I dunno whether to laugh or cry...

[sumgai]

On one hand, I wanna shout out "I told ya so!", but OTOH, the news is rather depressing when you think about it.

For years I've been saying that if I hadn't learned how to solo on any instrument after 50-some years, then I'm probably not gonna "get it" any time soon. Turns out I was right - check out this article:

Practice Makes Perfect? Not So Much, New Research Finds

Now I don't wanna turn this place into a ghost town, but I am interested in what others think of this article, and the underlying research. Fire away!




sumgai

[ux4484]

I always felt that way, but my girls proved it to me. Both started piano within a year of age 8, both had the same teacher, material, and structured practice with Dad sitting next to them until they were reliable with me just being near (took both about three years to practice diligently on their own). Daughter #1 was technically proficient, good timing, and very good at discussing theory at 4 years in, but didn't like her traditional teacher, and only ever practiced what she was given (she would buy a pop book or show score, but never delve into it). She also never improvised, tinkered, or just played for fun (even though encouraged and asked to do so by us and friends). She did compose a couple pieces (very basic), but she wrote/played/rewrote. It was like she couldn't apply what she had in her head when creating (major key and relative minor seemed to vacate her brain).
Daughter #2 on the other hand... already had a real feel for music (dance). Unlike #1, she adores and respects her (same) teacher, she also had to be watched more closely during practice in those first three years (mostly to be kept on task).
#2 did one thing from the end of her first year... She would tinker and jam. By the end of her third year, she was picking up songs from movies (After watching Charlotte's Web at age 10, she was so moved she sat down and figured out the theme by ear (correct key too!). Her tinkering, writing, and jamming now outstrips her practice by about 4:1. She doesn't devour music (ala Mozart), but she uses every tool available to learn from scores to you tube videos. Pieces she makes up are beyond her ability to score them without recording them and transcribing it. She has some odd/cool things she does. After learning a piece by ear (or by video). She will play it a million times, and then start playing it in different keys, often on the fly (and will keep at it until she nails it). When I ask her to do that with her formal pieces; she says it's not in her head the same way as the teachers solos. Those are drilled being played exactly that way, and she feels "wrong" playing them any other way.
Both girls are similarly intelligent, both excel at writing, decent at math. #1 excelled in Science & sociology, #2 excels at history & languages. In straight # of hours of formal practice in her four years of play #1 surpassed #2 by a wide margin, but #2 far surpassed both of their formal practice hours in just PLAYING. Sadly, #1 gave it up (mainly, because she didn't love it). #2 loves it... and you can't account for THAT in a study.

As far as age goes... I know I started too late at 15, I would have absorbed theory much better sooner. While the girls say my guitar playing is tons better than just a few years ago, a kid I sponcered for confirmation a few years back (18 now, and WAYYY better ability-wise than me) says: "You play guitar like a bass player" (and he doesn't know I started on bass). He says he doesn't need a drummer when we play (I guess that's a compliment).
Progress is slower for me now... but can be made.

[b4nj0]

It irks me when highly trained (practiced?) classical musicians cannot play jack without a manuscript before their eyes, yet a bedroom noodler can mash along to most things, if not too well on (most?) occasions. My 14 years old nephew is already grade 5 piano and grade 3 violin. I can play along with him, but he's cattle trucked without sheet music. I say to him, "can you play these chords?" and you can see the blank expression on his face. He practices over and over, and now that he has a sense of timing and rhythm, it's listenable. OTOH, he can sight read, and I am too lazy to translate the dots, and cannot do it on the fly anyway.
Then again, practice suggests repetition until approaching some degree of perfection, while inate ability implies being able to turn one's hand to whatever comes along. A bit like me really- jack of all trades...!
Danny Gatton always claimed that he never practiced, yet he played constantly (when he wasn't wrenching vintage autos) and I'd not cavil with his prowess!
I guess there's room for everyone though. Fancy a jam!

