Armistice Day - 2012

[cynical1]

Just a Common Soldier (A Soldier Died Today)

He was getting old and paunchy and his hair was falling fast,
And he sat around the Legion, telling stories of the past.
Of a war that he had fought in and the deeds that he had done,
In his exploits with his buddies; they were heroes, every one.


And tho’ sometimes, to his neighbors, his tales became a joke,
All his Legion buddies listened, for they knew whereof he spoke.
But we’ll hear his tales no longer for old Bill has passed away,
And the world’s a little poorer, for a soldier died today.


He will not be mourned by many, just his children and his wife,
For he lived an ordinary and quite uneventful life.
Held a job and raised a family, quietly going his own way,
And the world won’t note his passing, though a soldier died today.


When politicians leave this earth, their bodies lie in state,
While thousands note their passing and proclaim that they were great.
Papers tell their whole life stories, from the time that they were young,
But the passing of a soldier goes unnoticed and unsung.


Is the greatest contribution to the welfare of our land,
A guy who breaks his promises and cons his fellow man?
Or the ordinary fellow who, in times of war and strife,
Goes off to serve his Country and offers up his life?


A politician’s stipend and the style in which he lives,
Are sometimes disproportionate to the service that he gives.
While the ordinary soldier, who offered up his all,
Is paid off with a medal and perhaps, a pension small.


It’s so easy to forget them for it was so long ago,
That the old Bills of our Country went to battle, but we know
It was not the politicians, with their compromise and ploys,
Who won for us the freedom that our Country now enjoys.


Should you find yourself in danger, with your enemies at hand,
Would you want a politician with his ever-shifting stand?
Or would you prefer a soldier, who has sworn to defend
His home, his kin and Country and would fight until the end?


He was just a common soldier and his ranks are growing thin,
But his presence should remind us we may need his like again.
For when countries are in conflict, then we find the soldier’s part
Is to clean up all the troubles that the politicians start.


If we cannot do him honour while he’s here to hear the praise,
Then at least let’s give him homage at the ending of his days.
Perhaps just a simple headline in a paper that would say,
Our Country is in mourning, for a soldier died today.


By A. LAWRENCE VAINCOURT, The Gazette November 9, 2012
© Copyright (c) The Montreal Gazette

[4real]

I happened to be in town yesterday and stopped by the small memorial here on the island as the bugle called at 11am and these words again spoken...


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.

Lest We Forget

[cynical1]

That's from a poem written in 1914 by Laurence Binyon. It was originally published by The Times shortly after the war began and Britain had her first encounter with the Germans.

Binyon was too old for military service when the war began, but he did become an Orderly for the Red Cross during the war as I recall.

It took a while, but I did find the full version of the poem.



For the Fallen

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill: Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres.
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain,
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

[Deleted]

It is remarkable that in this war, in the balkan front, the largest contribution to the "allies" victory was made (as always) by the Serbs.
Serbs lost almost 1/2 of the adult male population in that war. Most Serbs have at least one dead relative from this war. Nearly 1,000,000 Serbs lost their lives either during their retreat (through albania) to Corfu, or in Corfu, or later in their victorious come-back on the Solunski front (Thesaloniki front).

This is a song about those victims :

[sumgai]

pyrros,

Thank you for that, it was very moving.

I'd like to comment a bit here.....

To most Americans (well, USA Americans anyways), the term The Balkans has little meaning beyond a general geographical location on the globe. What makes it up in terms of nation-states, peoples, cultures, etc, most of us have no clue at all. To my countrymen, it's all the same - Serbs, Croatians and Slovenians, they're all interchangable. But don't worry, your area isn't alone in our ignorance, we treat all of Asia the same way, and probably Africa as well.

My comment is directed more to the fact that there's a lot to learn, in one's early school years, and only so much time to 'cram it in'. History and Geography are the usual subjects to be shortchanged, when the administrators are making up the lesson plans. Very sad, that.

And FWIW, I visited the former Yugoslavia in the early 70's, I was sad to see it torn by war and then split up in 1991. It was an eye-opening experience, to say the least (my visit, not the war!).

