HSH wiring diagramm with 5-way super switch & push/pull pot

[dragonfyre]

Hi everyone,


first off, sorry if I posted in the wrong sub-board. I'm kinda desperate because I couldn't find my answers anywhere so far. I know there are similar topic in this forum already but they didn't really solve my problems and I didn't want to dig out ancient topics anyway.


I wanted do install a 5-way super switch with a push-pull-pot in my guitar. I have an Ibanez S with HSH configuration and I basically wanted to be able to have a singlecoil sound on the neck and bridge positions. While this could be achieved by simply installing a push-pull-pot, virtually enabling me to switch between an HSH- and SSS-configuration, I thought "actually, why the heck not?" and figured I could might just have an 5-way super switch installed.



Anyway, I figured I'd probably like both humbuckers on the middle-position, because I liked it from the sound of my co-guitarist.
So the basic idea would look like this:






Now the major problems are:

1) As I said before, I have an Ibanez S. It has a pretty slim body and not much space in the cavity. Which components would fit in it (preferably from the European market)?

2) How would I even wire this up? I have som basic knowledge in soldering as I swapped my pickups myself but I have no idea how I'd end up having a flawles wiring-diagramm. I've been looking for wiring diagramms all around the internet for the last couple of weeks but I couldn't anything close to what I want. 

I hope you guys can help me

Thanks in advance!

[JohnH]

Hello Dragonfyre and welcome to GN2

Your scheme, while similar in some ways to a number of others is quite a tough one because, even with a superswitch, there are a lot of changes that have to happen under the control of the other switch to change between the two sets of 5.

Id suggest one change to the wish list, which is to use the other neck humbucker coil together with M in the top duagram, 2nd from left. This together with carefull pickup orientation would allow all settings to be humcancelling except M only.

I think it may be possible with a 2pole switch and a superswitch, not quite sure yet and it relies on an element of good luck!

You should measure the depth of the cavity and top thickness to work out what may fit.

[dragonfyre]

I'm open for all suggestions. To be honest, I don't really care much about the second and fourth position from left on the bottom diagramm, but I'd like to have something different there from what I already have. I've also been thinking on having both humbuckers in parallel on those two settings or only have the slug coil active. Would either of it be easier? I'd actually like to keep the settings of the top diagramm as they are since I've gotten used to them.

Thanks so far!

[JohnH]

I did some thinking about what would be needed to make the scheme. This is a schematic sketch, which is a necessary first step in working it out:

 

If you wanted to trace it through, the switches are shown set with the 'Down' setting for S2 and the neck position for S1.

The outcome is that in addition to the superswitch, I think the other switch needs to be four poles (S2 I the diagram). This would be either a four-pole mini toggle, or a Fender S1 switch such as is used on American Deluxe Strats etc. It's out of the range of standard push/pull switches which only have two poles.

So its all very do-able, and it should be a very good set-up for an HSH, but its a somewhat complex wiring.

It includes the one change in coil positions that I described above., so that all settings are hum cancelling except for the single-coil sounds. I doubt it will change the tone much.

If you wanted to pursue this, you'd need to figure out a few things on your pickups:

1. what wire colours go to what coils?

2. are the two humbuckers identical in terms of polarity (ie, are the screw coils both the same magnetic polarity, ie do they repel face to face?

3. Which polarity is the M pickup, does it attract to the screw  or slug coil of the B and N pickups?

I've indicated 'S' and 'N' for south and north above, but its the relative difference that counts, it could all be the other way round.

Based on all that, a wiring diagram could be done if you wish.

cheers

John 

[dragonfyre]

Oct 4, 2014 15:55:42 GMT -5 JohnH said:

1. what wire colours go to what coils?

2. are the two humbuckers identical in terms of polarity (ie, are the screw coils both the same magnetic polarity, ie do they repel face to face?

3. Which polarity is the M pickup, does it attract to the screw  or slug coil of the B and N pickups?

I've indicated 'S' and 'N' for south and north above, but its the relative difference that counts, it could all be the other way round.

Wow, that's more than I could hope for, thanks

I have Dimarzio Evolution, so the colour codes are like this. 

It's hard to tell where the screw coils are on the evos, but from trying I could figure out the polarities are like this:

Neck HB N
Neck HB S

Midle SC N

Bridge HB S
Bridge HB N

From what I understand this gives me hum cancelling on the split positions, doesn't it? The slug coils are S for Bridge and N for Neck, just in case this might be important.

