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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 16, 2013 13:00:54 GMT -5
This is kinda wild, Hey Jude changed to a minor key, Beat It and Smells Like Teen Spirit changed to major. Etc Etc.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 16, 2013 13:03:14 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Apr 17, 2013 1:08:02 GMT -5
Ok fess up! howdja do those / wheredja find them?
I find them quietly disturbing...
J
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 9:25:22 GMT -5
interesting! Now i wanna listen to the versions where minor-major is converted into lydian-dorian and other oriental scales!
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Post by sumgai on Apr 17, 2013 12:09:14 GMT -5
John, Click on the video where it says "View On YouTube", and then check out the video-poster himself. But there are several other posters there too, all doing the same thing, so you've got a variety of ways to learn how to do this.
gd, You do realize that lydian, etc. are not scales but instead are modes, right? (I'm sure you did, it was just a manner of speaking.) The short lesson is, any scale can be played in any mode by simply starting on one of the notes besides the root. The term "mode" simply refers to how the scale is played in context with the arrangement (what key, etc.), it's not meant to imply how the song will "feel" to the listener. For that "feel" thing, there really are only 4 important impressions - Major, minor, 7th and diminished. When thinking of what scale to play over each of these, it turns out, often, that one can "borrow" a scale from another key, and simply start it on a different note. That leads one to think that he's using a 'mode' instead of a 'scale', but thinking like that is mis-leading. In short, a mode is simple a translated scale - you start and end on a note different from the scale's intended root, and all the intervals remain in place for that scale - they don't shift around, only the start/stop points are shifted. Now, by shifting those intervals via the mechanism of selecting a different start/stop point, it does indeed "feel" like a new scale for that key, or impression. Not really, intellectually speaking, but then again, since when has music ever followed alleged intelligence? IOW, if it feels right, then to Hell with the labels, just play it! ;D HTH sumgai p.s. BTW, on that HOTRS thing... It's normally done in 6/8 time, but Frigid Pink put it in 4/4 time, something that changed the way the tune feels, at least to me. Same chord progression (in Amin), but differently emphasised beat. p.p.s. If we're really gonna take this thing out beyond the support of any limb..... A friend once told me to play HOTRS, and told my wife to sing "Amazing Grace" at the same time. Damned hard to do, but once you get it, oh boy, watch out. Talk about conflicting emotions....  |
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 17, 2013 16:27:20 GMT -5
John, I really have no idea how I came across these. Youtube is doing a pretty good job of showing me stuff that I would like these days  ( sumgai) Cookies FTW! |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 17, 2013 18:14:20 GMT -5
JFrank, How did you know I was eating some cookies just now?  And for the record (that should be a FLA, or at least a TLA), I don't allow website cookies, particularly from sites like Google or YouTube, but I still see those "suggestions" running down the right side of any given video. Following those along for 5 or 6 levels deep, one can indeed find some strange things...... sumgai |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 1:55:32 GMT -5
SG interesting, i gotta look into this, btw, isn't minor a "mode" a major, played 2 notes before the root note? Now about cookies, I have given up the resistance, its like having no car insurance and just watch out not to hit somebody, makes you a better driver as well |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 18, 2013 11:42:45 GMT -5
gd, SG interesting, i gotta look into this, btw, isn't minor a "mode" a major, played 2 notes before the root note? Well, now we're into semantics and definitions. Essentially, you're correct in most people's eyes, mine included. The so-called Relative Minor of any major scale contains the same notes, but not in the same order of intervals, so technically it's not a mode as Modes are understood by the cognoscenti. But we all know what you mean, and I'd be a butthole if I were to argue with you over such a small point.  For total cookie anhilation, look up The Proxomitron, on an Interent near you.  [Warning - personal opinion to follow]Here in the USA, every State in this union has laws that require all drivers to have insurance. Making you a better driver by looking out so you don't hit someone is not enough - they want you to be "covered" even if you are not at fault. Besides, look at it this way - - - You aren't "buying insurance", you're putting a large group of lawyers on retainer, should you ever need them. Trust me, when it comes to keeping payouts low (giving less money to the other person), lawyers will do a much better job of it than I ever will. Insurance companies have battalions of lawyers just waiting to spring into action on my behalf - all I gotta do is pay them a retainer fee every 6 months, and I get all this "protection". (That's in quotes, because all Americans know that protection of this kind is not guaranteed, it's subject to court decisions and sometimes even politics. But that's a story for another day. ) HTH sumgai |
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Post by newey on Apr 18, 2013 17:15:07 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, just to clarify sg's personal opinion/rant . Ignoring the handful of States with so-called "no-fault" auto insurance laws, most States require one to buy only one type of coverage- liability coverage, usually up to some set limit of liability.