[lunaalta]

I think peoples minds/brains work in different ways, why, I don't know.
And so, peoples abilities vary accordingly.
If you are good at maths/music/sports/etc, that doesn't make you better or worse than those who aren't (I'm sure we all agree with that), and those who are not good at those things might be better at putting bricks one on top of the other, or sailing a boat, or getting along with or organising people, or whatever.
At school, I loved music, but was p****d when the musical director (was a big school) told me they didn't need a guitarist in the orchestra, so I could learn the oboe instead!
50 years later, I'm still playing the guitar, wishing I'd had some kind of training in my early life.
When my daughter was young, her music teacher (a good friend) once refused to teach me music theory, because, she said, it would probably destroy the spontaneity I had in my playing, which is why she always booked me to play on her recordings.
I've never had much problem with timing and always like to stand next to the drummer, when I'm out playing. When funk came along, I was in seventh heaven....LOL.
I did read, ages ago, that there is a high probability that musicians will also be good at maths (except when it comes to paying the rent, it seems, LOL).
I like maths, summing numbers I breeze through and can normally work stuff out quite quickly, even if by strange routes.
My guitar playing? Well, I'm not impressed, after so many years, but others consider me to be pretty good. I like to play more with a feeling than have too much mapped out for me.
Although I have earned money playing music, I always deferred to other ways of earning a living, having seen, from the inside, how hard it is to earn as a working musician. I have never been comfortable playing anything to earn money. I much prefer being offered money to play what I want to play. A small distinction, but important to me.
A friend of mine bought himself a Gibson semi, gave up his very well paid job and took 2 years of top level music lessons. He had decided to be a pro musician.
After a year of pretty lucrative session work, he gave it up, saying, although he could play whatever he was asked to, he just couldn't get the feel for stuff. He is a reasonably successful film director now.....
Takes all sorts...........
Just my 2 cents.............

[newey]

The late Stephen J Gould wrote a scathing piece on the use of intelligence testing during the last century, entitled "The Mismeasure of Man". In addition to criticizing issues of cultural and linguistic bias in the tests, and the use of the tests outside of their intended scope, a central part of his argument attacks the very idea that "intelligence" is a unitary "thing" that can be measured and reduced to a single number called an "IQ score".

He argues instead that intelligence is more properly understood as a spectrum of abilities which cannot be easily fit into the "straitjacket" of a linear distribution of test scores. Yet all extent IQ tests proceed from the assumption that such measurement is not only possible, but a valid indicator of something called "general intelligence".

The field of Psychology simply avoids this problem by defining "intelligence" operationally, as being whatever it is that is measured by the tests, but this is just methodological solipsism.

Gould uses the example of people who have an innate "ear" for music as one example of a form of "intelligence" not measured by the testing, and this article corroborates that idea.

Another phenomenon that's part of this realm is the ability of absolute or "perfect pitch". One can practice for years, and practice will improve one's relative pitch. But no amount of practice will ever give one "perfect pitch" (the ability to identify and/or reproduce a note or chord without a reference tone).

In high school, I had a friend who was a horn player who had perfect pitch. As I struggled with my theory on the guitar (I still struggle . . .), he used to amaze me because he just seemed to "get it" in ways that I never could. I recall driving down the street one day, someone honks their car horn (which were usually dual horns in those days, giving off two different notes), and he blurts out " 'D' and 'E' ". From knowing him, I didn't doubt for a second that he was right.

[sumgai]

Cavil? Solopsism? I'd say that I just opened a can of "whoop-intelligence"!

I'm amply repaid by the comments so far, I had my worries about how this would be accepted. Pray - continue on.... any more contributions?

Didja ever look just below the bottom of the textarea where you enter your reply/response to a thread? There's a counter that makes you cut it off at 60K characters - yes, that's sixty thousand letters, numbers, whatever. And in case somebody missed the memo, I'd need not just one Post, and run out of characters that go &*#(!#**@, I'd need about 20 or 30 pages of repeated postings (but never repeating the same sequence of characters), in order to fully reveal just how irrigated I am over not being able to "make" music. Play it? Sure, to some degree of acceptability. But remember that old saw about fooling some of the people some of the time.... However, when it comes to making it up on the fly? Please, yer killin' me here, making me laugh so hard.

About all that I should ever be allowed to do in terms of music is to claim that I can play the radio to a high degree of perfection.