So you mentioned additional parts besides the P/P-Pot and the 5-Way Super Switch? If that might help, any other suggestions for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th positions are welcome, as long as they are non of the ones I already have (HB in parallel, switching to slug coil only...). What matters most to me to be able to use one coil of the both humbuckers respectively but still have as many tonal options as possible with that kind of wiring.

Thanks

[JohnH]

The push pull switches have two poles, and my schematic needs a four pole switch.

the reason for needing four poles was to do both of, cutting the humbuckers to singles (needs two poles), and, changing M to N and B in position 3 (needs another two poles). the neatest four pole switch that you could get mounted on a pot is a Fender S1, which you can buy.

If that is not possible, then barring some inspiration (which I am all out of today), something must give.

I cant see a way to get the coil cuts on both pickups, and to get M at position 3 changing to anything else, without more than 2 poles.

To do one step less than that, the easiest thing to do (and a good option) is to use a standard 5 way, wired like a Strat, to give B, B+M, M, M+N, N, no coil splits. Then use a push pull to cut both humbuckers to singles in each position where they occur. So 4 out of 5 positions will change and M at position 3 will stay the same.

Add another PP switch if wanted, to do a 'bridge-on' switch ( or 'neck-on', it's v simple), to get the N+B and 'all three' sounds, which would work also with the coil cut switch.

Wiring all of that would be a very simple job.

Still need to identify the coil colours going to each coil. (ie, is black and red the S or the N coil, and is this the same on both pickups?)

Going back to the original idea. If you wanted the inner and outer coil pairs to be humcancelling. One pickup would need to be rotated 180 degrees so you always get a north and a south.

[dragonfyre]

I can't find a Fender S1 available anywhere on my market. What I can use is pretty much anything from here. Price doesn't matter. Would any of those do the job?

To do one step less than that, the easiest thing to do (and a good option) is to use a standard 5 way, wired like a Strat, to give B, B+M, M, M+N, N, no coil splits. Then use a push pull to cut both humbuckers to singles in each position where they occur. So 4 out of 5 positions will change and M at position 3 will stay the same.

That actually might be an option. Though I wouldn't have N+B on the middle position, but being able to split the humbuckers was my primary goal anyway.

Add another PP switch if wanted, to do a 'bridge-on' switch ( or 'neck-on', it's v simple), to get the N+B and 'all three' sounds, which would work also with the coil cut switch.

Well, from what I could figure out myself, P/P-Pots can only be installed on the volume know on Ibanez S-series, due to the sllim body shape. I measured the depth of the cavity and I have 3 cm / 1,18" of working space there.

Still need to identify the coil colours going to each coil. (ie, is black and red the S or the N coil, and is this the same on both pickups?)

They're green- and white on South, red+ and black on the North. Same on both the Neck and Bridge.

Going back to the original idea. If you wanted the inner and outer coil pairs to be humcancelling. One pickup would need to be rotated 180 degrees so you always get a north and a south.

Okay, let's forgett about it then. Let's just stick with the idea of installing a P/P only and splitting the humbuckers.

[Yogi B]

Oct 6, 2014 3:19:14 GMT -5 dragonfyre said:

Okay, let's forget about it then. Let's just stick with the idea of installing a P/P only and splitting the humbuckers.

Maybe not so fast.

Oct 5, 2014 15:47:26 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I cant see a way to get the coil cuts on both pickups, and to get M at position 3 changing to anything else, without more than 2 poles.

Hopefully this should do it!

This aims to do the same as the above schematic, but eliminate the requirement of needing the S-1 switch, it too includes the flipped neck humbucker:



I have checked over it a few times, but am still not confident that I haven't missed something.

Edit: If it is correct I'll update it with the wire colour code that you specified when I have time later.

[JohnH]

Oct 6, 2014 3:47:12 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Oct 6, 2014 3:19:14 GMT -5 dragonfyre said:

Okay, let's forget about it then. Let's just stick with the idea of installing a P/P only and splitting the humbuckers.

Maybe not so fast.

Oct 5, 2014 15:47:26 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I cant see a way to get the coil cuts on both pickups, and to get M at position 3 changing to anything else, without more than 2 poles.

Hopefully this should do it!

This aims to do the same as the above schematic, but eliminate the requirement of needing the S-1 switch, it too includes the flipped neck humbucker:



I have checked over it a few times, but am still not confident that I haven't missed something.