As Bob Hope said more than once, Thanks For The Memories.




sumgai

[Deleted]

wow man!!
your Karma just increased by one!

Where have you been in ex-yu?

It must have been totally rock'n'roll country at that time!

[sumgai]

pyrros,

I actually had a girl friend in Zagreb, lived with her for almost 2 months, on about 2 weeks worth of income from my job in a factory in Germany. (This was after I had left the US Army, and was bumming around Europe on my own.) I still remember nights sitting in a small tavern by Savski Most (The River Bridge), helping her and her friends study for their final exams at school. (At the time, I was quite multi-lingual, in a very unschooled way - strictly street talk, no formal training at all.)

Hmmm, still not sure why I left.... must've been a good reason, or at least it looked like a good reason at the time. Sad that I don't recall that particular detail.   Bleeping CRS strikes again.




sumgai

[JFrankParnell]

The town where I live, Anacortes, WA is probly somewhat unique in its knowledge of Serbs, Croats and Slovs. We have a large (and vocal!) population of Croats, many from the town of Vela Luka. Lots of families with 'vich' or 'ich' on the ends of their names. They form much of the foundation of our town's commercial fishing heritage.

[ashcatlt]

I guess I'm not sure if it's true all over, but I suspect that it is.

In my school public school district there was a policy which required that anyone who wanted to coach an athletic team to also teach. Maybe a budget thing or whatever... Any given school can only have so many PE teachers, so the rest of the coaches usually ended up teaching Social Studies. So for 5 years of middle and high school my History and Geography came from guys who had gone to college for sports, and were happy to coast class the same way from the other side of the podium.

On top of that, of course, we were taught a curriculum dictated by Texans, designed specifically to show that the progress of civilization started in the middle east, led through Rome to the British Isles to its culmination in the US Congress.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2012 11:48:25 GMT -5 sumgai said:

pyrros,

I actually had a girl friend in Zagreb, lived with her for almost 2 months, on about 2 weeks worth of income from my job in a factory in Germany. (This was after I had left the US Army, and was bumming around Europe on my own.) I still remember nights sitting in a small tavern by Savski Most (The River Bridge), helping her and her friends study for their final exams at school. (At the time, I was quite multi-lingual, in a very unschooled way - strictly street talk, no formal training at all.)

Hmmm, still not sure why I left.... must've been a good reason, or at least it looked like a good reason at the time. Sad that I don't recall that particular detail.   Bleeping CRS strikes again.




sumgai

my respect goes to you. nuff said.

Pozdrav iz Grcke!

PS

Zagreb/Croatia produced much of the ex-yu rock music. Especially bands like Azra were both fantastic and very successful as well. Bosnia (my wife's origin) also produced "Bijelo Dugme", "Zabranjeno pusenje", etc...., Serbia acts like the legendary SMAK and the greatest rock ex-yu guitarist Tocak Mihajlovic, while Yu-Makedonia produced i think the first ex-yu balkan rock Guitar shredder the legendary Vlatko Stefanovski.

i'll try to make a compilation for you some day!!!

Also, i will try to make some decent compilation of good Greek music.

[4real]

YouTube Wonderkind John Gomm is still touring (I saw and met him early in the year here in Melbourne) and posted this, this morning...

Jon Gomm;

Here in Bosnia, talking to people who were children dodging air raids or men forced to take up arms during the war here in the 1990's, who saw soldiers fighting their own and selling guns to their enemies, while the history books tell of good versus evil, listening to them all recount how religious leaders and politicians stirred up hate that set brother against brother and neighbour against neighbour, and seeing a country now segregated by race, seeing a city now bursting with regrowth but still stricken with poverty, while newly rebuilt churches are dripping with millions-worth of gold and priests drive BMWs and say "forgive, but never forget", and where criminals carry weapons of war, and all the while the everyday people of Bosnia are so generous, and so kind, and so cultured and strong.