I started when I was 10 years old, on the clarinet (newey and I have already discussed similarities between us, in our formulative years). I hadn't even begun to consider my future career path, but I just knew that I loved all things rhythmic in nature. As it turned out, I excelled in most things scholatic, but math was hands-down my favorite. Probably explains why I did well as an Engineer.

It also happens that I have (or had....) an ear for languages. I learned, from the streets around me, several "foreign" languages, although I have to admit that the Oriental tongues escaped me - possibly too late in life, or it coulda been the somewhat stressful environment around me at the time, I dunno. But the point is, I didn't lack for ability to think, both logically and otherwise. (As my father would later put it "maybe you didn't think, ever think about that?")

The trouble was, and still is, that I love to solve problems. Most likely that's because I also loved to be a problem to others.   As an engineer, that's a natural extension of creative abilities - to be given a problem, and then create a solution. Sometimes out of thin air, sometimes merely to rearrange things to suit the given conditions.

So why doesn't that translate to making music (as opposed to merely playing it)? Well, I think the cited article explains it pretty well. I've had an interest in how the brain/mind works for about as long as I can remember, but I don't recall anybody doing this in-depth of a study before (or at least, I don't remember seeing such published). I'm gratified that "it ain't me", that there really is a reason that I don't "get it".

Now, where's my thumping device, aka bass guitar? Jaco, Stanley and Flea were/are all just octave-down six-string-slingers. Me, I'm gonna go lay me down some Bootsie, baby! ;D

(Side note: the preceding dispatch was penned entirely outside the influence of any medicants! Whoo Hoo!)

Again, more input, please.





sumgai

[lunaalta]

I'm amply repaid by the comments so far, I had my worries about how this would be accepted.

What? By a bunch of nutz?

I wonder what it's like to have perfect pitch........I mean, is it a benefit or a curse?
I was trying my hardest to hook up with a gorgeous Spanish bar owning friend of mine, a couple of years ago.
I was jumping, when she asked if I'd teach her to play the guitar. Now, she was a music and maths teacher (in her real job, the bar was nights), she also already played the piano and cello!
So, I took my guitar into the bar one night and as we sat down, I excused myself, to go get the tuner from my car.
'Don't bother, which note do you want?', she responded.
She preceded to sing me an A...........
Being an unbeliever, I rushed out and fetched the tuner. Sure as bears s******g in the woods, she was spot on, but SPOT on! I tested her on various notes, sharpened and flattened, at random.
Blew the wind out of my amorous persuits, but amazed me, none the less.

Getting back, I guess each individual is given a sprinkling of attributes, from the great salt seller in the sky, and shoved off the line!

[newey]

About all that I should ever be allowed to do in terms of music is to claim that I can play the radio to a high degree of perfection.

A quick listen to Tom Petty's "The Last DJ" will disabuse you of that notion.

But the point is, I didn't lack for ability to think, both logically and otherwise. (As my father would later put it "maybe you didn't think, ever think about that?")

I am reminded here of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

[sumgai]

Jun 1, 2013 15:44:14 GMT -5 newey said:

(As my father would later put it "maybe you didn't think, ever think about that?")

I am reminded here of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

Now tell me, Counselor.... why did my mind just flash on "ChrisK and the art of Zen Zingers?"

[ux4484]

The Mrs has perfect pitch (it was discovered during her tryout for Chicago All City Chorus in HS, she gave the judge a 30 min audition in which he would stop you in the middle of the songs you brought and have you sing a patriotic song or show tune. Most folks like us would sing the patriotic song in the key we're already singing... (Or get the Anthem right, and then bomb their own song). Perfect pitchers nail it without even thinking about it. She was a shoo-in. I made it in as well, but failed the PP TEST)
She doesn't do much with it these days except to tell me when I'm off key singing a few bars around the house. Most of us dregs have relative pitch (once we hear a note, we know what other ones we should hear in relation to it). Clearly, PP is an advantage and gift for those who have it, whether they exploit it or not is another issue.
I think daughter #2 may have it as well.