Edit: If it is correct I'll update it with the wire colour code that you specified when I have time later.

Hi yogi B
nice diagram. When the 2-pole switch is connecting 'out' to the 'down' lugs, how is output made from positions 1,3 &5?

[Yogi B]

Hi John, there is another "out" label on the common of the very left of the 5-way, did you miss it?

Here's the coloured version with a slight correction, position 1 with the push/pull upwards selected the wrong neck coil on the previous version, additionally the "out" labels are now joined together for clarity. Also for the middle single-coil I've made the assumption that black is positive and white negative.

[JohnH]

Ok thanks Yogi b. Another question / potential gremlin:. In this version it looks like the neck pickup always has its red/green grounded in position 1, making it always a single.
It was a similar issue that led me to needing more poles, but you seem to have it solved for the equivalent issues at the bridge pickup.

maybe just let coil B be the neck single in position 1. Then you can move the ref/green back to the right side of the diaram. As a single, A and B probably sound much the same.

[Yogi B]

Here's what I was just typing:

Ah, yep that would be why I would've been splitting to the inner neck coil in position 1 in the previous version, although I didn't consciously realise that was the reason at the time. I currently can't see a fix either without using extra poles, as you say, but working with the premise that the difference in tone between coils A & B is minimal we could roll-back to the previous version?

Edit: And this would be that version:




Additionally in relation to coils A & B having little difference in sound, going off a vague memory of reading the patent I decided to read the product page for the DiMarzio Evolution models and they claim to have "patented dual-resonance configuration to reproduce more harmonic overtones" (patent no. 4501185) of which the long and short of is: the coils are wound to the same number of turns but using different gauge wire for each coil. The suggested maximum range being 38 to 52 AWG which would likely produce a noticeable tonal difference between the coils A & B, however not knowing the specific parameters used in Evolution humbuckers I couldn't assert as to how much the tone actually differs between the two coils.

[dragonfyre]

It loosk great so far.
Just two minor questions:
1) I'd probably keep my Neck HB the way it is. Would it affect the positions with the P/P up? From what I understand, the inner coil of the Neck HB would be active on position 2 with the P/P up then.
2) Given 1), I'd have the bridge facing coils of both Humbuckers activated on the 2nd position and the neck facing coils on 4th position. Is there a way of swapping this (neck facing coils on 2nd, bridge facing on 4th) without any major changes to the diagram?

The diagramm looks really good and I'll probably use it anyway thanks for all your help!

[Yogi B]

Oct 7, 2014 6:08:27 GMT -5 dragonfyre said:

1) I'd probably keep my Neck HB the way it is. Would it affect the positions with the P/P up? From what I understand, the inner coil of the Neck HB would be active on position 2 with the P/P up then.

That would be correct.

2) Given 1), I'd have the bridge facing coils of both Humbuckers activated on the 2nd position and the neck facing coils on 4th position. Is there a way of swapping this (neck facing coils on 2nd, bridge facing on 4th) without any major changes to the diagram?

Well I've had a few stabs at working a diagram that has them swapped, unfortunately with no success so far. The stymieing issue is that in position 2 the humbuckers would need to be split to the 'bridge-ward' coils with the push/pull down and the 'neck-ward' coils with the push/pull up, and vice versa in position 4.

[dragonfyre]

Okay, never mind then. Thanks again for all your help

[doerr500]

Was hoping you could help. Trying to do this mod with 2 5-wire Dimazio pick-ups. What are the colors of the hot and ground wires?

[newey]

Doerr-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

YogiB's final diagram above is drawn with DiMarzio colors, so you should be good to go. For DM pickups, red is the North coil "Start" (usually the + output, but not always). Black is the N coil "finish", and is ordinarily wired to the South coil 'finish", the white wire, to form the series junction of the two coils. Green is the S coil start, and is typically grounded. In this scheme, however, the "usual" way is not employed- so just follow the diagram.

Note that, when you say "5-wire", you are including the bare wire which is the ground wire for the pickup's chassis (i.e., the baseplate). This does not carry any signal, and is always wired to the grounding point (typically, the back of one of the pots). These chassis grounds are treated as being understood, as a "given", and are typically not included on wiring diagrams. So you don't see that wire on Yogi's diagram. Similarly, most guitars have a ground wire from the bridge which grounds the strings; these are also typically omitted from diagrams as being understood to exist.