And I look at Gaza and Syria today, I look at the fear seething from our world's media, and the mistrust of whole groups, countries and regions, all of which are just populated with people, just people. And I wonder if we just gagged every politician and every priest in the world instead of trusting them to solve problems they caused in the first place, how long it would take before peace broke out.

And I wonder if we will ever learn.

[ashcatlt]

Ah, but learning is the answer! Education, and more importantly Enlightenment, of those "just people" is the only chance we have. While most of the people in the world really just want some basic security - food and shelter for their families and a reasonable assurance that they won't die a violent death - they have also been de-educated.

Unfortunately most of the cultures of the world have suffered for a couple thousand years from getting all of their education re: the nature of reality and our place in it from people with a vested interest in seeing that we don't get the truth - that in fact the Truth is heresy and blasphemy and un-patriotic and sick and evil. It's been going on so long that even most of the folks teaching and preaching the Lie honestly believe it to be Absolute Truth.

Revelations says that in the end times the Beast will sit in the house of God and be worshipped as God.

We've got a lot of reprogramming to do if we ever want a truly peaceful, free, and equal world.

And if that doesn't get me banned...

[sumgai]

4,

Ah yes, the CandyRat school of acoustic guitar - can't get enough of it! ;D

I liken that crowd to shredding in polyphony, versus metalheads massacring the fretboard without actually letting the audience have a clue as to whay they're trying to say, musically.

And while I'm strictly an instrumental fan, occasionally a vocalist comes along that does manage to get under my skin.... Jon G. being one of the rare ones. As it happens, The Great Internet Experiment, via the offices of YouTube, presented me with some suggestions after the video was over, and I ended up with this one:



And that led me down a merry path this morning, finding a whole new outlet in Ont'Sofa, both as in 'dot com' and as in YouTube. Damn, but there's some mighty good talent out there, ain't there? ;D

---

pyrros,

I'd like that compilation, please! Unless I go to YouTube and d/l ethnic stuff (which I've done from time to time), then it'd be fair to say that my collection is quite lacking in music from that region of the planet. Most of time nowadays, we see the label "World Music", and it really means music from Africa or possibly South America. The Eastern European and Asian cultures are vastly under-represented, in my opinion.

But don't rush it, at least not on my account, please. Any such efforts on your part will be highly appreciated no matter when they might come about. And I daresay, I'm not the only one here who would also like to hear more in that style, probably a good number of Nutz would also be interested, I'm sure.

Thanks, both for the trip down memory lane (full of potholes, but still fun!) and for your efforts on behalf of myself and all of us here in The NutzHouse!

Ooops, gotta run, the boss is coming!





sumgai

[sumgai]

Nov 16, 2012 12:19:42 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

.....

And if that doesn't get me banned...

It'll take more than that to do you in, ash! ;D

I'm currently reading James P. Hogan's The Anguished Dawn, a post-apocalyptic novel that delves deeply in the same vein as you just touched upon. A really good author by all accounts, this one rates right up there with his best, as far as I'm concerned. (If you've already read it, please don't post any spoilers! )

In fact, this is The Coffee Shop, where we can wax poetic about nearly anything, so if anyone wants to post an opinion (or some facts) that might be 'under appreciated' by a percentage of readers, I welcome those musings, and promise not to let anyone else start a flame war over those expressions. By that I mean that retorts that get personal will be redacted or erased, but the gist of the thread/topic will remain visible for all to see and ponder. So be it.



sumgai

[4real]

I really appreciate Jon (who is english and not strictly a candyrat artist, though he tours with a lot of them and might do some distribution now) but he is genuinely a nice guy and deep thinker and takes his music to all parts of the world while riding this 'wave' of notoriety.

Not sure about the 'rash' of child stars aout, but for sure there is a lot of talent out there.

...

Ash, it's fine, perhaps coy...not sure. At first it touched upon some of my feelings about education and manipulated ignorance, but so much of it comes from the quarter that you seem to be direting for solution, perhaps even 'final solution'...