"Liability coverage" covers you as a driver (and/or car owner) for your liability to someone else when you are at fault for an accident. If the person you harm sues, then indeed, as sg notes, the insurance company trots out their lawyers to defend you, and to minimize what the company pays out.
Other coverages, including collision coverage to fix your car and medical coverage for your own injuries, are optional- as is "uninsured motorist" coverage, to cover you when you get hit by a deadbeat with no insurance.
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Post by ashcatlt on Apr 18, 2013 17:42:19 GMT -5
. gd, SG interesting, i gotta look into this, btw, isn't minor a "mode" a major, played 2 notes before the root note? Well, now we're into semantics and definitions. Essentially, you're correct in most people's eyes, mine included. The so-called Relative Minor of any major scale contains the same notes, but not in the same order of intervals, so technically it's not a mode as Modes are understood by the cognoscenti. But we all know what you mean, and I'd be a butthole if I were to argue with you over such a small point. Uh.... Aeolian mode is the same as the major scale starting from the sixth note. Natural minor is the same as the major scale starting on the sixth note. The sequence of intervals is exactly the same. The terms are interchangeable. Edit to add something veering back toward the topic - One of my favorite originals (though not really a hit with the fans) is "Dream Girls". At its heart is the Cure' s "Lovesong" forced into a Whole Tone Scale: |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 22:53:03 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, just to clarify sg's personal opinion/rant . Ignoring the handful of States with so-called "no-fault" auto insurance laws, most States require one to buy only one type of coverage- liability coverage, usually up to some set limit of liability. "Liability coverage" covers you as a driver (and/or car owner) for your liability to someone else when you are at fault for an accident. If the person you harm sues, then indeed, as sg notes, the insurance company trots out their lawyers to defend you, and to minimize what the company pays out. Other coverages, including collision coverage to fix your car and medical coverage for your own injuries, are optional- as is "uninsured motorist" coverage, to cover you when you get hit by a deadbeat with no insurance. Yes, that is exactly how it is here in Greece. |
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Post by 4real on Apr 19, 2013 0:52:22 GMT -5
Although 'modes' can be derived, the set of intervals, from a scale (any scale) starting from a different scale tone, it is not really the most useful way of thinking of them...the Major scale is as much a 'mode' as any other, the 'ionian'. To get a feel for the different qualities of modes, it is best to compare them all from the same root or key centre than simply a 'major scale' starting from a different note, as a for instance.
Personally, I have a pentatonic addition kind of whay of working them, though tis is perhaps less common.
In common 'modes' the Ionian (major), Lydian (maj#4) and Mixolydian (major b7) are all 'Major Modes' ~ The Aeolian (natural/relatve minor - b3,b6,b7), Dorian (b3,b7) and Phrygian (b2,b3,b6,b7) .... the Locrian is rarely used (b2,b3,b5,b6,7) because that b5 gives it a diminishd sound and lacking the defining 5-1 resolutions to establish a sense of 'key'.
The concepts of modes though relate to any collection of intervals that make for a 'scale'.
...
These modified songs are interesting, but not as 'startling' as one might hope from listening to a few. One thing to note is that the differences in things like modes, even major to minor are more significant than just changing the notes selected. In minor keys, a bVII-Im cadance produces the strong resolution over the typical V-I in major typically as minor 'modes' typically (out side of the harmonic minor and such that 'artificially' introduce it) establish the tonal centre and so one would likely, to be truely effective, have to alter not just the notes and intervals but the way they are used in these other ways.