[Deleted]

SG,

i think we have the same problem : why can't we compose an ultra nice and melodic and distinctive and catchy tune?
IMHO, those are the things that post an obstacle to it :
1) playing the guitar. The guitar locks you down in muscle memory. (was it you or cyn1 who said it here?)
2) being an engineer. (analyzed further below)
3) having no access to folk-world music of melody inventories

1) just kills innovation.
2) emphasizes logic and kills feeling. Why? because science/engineering is about making things, explaining things, measuring things. Music must be smth that speaks to the heart, something that *has* to be mysterious, and has to have the self-destructive notion into it. Like first love has to hurt right? If its a predetermined theorem application with pre-known results it aint no fun right? The risk has to be there. The pain and the .... devastation
3) by analyzing the songs of System of a Down (one of my all time favorites) i concluded that their music was based on Armenian, Greek, Italian and Spanish music. When i try to mimmick some tunes/melodies of them, i always end up sounding like one of the above ethno-musics... Why can't i compose as nice as them? I can write ok songs, but no lyrics, not a bolt-together song that really stands out. Either the song will suck, or the guitar will be so much on the front that it just degenerates into commodity rock'n'roll.

[asmith]

Interesting.

My immediate family is all very musical. Even my mother, who doesn't play an instrument, can sing a little. We all like a very wide range of music, from classical to jazz to folk to rock to heavy metal. But me and my little brother are the only ones who can come up with chords and melodies. Does this suggest an innate "ability" -- I prefer the word "superpower" -- to compose, even on the fly (i.e. improvisation)?

I think half of what sumgai brought up originally is just plain practice. The ability to invent is one thing, to learn to channel it through a particular instrument is another. I've been playing the guitar regularly, almost every day, for more than half my life. It feels like an extra limb. When I invent a melody or a chord progression, I can pick it out almost instantaneously. When I improvise, I hear the music in my head while I play it. I'm lucky to be able to invent, but if I hadn't practiced an instrument like I had, then I'd be stuck singing single-note melodies all the time, doing nothing with them.

Conversely, if I hadn't played for so long, stringing chords together wouldn't have been so practiced in my head and my inventions would stumble and falter and, plainly, suck. My brain's been developed because I practiced my hands.

So I feel the two play off and build upon each other. But if one feels they're fundamentally missing one in their brain, I don't think there's much that can be done to help. If you practice and practice your hands but your head says "Buh, am I supposed to be doing something here? Hey look, a boat" maybe it's time to give your hands a rest.

[sumgai]

Jun 3, 2013 14:16:13 GMT -5 asmith said:

If you practice and practice your hands but your head says "Buh, am I supposed to be doing something here? Hey look, a boat" maybe it's time to give your hands a rest.

Indeed, that's just what I'm doing, giving 'em rest... 3+ years worth, so far.

But that boat I saw? Well, as they say, my ship has sailed.






sumgai

[ux4484]

This study also leaves out something crucial for many of us... Collaboration and Muse.
Collaboration is obvious, working with others and matching/complementing their abilities is
a learning and ability-improving gold mine. Just amazingly small differences in ability and experience
can open your ears miles-wide musically.
Muse is much more ethereal (and fleeting), but many of us have had creative bursts that have been inspired by a life change or (most likely) the joy, desire, or heartbreak related to a member of the opposite sex.
I know a few guys that were borderline giving up playing, found a Muse and (one in particular) improved VASTLY in just two years time (in an ironic twist related to the study; he was always an amazing chess player).
It's funny all this talk of profiling and whether it's right or wrong... then studies like this come along and find another pidgeon hole to stuff us in.

[sumgai]

ux,

Nice post, though I don't quite see it your way. But not worth arguing about, to be sure.

However:

Jun 3, 2013 20:41:07 GMT -5 ux4484 said:

It's funny all this talk of profiling and whether it's right or wrong... then studies like this come along and find another pidgeon hole to stuff us in.

Don't be too quick to demonize the concept of pidgeon holes.... after all, we have to have someplace to put all those pidgeons!



The term 'pidgeon hole' is more properly known as a referant. A referent is method of storing comparison values. Comparison values come in all kinds of flavors, but for our needs and purposes here, the most common ones are "good, better and best". Without those referent points, we could not judge either ourselves, and hence our progress, nor others. While c1 would rather have us all wait until we're old enough to judge, the fact is that everyone does it, knowingly or otherwise.

