring. I need to break the starts short green and black (gnd to split coil) Red to ground and white as + (output)? media.photobucket.com/image/gfs%20lil%20killer%20wiring/newey_album/GFSinfo.jpgmedia.photobucket.com/image/gfs%20lil%20killer%20wiring/newey_album/GFSinfo.jpg
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Post by newey on Apr 30, 2012 21:59:43 GMT -5
That is the same as for SD pickups. Pickup wiring colors and polarityThe red/white wires form the "series junction" between the two coils. If you ground that junction, the green/red coil has both ends attached to ground, so that coil is shorted to ground and we don't get a signal. The other coil, the N coil, is the black and white wires. When the red/white junction is connected via the switch to ground, the white wire is now grounded. The other end of that coil is the black wire, which goes to the "hot' output- so we hear the N coil, as it makes a complete circuit. To get the middle pup to have the opposite coil active (again, this assumes all three pickups are identical), instead of grounding the red/white connection, attach the red/white junction to the "hot" output (via the switch- where the switch would be connected to ground, connect it to the output instead.)
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Post by genmce on May 1, 2012 7:14:50 GMT -5
Ok - here is what I have so far - wired and tested. Broke the g string tho... I guess there are worse things that can happen. I need to find a way to draw this. Using adams above. 4pdt is the humbucker/coil split switch. 1 pole not used. I went with standard 5 way switching for nmb. Volume pot has neck on switch, single tone pot has neck phase switch. Volume and tone pot wired as adams drawing Working well - meaning all positions work as above. Some good sounds. Neck on is really nice. Not sure I need the neck phase tho. Some very interesting combos. I particularly like the full hum neck bridge mid Not getting enough brightness or punch tho... Plenty dark, too dark. .047 cap, 250k push/pulls. Should I try to wire the volume/tone differently? See adams diagram for how it is wired. I don't have 500k pots, ok I do, but they aren't push/pulls. Is there some way to get more bright/punch without going to 500ks? Can I lower the value of the cap, will that help? Found this on a different thread... The cap value doesn't have any effect with the tone pot at "10", it only comes into play as you turn the tone control down. Differing cap values change the frequency response curve as you decrease the control. The setting with a 500K tone pot and 1 Meg Volume pot has a total parallel resistance of 333K; for the neck with 250K and 1M, it's 200KΩ. We would then expect the neck to be a bit "darker" sounding than if both tone pots were 500K. Hmmm... may need to redo - again - dump the onboard fx and dive in totally. Use the 500k volume and tone that came with the guitar. and install toggles for stuff instead of push pulls. Took the day off. Maybe I can get this thing going by the end of the day... Thanks again.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 1, 2012 8:28:31 GMT -5
Not getting enough brightness or punch tho... Plenty dark, too dark. .047 cap, 250k push/pulls. Should I try to wire the volume/tone differently? See adams diagram for how it is wired. I don't have 500k pots, ok I do, but they aren't push/pulls. Is there some way to get more bright/punch without going to 500ks? Can I lower the value of the cap, will that help? Found this on a different thread... Likely not, per the quote you posted. Only thing I can think with the parts you've tried to limit yourself to would be if you could find a way to open the Tone pot up to reveal the resistive track and get it back together without destroying the switch part. Ive never actually held one of these, so I'm not sure if that's possible. If it is, you can cut or scrape away the track at the "10 end" to make it No-Load. That should help some. Not sure it will get you all the way to where you want to be. Edit - Another idea. Never actually heard of anybody trying it. Feel like being a guinea pig? You should theoretically be able to find a cap of a proper value such that when wired across one coil of each HB (you'll end up with three caps, which could be wired to the 4PDT if desired) they let some of the highest frequencies through pretty much as though it was an SC for only those frequencies. A resistor in series with this cap would "dial back" that effect, if the cap alone ends up too much. It's a special application of the "Broadbucker" or "Half-Series" thing. Id be interested to see if you can get it to work. Gonna take some experimenting to find a proper value, though.
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Post by genmce on May 1, 2012 8:42:54 GMT -5
Yeah limited with what I have on hand. I want to finish it to use at Jam on Wed.