Not sure if this kind of thing is of interest...
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 25, 2013 10:55:14 GMT -5
...Not sure if this kind of thing is of interest... Actually, I think it would. Having never had the benefit of formal music education or training my adventures into music theory have been a series of Aha! moments. Anything that may spark another one is always welcome. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 13:57:13 GMT -5
Music theory can be fascinating indeed, but then i listen to a song with just 5 simple chords like this :
and go like : why could not i write this ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 14:01:59 GMT -5
Another favorite of my youth, mixed minor, with major, and oriental punkish-thrash type of thing : brilliant, again a simple riff and melody but so really strong.
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 25, 2013 16:28:09 GMT -5
Well, I was going more along these lines...
I realized there was more to it when I heard this:
It's based on a piece written by Bach performed by Jaco Pastorius.
Then there's this:
I've been able to decipher songs like this by tedious analysis, but I can't do it real time. Sort of like a language I'm familiar with, but not fluent in.
Anything to improve my fluency is greatly appreciated.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by asmith on Apr 25, 2013 16:50:59 GMT -5
Anything to improve my fluency is greatly appreciated. Come on Cyn, don't sell yourself short, you're great with languages. You taught me how to speak Chicago. "Blah de blah, blah blah, go f**k yourself." |
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Post by 4real on Apr 25, 2013 17:41:21 GMT -5
For me, a Young Jaco on the first Pat metheny record "Bright Sized Life" is his best work. Love the opening 'jumpin 5ths' to the theme too...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 2:13:54 GMT -5
Well, I was going more along these lines... I realized there was more to it when I heard this: That is very interesting, reminds me of the neo-classical phrases by Yngwie Malmsteen, identical patterns. Can you tell me when was this song by Pastorius recorded? About theory, and all, i just believe most of music/melodies are kind of ancient, what we do is just dig it out and give it a fresh life. |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 26, 2013 3:23:10 GMT -5
A brief reply.... I came to Modes rather late in my musical "career", but one thing I noted, as they I became aware of them, was that like all things musical in theory, there are many ways of thinking about them. Depending on your particular modus operandi, that can be a blessing or a curse. I can't say with any authority just how many ways there are to "think about modes" in relation to scales, but I'll bet there there are at least a couple of major schools of thought (or camps, or whatever), and probably more than a few minor such groups of players who think differently about them. What all that boils down to is, what matters most is how we use them, not how we perceive them. In point of fact, I have an older book titled 'Monster Scales and Modes', and it basically shows every note of every scale, layed out on the fretboard, and at the same time it labels each scale as a distinct mode. Now there are many more scales than modes, like perhaps 60, or 100, depending on what webpage you're reading, but there are only 7 modes, at least in Western vernacular. Now that said, I don't particularly buy into that way of thinking. I prefer to follow Mike Bloomfield, when he said "it was mindblowing, learning that as I was playing a scale, I could be in four or five different modes, all at the same time. By that he meant that from one phrase to the next, he could remain within the signature key, and remain in that key's Major scale (or Minor, or....), and yet by merely changing the starting point, he was accessing a different mode for each phrase. I thought about that for awhile, and realized that he had unlocked the final door to my understanding of modes. But as time goes on, I find that some players don't get it the same way as I do. Well, that ain't the end of the world, I'm pretty sure. To recap.... One way says "a scale is a mode is a scale, depending only on where you start". Pretty much cut and tried. Another way says "you can change modes within the same scale" - lots of leeway there. And all of that just goes to point out that one mans says "potatoe" and the next man says "potahto".... but they're both eating the same vegetable. HTH sumgai |
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Post by lunaalta on Apr 26, 2013 4:25:12 GMT -5
And then along comes another, who turns them into fries!