I personally adopt a stance of acceptance as much as possible and try and take people as "people, just people"...but really, there is so much of this 'tribalism' and self identity to a 'group' that pits one against another, a lot of the humanity is lost as well as thought due to this 'programming'. I would personally don't think answers are in swapping one programming for another or another man's "Truth"...history seems to teach me otherwise nor would I want to be programmed!

I do think there is the opportunity to eduate oneself a fair bit and there is a vast amount of information and inspiration that one might access on a more even level than before...for better or worse...it is dogma that sets the filter on how one assesses this information and people need to learn how to learn and to be able to have the empathy to put oneself in another's shoes.

...

[Deleted]

Nov 16, 2012 12:19:42 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Ah, but learning is the answer! Education, and more importantly Enlightenment, of those "just people" is the only chance we have. While most of the people in the world really just want some basic security - food and shelter for their families and a reasonable assurance that they won't die a violent death - they have also been de-educated.

Unfortunately most of the cultures of the world have suffered for a couple thousand years from getting all of their education re: the nature of reality and our place in it from people with a vested interest in seeing that we don't get the truth - that in fact the Truth is heresy and blasphemy and un-patriotic and sick and evil. It's been going on so long that even most of the folks teaching and preaching the Lie honestly believe it to be Absolute Truth.

Revelations says that in the end times the Beast will sit in the house of God and be worshipped as God.

We've got a lot of reprogramming to do if we ever want a truly peaceful, free, and equal world.

And if that doesn't get me banned...

the same concept of lies and distortion and promoting anything unnatural is all over. Maybe Satan is coming, but maybe its the natural combination of how God/earth/Satan have always been, maybe we are much smarter (and sense things) than we should be, maybe we feel the lies and the distortions because we are too clever, maybe we see things through only our own selfish views. Justice/truth might have a relative meaning.

Think of that : loads of inequality, loads of injustice, but at least there is some relative peace (in at least half of the world lets say). If nations/communities were truly free, then what might happen? no one knows. Some people would stick together for sure, others would fight, but the whole thing would be uncontrolled.

Say i am crazy, but i do not exclude the possibility that the situation we are in, to be a 100% situation planned by God. Maybe we should be thankful every day, because our lives are short, and we are even smaller.

[ashcatlt]

Maybe we should be thankful every day, because our lives are short, and we are even smaller.

+1

Though I'm not sure that will sell enough Butterball brand turkeys and Stove Top brand stuffing...

[sumgai]

Nov 16, 2012 15:49:38 GMT -5 4real said:

.....

Not sure about the 'rash' of child stars aout, but for sure there is a lot of talent out there.

When you think about it, you've never heard of anyone picking up an instrument at say, 50 or 60 years of age, and then becoming an overnight sensation, raking in the big bux and the big jubblies. When you think that has happened, looking at the little man behind the curtain reveals someone who's been playing for several decades, and has finally risen to the top of the churn, whether by pure luck or hard work, it makes no difference - all that counts here is that he (or she) is actually quite experienced, and has probably been playing since childhood... at least off and on, perhaps not seriously at the beginning.

Contrast that with your "child star" syndrome. In fact, these are the same caliber musicians as the old fart I just discussed, but 'discovered' before any aging could take place. Talent, sure... able to keep a cool head under fire, yep.... experienced in the way of the world and in the music business, BEEP! uh huh, no can do.

But to make up for that, there's always YouTube, and some doting parent, or boyfriend/girlfriend that wants to 'do you a favor', or perhaps an over-adoring fan who also things he's doing you a favor. I do admit, however, that some of these youngsters are definitely on board with shameless self-promotion, such as one of my favorites, Desiree Bassett. The girl's going places, make no mistake, and Lawd help the poor fool who gets in her way as she heads towards the top of the crop. I for one admire that kind of perserverance as well as forward-thinking planning for the future, but all the more so in a youngster that we tend to pigeon-hole as being not-yet-ready-for-prime-time. Well, I hate to say it, but at least for me, my shot at prime time came and went long before I got out of high school, and I didn't even know it. I've met countless musicians, some of them pretty good at their craft, who are in the same boat, and don't even know it.... and would argue with me if I mentioned it to them (so I don't).