In summary: Judgment and comparisons are in total lock-step, one can't be done without the other. Without them, there would be no concept of self-worth, and no one would ever feel competitive enough to try to improve themselves or their general lot in life. To put it another way, we'd all still be grunting "uggh" in caveman-speak.

HTH




sumgai

[ux4484]

Jun 4, 2013 16:42:21 GMT -5 sumgai said:

ux,

Nice post, though I don't quite see it your way. But not worth arguing about, to be sure.
sumgai

C'mon Gai, you started the topic. Had you never found your musical ability improved by collaboration or Muse?

I would have never made it to gigging musician status without collaboration. Playing in HS Jazz band and on-off again with several garage bands brought my exposure and skills to a level I would have never reached with lessons and practicing alone. Heck, a few mistakes, and just the humiliation alone would spur my determination to new levels (no one is tougher on you than a jazz band director). That same director took me under his wing, taught me how to read text guitar charts & improvise the bass line to them...AND gave my band all the gigs his band couldn't take. Teacher, collaborator, and (Pseudo) Muse in one.
On my own, I'd still be playing 'Smoke on the water' and 'Live Wire'.

[Deleted]

Hmmm, just reading SG and UX, came an idea... How about , someone composes a tune because he has the need to do it? Not in professional or business terms, but emotional terms... He has the need to put it out and to express it. Maybe its a need that not all musicians have.
Also i agree with UX that collaboration plays a role. Back in my day, late 80s, early 90s, my bass player and singer, although completely incompetent with music, skills, and lousy greek-english speaker (he came from Germany), he had that freshness, good soul, nice ideas, great lyrics writer (even with grammar-spelling mistakes), he was great at painting flyers, disc covers, art in general! I was the guy to take his idea and make it sound good, to take his text and make it correct, but he had the ideas. He had the strength to make things. I disliked all my compositions, which he found marvelous! I was locked in technicality. He was free like a bee! We were like the complete opposites. I was medium statured and blondish, he was dark and like 1.95m tall, he was easy on women, i was more disciplined, but he was always clean and tidy, my place was always like bombarded! We still talk from time to time, although he lives in an almost isolated island in the aegean sea, and haven't seen him in years.

[4real]

I'm not surprised by the findings, but that is no reason not to pursue the activity for it's own rewards and to practice and do practice with some intent.

I suppose one question is to define 'greatness'...

But, there is no doubt that practice and strategic practice will improve things. We are all different, we all have our limitations and no one can 'do everything'...

What we might like to or reasonably able to achieve is worth considering and using limitations as a creative tool perhaps.

One common mistake with pratice is to 'practice' mistakes, rather than correct or expand on technique. But technique is only a part of things, so too are aspects such as 'theory' in what ever form one uses it (I suspect we all use it personally).

Change the concept of 'greatness' and you may well find new victories in the pursuit. For instance, I've always admired the individual voices of the 'greats' and so rather than seek to emulate them so much, hope that I too might have a recognisable voice. This might entail close listening to things and players I admire and breaking down which aspects and approaches I admire in that and applying those concepts to my own playing.

There are interesting articles by many 'greats' out there on these things. One that comes to mind as someone that does not consider himself to be a 'natural talent' is Steve Vai and he has written and I can hear what he means and in the examples he has given.

For myself, I know I have a lot of limitations and yet, I will continue to work with and within them and find a way to improve. Not 'practicing' is clearly not a solution you know, that's not going to make it better. No one said it would be easy. It seems to be harder as one gets older. However, the guitar has a lot of beautiful sounds in it that can be gotten to fairly easily and utilized to 'impress' even if that does not make one 'great'...

[4real]

[ozboomer]

I was going to write another "this is what I do", including a zillion "how-to"s and such... but thought better of it... but I would still offer the following..

One of the things with practice is that it needs to be effective... and that's something you have to work-out for yourself... and it revolves around your preferred learning styles.

In some situations, people learn best by having someone show them how to do something. In other instances, people learn better by repeatedly writing-down the information. Sometimes, there will be a dominant learning style and other times, you'll use a combination of styles..