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Post by sumgai on Apr 26, 2013 10:31:31 GMT -5
la,
That was genuinely funny! +1 for sure. ;D
sumgai
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Post by 4real on Apr 26, 2013 18:50:00 GMT -5
It's hard to explain why it matters and for many applications it is not that important I guess. I leared every which way to understand and apply such things as 'modes' but there is certainly more to it, or can be. It's like the title of this thread, major vs minor. The variation is far more apparent perhaps in minors. We know of the Major key and it's way of working even if only intuitively. The effects of the leading tone and sevenths for instance, the power of the I the IV and the V chords and tones. In other 'major' modes the 4th degree is raised in Lydian so causes a problem with the 4th chord and the leading tone is flattened in the Mixolydin that undermines the leading tone resolutions. So, we rearely use those things or borrow heavily fromk minor key conventions in Mixolydian tunes which are more common. But, if you are just blowing away over a static chord or harmony, then I suppose it matters little what process you arrived at those interval sets. In Minor modes, there is a lot more importance though. If a tune is 'natural minor' say, with a b3, b6 and b7 (related to the major scale)...then a typical chord sequence might be i-iv-v or i-bvII-bIV...(or in Am ~ Am-Dm-Em and Am-G-F)...all common fair. Now you can call this Aminor...it is the smae notes as C major starting on A, but why not consider this 'minor' and I suspect most do. But then, perhaps we might be playing soemthing that is more 'dorian' such as a Santana tune with a maj IV chord...say Am-D vamp...then you are going to need the F# or natural 6th. This applies to say the blues of BB king say. Perhaps you are going to need a more 'gipsy' sounding phrigian minor for something that has a F-E resolution in Am...or perhaps the harmonic minor to bring out the G# in the E. But sure, there are all kind of ways of looking at it. Modes are not reduced to 7 either, any 'scale' of notes has modes and can and are commonly used. ... The point I was trying to make though, which does relate to all this is, that in these examples the originals have been auto-tuned to a different 'note set' simplistically as 'major/minor' but without regard to the deeper implications. That being, the chord 'progressions' implied by this and the 'cadances' that are evoked in this change. a minor v-i is a very weak cadence where as a more typical and strong cadance would be bVII-i (or in Am ~ Em-Am vs G-Am (as in say stairway to heaven's cadence)). It's quite a different thing 'writting' in a key and understanding the way the derived harmony works to just changing the notes but keeping the progression from the relative major or minor. ... But there are lots of ways one could 'understand' such things and different approaches to different situations. Some are just a little limiting to get to the next satage and so a different way of understanding them is kind of necessary. As I say, hard to explain, but it is not just 'an opinion' or end with the same results or depth of use or how these things 'work' and 'progress' and all those things. ... I got a better appreciation of 'modes' through the Miles Davis 'Kind of Blue' album and the effect is most apparent in the last tune "Flamenco Sketches"...each mode has a distinct quality and 'mood'... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_Sketches... Obviously 'jazz' but the same thing is used by Satriani in his pitch axis kind of way of working with modes and others... |
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 26, 2013 19:22:19 GMT -5
That is very interesting, reminds me of the neo-classical phrases by Yngwie Malmsteen, identical patterns. Can you tell me when was this song by Pastorius recorded? That was off of Word of Mouth, which came out in 1981. This would be Jaco's middle period, as he only lived another 6 years after this. Sort of an early fusion supergroup...if such a term can be associated with jazz... The lineup was Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Jaco Pastorius, Peter Erskine, Jack DeJohnette, Michael Brecker, Don Alias and Toots Thielemans. The other song, Continuum, was off of his solo debut from 1976. That track had Jaco Pastorius, Herbie Hancock, Alex Darqui, Lenny White and Don Alias on it. Probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I saw Weather Report live once and watching Jaco play just redefined playing a bass. I almost went to the pawn shop the next day... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by sumgai on Apr 27, 2013 12:06:20 GMT -5