So back to the YouTube. It's here for a reason, and as far as I can discern, that reason is to shake up everything we know about how we interact, both personally and in wide-audience contact situations. To these tired old eyes, it sure looks like everything I ever knew or heard about how to fight your way to the top has been rendered null and void, thanks to both YT and smartphones with decent video capabilities. Neither of which cost a kid more than two or three days lunch money, that's how economies of scale have laid low the MAFIAA (who are too stupid to admit it).

But when all is said and done, it's the ability to evoke a feeling within the listener that gets the paycheck. For me, I liked her voice, it did something for me that happens rarely when I listen to vocalists. (Jon G usually does the same thing.) However, I'll be truthful and admit that I've not investigated any further as to whether this was just a flash in the pan, or a random example of continuously good output - that remains to be seen.

HTH





sumgai

[4real]

As I say, not sure about it. There is no doubt that there are 'kids' who really do the work and get results...Sungai Jung is an example that has influenced countless to pursue that kind of guitar playing (he does not write the arrangments and that in turn have switched people on to the guys that come up with this stuff...). Similarly many of these vocalists and other artists.

Thing is that 'kids' who learn in a tradtional 'classical' mode or instrument seriously (as in the structured exams and etudes and technical work) if they start you, will ahve the technical abilities to impress in that way. Typically in the guitar, you don't get that kind of structure, material or direction that if started a 5yo would make you something of a 'monster' and learn faster...if a child has the enthusiasim and will to do that. It's not just 'talent' but putting in the time and likely a bit of guidance and support.

It is odd though that genrally attention is not given, or the talent out there does not wish to take up the opportunity to show it that are in fact 'older' and equally talented after many, many years on their instrument...the world it seems belongs to the 'young'. If an atrractive young girl, you will get attention, perhaps not in the way wanted for the talents they are trying to show.

Much of YT is a bit of a 'look at me' circus and home for trolls it seems...

[Deleted]

Nov 16, 2012 11:40:03 GMT -5 4real said:

YouTube Wonderkind John Gomm is still touring (I saw and met him early in the year here in Melbourne) and posted this, this morning...

Jon Gomm;

Here in Bosnia, talking to people who were children dodging air raids or men forced to take up arms during the war here in the 1990's, who saw soldiers fighting their own and selling guns to their enemies, while the history books tell of good versus evil, listening to them all recount how religious leaders and politicians stirred up hate that set brother against brother and neighbour against neighbour, and seeing a country now segregated by race, seeing a city now bursting with regrowth but still stricken with poverty, while newly rebuilt churches are dripping with millions-worth of gold and priests drive BMWs and say "forgive, but never forget", and where criminals carry weapons of war, and all the while the everyday people of Bosnia are so generous, and so kind, and so cultured and strong.

And I look at Gaza and Syria today, I look at the fear seething from our world's media, and the mistrust of whole groups, countries and regions, all of which are just populated with people, just people. And I wonder if we just gagged every politician and every priest in the world instead of trusting them to solve problems they caused in the first place, how long it would take before peace broke out.

And I wonder if we will ever learn.

Unfortunately this is a very simplistic view which IMHO does more harm than good. This war was explicitly conceived/designed/planed/executed in the very higher levels thousands of kilometers away from Sarajevo/Beograd/Zagreb and of course irrelevant of how many churches there are in Bosnia or which model of BMW they prefer.
But John Gomm's stance is the lesser of two evils. We also had Bono of U2 who for his own personal interests and promotion and trying to fit with the pseudo-leftist pro-muslim trend of his time, clearly took side, and thus effectively threw petrol into the fire.
And i am saying pseudo-leftist, because yugoslavia prior to its execution was the single *real* "socialist" country on "western"-european soil. How can a "leftist" promote his "leftism" by helping destroying "left" countries, will be judged by the historians in the future (if all evidence are not destroyed by then).
A quick "reality-check" about that war, would be to consider what happened 4 years later in Kosovo. (500-600km south-east from Sarajevo). The bosnian masks completely fell in kosovo.