Unfortunately (for me), I'm not much good at learning things when I listen to them (really handy when trying to learn music, eh!?)... but then, I can easily pick when someone is playing a wrong chord. I'm blowed if I know how I learnt that. Watching someone play and trying to emulate them is difficult for me... but give me sheet music with "the lines and dots" and I can almost hear a melody in my head (but I'm not so flash at that with a harmonic structure).

Half the trick with learning ANYTHING, and playing an instrument in particular, is to explore all the ways you can learn to DO something... and to then work in ways that are effective for you. If you can't read those rhythm sheets with the squigly lines, get someone to play the rhythm for you... and watch them again and again. If you can't "mentally hear" a melody in your head, drop the notes into a sequencer and get the machine to play it "right"... and get the feel of the tune and it might just work its way into you head a bit quicker.

The concept of "learning styles" and/or "multiple intelligences" is something I would say is worth checking out.. Like most things, there's plenty of quackery around the concepts... but see if you can find some clear, well-presented ideas using the Google machine... and maybe you'll find some other ways to move you along your learning path that much "better".


John

[4real]

Good advice Ozzy. We all learn in different ways, have different ambitions and limitations.

I'm not sure what to take from this 'study' thugh frankly. for most of us, we ahve been at this long enough to be 'great' if that was in us and a priority. When I was younger, in my teens, I did the intensive practice thing, 7-8 hours a day, scales, fretboard, chord construction and all that (on my own and pre internet) as best I could. I also played in abnads and othe such things. Sure I went to uni to learn music, but that was not so much about the 'practice' of creating it and even stopped playing in the final year of that course.

And yet, the guitar has been a constant throughout my life. If I were to be truely great, I'd have seen it by now. But still, one can be 'very good' depending on the parameters one might set.

I had an interesting experience the other day in fact. I ahve a new GF (originally from peru, proving yet again that it pays to advertise ;-) ) and as she was feeling a little unwell, I finally thought I might play for her for the first time as a treat. She did not know what to expect and neither did I as I'd not played for a week, it was cold and early morning and not ideal playing conditions...but thought I should. The guitar was even tuned in an unfamilar and tricky C-G-D-G-A-D tuning so only know a few chords and such...but still, playing simply it does sound good and won her heart. In fact, thought her eyes were about to pop out of her head! Not because I am that 'great' but that I know how to make the guitar sound good, a few nice chords and picking patterns and a nice sounding guitar. An audience like that does not care for 'speed' and all that, it's just impressive that simple things can sound that good. Attention to detail, not over stretching my limitation and such is enough. Not enough to be 'great' but one can still sound impressive and is that not enough?

[sumgai]

Pete,

Saw your posted link to StevieSnacks and the Myth of Improvisation.

Just wanted to say thanks, that is an appropriate nugget to drop into this discussion. Long timers here, including you, may recall that I've made that same point about building blocks, way back in the dark ages (when I was still faking being a real musician). But this fella broke it down, and with nice examples too, in a way that really drives the point home.

I'd +1 ya, but ProBoards tossed that out the window. Sigh.



sumgai

[ux4484]

... and then you listen to something like SRV's "Rude Mood", and even though all the licks are familiar phrases it STILL dumbfounds you all put together.

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2013 16:14:17 GMT -5 ux4484 said:

... and then you listen to something like SRV's "Rude Mood", and even though all the licks are familiar phrases it STILL dumbfounds you all put together.

same thing as with SOAD's ATWA. All notes belong to scales/modes that are pretty well common, but the result is so excellent and unique.

[4real]

Jun 12, 2013 12:19:47 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Pete,

Saw your posted link to StevieSnacks and the Myth of Improvisation.

Just wanted to say thanks, that is an appropriate nugget to drop into this discussion. Long timers here, including you, may recall that I've made that same point about building blocks, way back in the dark ages (when I was still faking being a real musician). But this fella broke it down, and with nice examples too, in a way that really drives the point home.

I'd +1 ya, but ProBoards tossed that out the window. Sigh.



sumgai

Cheers...I thought it was cool and useful. Due to forum problems I couldn't work out how to do a proper link for it, but glad you clicked it. Generally this kind of thing is how things work, though you can do a similar thing with scales or modes and the like too and in most genres.

Adam Rafferty pointed me to a different video and saw this as it happens about the time I saw this thread...