....... but there are only 7 modes, at least in Western vernacular. Modes are not reduced to 7 either, any 'scale' of notes has modes and can and are commonly used. Before anyone thinks that a pissing contest is about to start, let me say only that: 1) There are only 7 mode names, those we know as Dorian, Mixolydian, etc.; and 2) There are indeed several genus of those names, not just the seven we normally recognize and associate with the Major scale. But these are all based on the positions of each note within the surrounding (or underlying, if you wish) tetrachord, something that we've not touched up in any depth here in The NutzHouse. Suffice it to say, masters of the craft of smithing a tune all have an intuitive grasp of these differences, even if they're as hard put as 4real to describe in words just exacly what's happening, and why. I suppose you'd have to say, this is a case where it really is The Muse that's moving them. HTH sumgai |
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Post by ashcatlt on May 2, 2013 14:02:22 GMT -5
I think I've mostly always thought about modes the way sumgai explains them. It's just a major scale starting on a different note. There's no need to learn new "boxes", really. I dig what 4real is saying here too, though. All the notes might be in the same box, but you can't use the same "licks" that you've learned because they don't resolve to the chords correctly. Or something like that. Voices lead differently and things like that. I am kind of a wacko for diminished chords. I like the dissonance, the unsettling irresolution and relative ambiguity of the thing. And that's led me to play quite a lot in the Locrian mode, and then that leads to a question that I had meant to put in a new thread, but I guess we'll just stick it here: In one new song I've written, one guitar and bass essentially work through the notes of the Edim chord - E, G, Bb. Lead stuff is in E Locrian (F Major). Over top of that, I've taken to playing some three-note chords on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings, but I don't know how to name them. Over the E in the verse, I play a Cmaj inversion: 7-5-5 (E, G, C) I guess that's Em6, except that this implies that there would be B natural involved, which would be a wrong note in context. In the chorus I play 7-5-7 over the E. I've mentioned this chord before, but I don't remember what we settled on. If the B was allowed, we'd call it Em7. It can't be Edim7, because that wants the bb7: 7-5-6, but that D#/Eb is a wrong note. But I play that same fingering over the G note: 10-8-9 (G, Bb, C). That can't be called Gdim7, because the implied Db is wrong. It's not Gm6... Then, just for completeness, over the Bb in verse I play a Gm inversion: 5-5-3 (D, G, Bb), and not sure what to call that... Bb6 works I guess? No wrong notes in there. The chorus has a straightforward Bb inversion (same as the "C": 5-3-3). It doesn't much matter since I don't really have to communicate these things to anybody but myself, but I like to be able to "justify" things. Intellectual exercise or whatever. Any help in finding names for these is appreciated. |
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Post by 4real on May 2, 2013 20:52:47 GMT -5
Whatever works, works.
However there is a fundamental difference in concept and hearing things...it's not just a matter of ariving at the correct 'notes' or the 'boxes'...thinking in terms of the major (or minor) key for which one can derive the intervals does get you the smae notes na dn makes it easy on guitar to think that way in terms of 'boxes' and familiarity which is important of course.
There are though other things that flow on from this different interval set. There are different chord progressions and cadances that flow on from minor and major and the different modes. It's not really as simple as taking a major tune and translating it into a minor one and expecting a successful composition.
However, if you are just 'soloing' over a fairly static chord progression, all you really need to know it the notes and so, how you arrive at them I suppose need not matter too much for that purpose.
...
I come from a guitar 'blues' background and so understand things from a minor/major pentatonic angle and tend to 'think' like that. It's not that uncommon, right!
So, I tend to think in terms of a pentatonic 'box' as the scaffold for which one can add notes to complete most common modes that suit a progression of 'feel'.
So...take Am penatonic...A-C-D-E-G...add in B as the second...now add in an F and you have the natural minor/Aeolian (or major in the relative key). Make that F, F# and you have the dorian mode (or the Lydian in the relative Major). Take the pentatonic, add F and a Bb and you have the Phrigian Mode (or the Mixolydian in the relative major).
To me, this feels more natural and intuitive and more true to the idea of modes and being able to 'change modes' mid stream. It is not so much to communicate to others, it is to communicate to me as a player and to understand how that note set 'sounds'.