[4real]

It's complicated obviously...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War

There certainly is a lot of political, religious and ethnic reasons for ti by the looks of it. Jon does not pretend to be any kind of "star", he travels with locals in their car and meets people along the way and generally, his observations are his own from the impressions that he gets for a short time in a place nd an awareness of things around him. There are a lot of similarities political and teritorial and religious and parralels with tendsion in the middle east I would suggest, much of it around much of the same 'issues' cited.

It was interesting to note that besides all the direct casualties and massive wounding and loss of infrastructure (hence the comments on gold and bmw that does not help that side of things perhaps)...2.2 million were displaced from that conflict. Most I am sure were "just people" who would have been quite happy to live in an area that from what I read, was proud of their cultural diversity and did not seek the segregation that a lot of this seems to ahve been about...something to study, I am sure I know even less than Jon...

[Deleted]

Frankly wikipedia sucks big time in the politics dept. Anything "historical" or "political" always has to comply with the "basic" line, if you know what I mean. Basically it is a effective instrument in the hands of the ones in power. (and when i say power of course i don't mean anything within a radius of 1000 km from Belgrade/Sarajevo).
As for the advertized "diversity" of Bosnia, personally i have not found any diversity from Croatia in the west to the Bulgarian cities of black sea in the east. As an example, Croats can communicate (even talk) with Bulgarians without major issues. Same culture, similar language.

[4real]

Well, i'd started a brief background from area of Sarajevo which cited a range of mosques and churches and such all in close proximity.

My perspective is from outside, but I live ina country that is extremely secular and tolerant of all such potential 'divisions' with very little animosity of segregation. I worked for instance in an environment that was largely islamic (including through 9/11) but had every kind of race and culture throughout the organisation. My best friend back in town s macedonian, I was asked if I were greek only last week when I was hanging out with 'tony' who was fishing for calamari. I lived twenty years where most of my deighbours were vietnamese.

What I've observed is that, except for a bit of baggage and damage (most come here cause of the strife where they come from) once you strip away the political and religious divides (and weapons, etc) in a culture that is safe and takes pride in diversity (not assimilation) and where religion if any is a very private notion if a factor at all. We've never had a civil war, we are still a colony effectively (in the most vague way) but have consistently knocked back becoming a 'republic' or strong notions of patriotisim (in that political way, not in national identity) as well, though one day it is likely to happen. A fear is that we may become more like america for instance in terms of a 'presidential leader' over a cooperative elected governmeth that also has a large diversity of gender, sexuality and such...

So, a little of the background and lens that I am seeing things through from a far....and from observations I've observed once people are free and all these kidns of things fade away to largely insignificance and people can realte to one another as people, not in a 'traibal' segrative or other divides.

Personally, I've even more contentious and gold and BMW's really are abbhorrent in that kind of context, stated aim and in direct contrary to the 'doctrines' they preach...and further, a direct cause of many of these kinds of 'conflicts' based purely on personal 'faith' or the hunger for power. Most people are innocent of most of this and potential victims or refugees. We get the direct fall out here in that department from teh wars in the middle east at the moment with thousands being further victimised and dying trying to reach Oz in rickity sinking boats.

Anyway, to my credit, as insufficient as wiki might be, it is an overview because i tried to be a little more informed and verify if the clashes that I am old enough to have lived through, were not about segregation, ethinic cleansing, war crimes and religious and 'trible' in nature...and with an admittence that I am spared much of this and personal knowledge of the fall out that many of these institutions do cause.

[asmith]

Nov 21, 2012 3:36:58 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

Frankly anything written by anyone ever sucks big time in the politics dept.

FTFY

[Deleted]

Nov 21, 2012 4:32:09 GMT -5 4real said:

So, a little of the background and lens that I am seeing things through from a far....and from observations I've observed once people are free and all these kidns of things fade away to largely insignificance and people can realte to one another as people, not in a 'traibal' segrative or other divides.