What impact is the 250k volume pot? Should I change that back to 500k also
As for trying to no load it. It is a push pull pot - I don't think I can successfully disassemble then reassemble to anything worth using.
The hunt and peck does not sound like much fun to me. I will just get frustrated with that and bag it. Especially since I have already so much time in this. How many times to remove pickguard, before I wear out the screw holes?
I have removed the fx - now have too many holes - and not sure what to do with them.
This will be interesting.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 1, 2012 8:49:23 GMT -5
No-Load Tone with a 250K Volume is the same as bumping both T and V to 500K. But, yeah, like I said I don't know if you can mod that pot.
I edited my post above while you were typing. Don't feel like re-editing now. You should read the "Edit" section. I'm going to bed now, but the idea is pretty simple.
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Post by newey on May 1, 2012 9:59:54 GMT -5
Another thought as far as brightness goes. Since you say you're not enamored with the neck phase switch, you could lose that and use the P/P to bypass the Vol and tone controls entirely. That will brighten things up as well as increase the output, but of course at the loss of your V and T controls in "bright mode".
I hate to say "I told you so . . .". But I did. Back in Reply #3.
It's always a problem to try to fit a scheme to the components one has, rather than fit the components to the scheme. 500K P/P pots aren't very expensive, and given the hassle of disassembly and the inherent drawbacks of the various "work-arounds" being proposed here, they probably would have been a good investment.
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Post by reTrEaD on May 1, 2012 10:25:57 GMT -5
I have 3 GFS (lil killers - $58 for a set of three, plus ship) single coil sized - rail style humbucker pickups. Which version are these? Vintage, modern, or hot?
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Post by genmce on May 1, 2012 10:35:54 GMT -5
500k push pulls. Yes you did tell me so. I have been told so. Did not want to wait for the online order.
Ok - so should I have a 500k on volume as well? Right now I just tried the 500k b non-push pull (original) tone and it sounded much better, however, gremlins have appeared. Must track down lost ground hum.
Open her back up again. Removed the fx but it looks naked now... only have installed one dpdt on on toggle for the neck phase. I have not given up on the neck phase. I think I missed the highs with the 250k pots too much. So was just not satisfied. Hopefully I will find satisfaction. Might try to see if I can pick switches up locally, hopefully they are not $30 a piece. Rats - nothing local.
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Post by genmce on May 1, 2012 10:37:38 GMT -5
I have 3 GFS (lil killers - $58 for a set of three, plus ship) single coil sized - rail style humbucker pickups. Which version are these? Vintage, modern, or hot? All three (I think) - match set they call it. Marked Neck, Mid, Bridge.
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Post by genmce on May 1, 2012 11:36:01 GMT -5
Crap - now it is full of hum all over the place.
That moment when you leave well enough alone has long past me. That moment of why do I mess with it, returns with a vengeance.
Something simple is amiss and I have no idea right now. Let go and all is hum... touch and quiet. I have a ground loop somewhere.
Perhaps I'll order some 500k push pulls and go outside in the sun.
UGH!!!!!!!!
Thankfully I can pick up the white guitar and actually play - without hum.
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Post by reTrEaD on May 1, 2012 13:22:32 GMT -5
Which version are these? Vintage, modern, or hot? All three (I think) - match set they call it. Marked Neck, Mid, Bridge. I just looked on their site. 6.5k, 10, and 12k for the DC resistance. That seems like a very large jump. Over 50% for each step. We expect less signal being generated at the end of the string (bridge) compared with the middle. The amplitude of the string vibration is greater in the middle of the string. To compensate, more windings are added to the pickups closer to the bridge. But normally this is around 10~20% each step. With so much more winding on the middle and bridge, does the tone get muddier? I haven't used rails type pickups but from what I have read, they lack the clear, glassy highs that traditional SC pickups have. In addition to the irregular magnetic fields cause by having two opposite magnetic poles so close together, the thin, solid pole-pieces increase the inductance of the windings. Even with 500k pots, you might still be dissatisfied with the tone from these pickups. I'd suggest trying them with the two coils of each pickup wired in parallel rather than in series. This will decrease the inductance by a factor of 4, compared to having the two coils in series.
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