...
This is not only useful for 'modes' though but for creating any scale around this very familiar 'pentatonic scaffold'...for instance...
Take the A natural minor as above...
Am pentatonic A-C-D-E-G
add the B and the F for the natural minor
raise the G and you have the harmonic minor.
Musically, often the natural minor and the harmonic minor are mixed. Some music for instance, you change 'modes' depending on the direction of the melody, or the underlying progression or cadances. In this case, when ascending, you want that g# leading tone to be reaching up into the tonic A. Decending, you may not want that characteristic leap down of a minor third between G# and F and a G natural of the aeolian mode makes more sense and satisfying effect.
Or, in a lot of classical music, you might use the 'melodic minor...which is the dorian mode, with the G# leading tone. So Am pentatonic + F# + G#. It might also be easy to understand and hear this as the Major scale with a flat 3rd.
A common thing in jazz but useful in blues say, is to use something that is commonly 'thought' in that tradition as the 'melodic minor' (as above) a half step above the root of the V chord...
So using the above means we get A-B-C-D-E-F#-G#
Play those notes over a G# chord in the key of C# or just shift things down one fret to play over G7 in the key of C...
You can see that, in this case, a 'jazz player' is actually playing/thinking in terms of the 7th mode of the melodic minor...playing melodic minor, stating on the 7th degree of that scale.
So, just the same as is suggested here, a scale starting on a different degree.
I know...confusing, complicated...but that is the way things can go as one progresses beyond thinking simply in terms of 'boxes' and guitaristically. Not that there is anything wrong with that!
Generally, I try and think if going in that direction, simply in terms of the degrees that relate to the chord. So, in the above case, I know that this 'effect' or 'sound' is created by playing lines that use the #5 and b5 and the b3 and #3 and the b7.
So a strange kind of disorienting effect, a cross between whole tone and diminished in some ways that you might like Ash. A blues player such as Robbin Ford uses such sounds a bit...
....
Another interesting 'way of thinking/hearing' modes is by combining pentatonics.
Am pentatonic combined with Bm pentatonic
A-C-D-E-G
B-D-E-F#-A
the D,E and A notes are common to both so redundant...
A-B-D-E-F#-G
^ this being the 'Dorian' mode of A.
This is useful because what it says is that a pentatonic combined with one a step above = the dorian mode. So, playing Bm or Am pentatonic or any combination will produce a dorian sound, but it might lead you to play different things.
I use this to open the door to 'outside sounds' by various combinations of the familiar pentatonic things and to control that kind of 'dissonance'...
...
So anyway...there are a few different ways one might 'think' abut such things and perhaps explains a little as to how it might be useful. There are all kinds of ways of 'thinking' about such things, different ways are useful for different circumstances.
But, knowing different things, can lead to different and interesting choices and some are more 'intuitive' and less of a 'translation' and more true to the 'essence' of things while taking advantage of teh guitars natural 'slide rule' like qualities of just moving things up and down frets (unlike on other instruments).
What really matters is the intervals between a scale set and the underlying progressions, the dissonances and their resolutions and all that kind of thing in teh end. Music is not about 'patterns' on the fretboard, but of how these things 'sound' which is what I mean by the 'true essence' of things in the sentence above and try to think of things like 'modes' as their own unique 'sound' in realtion to a key, rather than a different key starting on a different note, even if that method also arrives at the same notes in the end.
It is a good 'introduction' to these things and certainly, it was the way I originally learned, but it only got me so far and after 'study' I did see the sense of it. All those old gregorian chants and such I was forced to listen to and understand, they did not write that stuff thinking they were playing in C when they wre really in D minor to be 'dorian'.
There are a lot more ideas too. I don't recall or bore you all too muchy with it, but Frank Gambale's 'modes;no more mysteries' is also a good instructional tape and concept...perhaps it is on you tube. He goes a little into how to identify chord seuences and such for which the common modes work that is kind of clever and simple...as I vaguely recall.
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