Yugoslavia was just like that. Much of the tolerance, diversity, "multi-culturalism" (although Slavs can never differ that much one from the other), openness, etc... preached today by the NWO as the epitome of evolution, existed in former Yugoslavia. But not in the unusual and unnatural manner as it is served today (forcing vietnamese, italians, greeks, ex-brits and i don't know what else to live together), it was rather based on compassion, understanding and 1000s of years of common history between south Slavs.

Religion was used as a method to start this unnatural war when this country no longer served the imperial agenda. Simple as that. And according to my own research, this war have cost to the empire much more in terms of funds than one might guess.

Nov 21, 2012 4:32:09 GMT -5 4real said:

We get the direct fall out here in that department from teh wars in the middle east at the moment with thousands being further victimised and dying trying to reach Oz in rickity sinking boats.

The answer is simple again. Tell your gvmts to stop supplying weapons to the extremists terrorist groups, like they constantly do in Syria for instance. This situation is just unacceptable. Just because the empire does not like the current Syrian leader, half of the syrian population must die in the hands of the mudjahedins criminals (in imperial press they mentioned as "activists"), most of them must be under influence of drugs, and trained in some imperial base around the various imperial banana republics around the globe (kosovo as an example). Christianity is being killed in Syria, (while extreme islam is rising, of course by the help of the cave-men "activists"), but hey... all religions are bad, right?

Nov 21, 2012 4:32:09 GMT -5 4real said:

Anyway, to my credit, as insufficient as wiki might be, it is an overview because i tried to be a little more informed and verify if the clashes that I am old enough to have lived through, were not about segregation, ethinic cleansing, war crimes and religious and 'trible' in nature...and with an admittence that I am spared much of this and personal knowledge of the fall out that many of these institutions do cause.

Here is the image of some liberal, modern, progressive ppl whom the empire has endorsed in the balkans like no one else. Of course they are anti-religion as any tolerant, civil, progressive and modern nation should be. Hey lets destroy those bad churches that bring only hatred, divisions and wars!!!! :



In reality, this is just a bunch of western-endorsed albanian cavemen, destroying a church 800 years old, full of history and cultural heritage.

PS

what i am trying to say here: The empire might use religion to start a conflict or pacify a nation. The empire might use the lack of religion to start a conflict or pacify a nation, as well. In short, religion (or the lack of it) can be played both ways by the empire. Just taking sides (whatever that might be), has no effect, besides the obvious one of pouring petrol into the fire.

[4real]

I'm not following this train of thought. As it quoted from me, perhaps you have teh wrong idea aobut Australia and it's position and capabilities. So the 1,000 of people fleeing the wars in the middle east and pakistan and other atrocities...are some how related to Australian's perspectives on the Syria...how so? A quick google shows this back in may... www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/military-intervention-in-syria-an-option-carr-20120529-1zhgw.html

There seems to be a sugestion that we are involved in some kind of 'gun running' or in some kind NWO which I presume is new world order or luminati type conspirocy or something, hard to tell. Several times you mention 'the empire'...exactly what empire do you think my country is involved in or a part of?

As for "all religions being bad"...that's not something that necessary be put into my mouth or words, thank you.

Honestly, I'm not at all sure where the perspective or depth is coming from here...but it does not sound healthy nor do anything other to show the tensions in the area. Personally, I'm glad my country is so young (it's only been on any maps in the last 200 years) that I don't have the deep baggage and segregation and cultural tensions that exist in many parts of europe and that I can live in a place where peoplea re treated equally as people, regardless of their faiths or diet or skin colour or height or where they came from...all of this only enriches a country. I'd not tar al people or cultures like 'albainian' this, or 'slav' that as if all people are one kind of mono-culture and can be tarred uniformly with the same brush...

And, I don't quite get what you are suggesting about my country, but I'd appreciate a bit more research into matters before you assume and a bit more facts so taht I can understand, not just the emotive rantings about a difficult and I am sure complex situation.