[thbirdman]

Hello All,

I am currently trying to work out how I want to wire up some new pickups. I have Fishman Fluence Humbuckers and a single coil. The single coil has the option to take output from the other pickups and output it through the center pickup's pre-amp, giving a different resonance frequency applied to the signal. I believe adding a second DPDT switch, which I plan to add via a S1 pot, is all I need to make use of this functionality but I wanted to run it by more experienced folks first.

Fluence has an example circuit wired to make use of this feature here. The method for splitting the coil seems standard as shown here, where the CT lead being grounded acts like the green/red wires being grounded in the previous diagrams. I'm not sure if this assumption is correct.

I modified the latest diagram to incorporate the extra DPDT leads. The orange pickups denote using the single coil pre-amp. Let me know if this will work. If not please give me suggestions on how to modify it so it can. Thanks!

[newey]

birdy-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

There's a lot going on here. We'll try to help, but we'll need some more help from you.

First off, I haven't sat down to vet your diagram yet, but please make all of our lives easier by adding some labels to the switches and to the poles of the superswitch. For example, numbering the 4 poles of the Superswitch as "A',"B", "C",and "D" (or any similar designation) allows us to refer to a particular lug as "A1", "B5", etc., instead of having to refer to "Lug 5 on the left-most pole of the superswitch", or some such. Likewise, labeling the DPDT switches (e.g., "SW-1", "SW-2")also facilitates easy discussion.

Second:

Fluence has an example circuit wired to make use of this feature here. The method for splitting the coil seems standard as shown here, where the CT lead being grounded acts like the green/red wires being grounded in the previous diagrams. I'm not sure if this assumption is correct.

I, too, question that assumption. The links to the two different Fishman diagrams don't seem to be splitting the coils in the same way, although the HSH diagram is difficult to read. (Soapbox time: I hate it when manufacturers try to make their wiring diagrams look like photographic images of the actual parts. They're shooting for "more realistic", but if it were less realistic and more stylized, it would be a lot easier to read. )

[newey]

Also, the HSH diagram from Fishman doesn't seem to refer to any output through the center pickup's preamp. All 3 pickups in the set seem to have active preamps. Am I missing something there?

The basic question that I see from your diagram is: What happens when the preamp switch is flipped such that the neck or bridge pickup is routed through coil C's preamp, in positions 1 and 5, where the middle pickup is not active? Your diagram seems to assume that we would get the un-preamped sound of the neck or bridge coils in those positions, since the middle pickup itself is not active at #1 or #5. It seems equally likely to me that you'd have no sound at all, depending on the particulars of the circuit board for that preamp.

[thbirdman]

Hi newey,

Thanks for the welcome. I updated my original post with a labelled schematic. I agree that their wiring diagrams are a pain to follow due to the "realistic" nature of them. After doing more looking it does indeed seem like this is not as simple as I made it out to be. 

Also, the HSH diagram from Fishman doesn't seem to refer to any output through the center pickup's preamp. All 3 pickups in the set seem to have active preamps. Am I missing something there?

This is represented on the bottom right of the super switch. The two whites at 1 and 5 are the humbucker pre-amp outputs and the green is the center pre-amp output which should be active at positions 2 3 and 4. The pre-amp inputs for the center coil are on the bottom left quadrant of the super switch. After analyzing a bit more what I think is going on inside the humbuckers is the following.

Gray = Outer Start

CT = Outer Finish/Inner Start

H = Inner Finish



Because only the H and CT lines are sent to the center pickup's Pre-amp input, I believe these are the pre-amp signals within the humbucker. I need to confirm this with Fishman to be sure though.

What happens when the preamp switch is flipped such that the neck or bridge pickup is routed through coil C's preamp, in positions 1 and 5, where the middle pickup is not active? Your diagram seems to assume that we would get the un-preamped sound of the neck or bridge coils in those positions, since the middle pickup itself is not active at #1 or #5.

If my above assumption is correct, as well as what you pointed out here, it doesn't seem like the schematic will work as intended. The gray should represent the pre-amp'd signal from the humbucker. As such I doubt feeding it back into another preamp is correct/right.

This labelling of the outputs for the center might also shed some light on how the center pre-amp works. In this example the input for the pre-amp on the center is just jumped to the center coil directly without accepting any other input. In the classic diagram linked earlier this is not jumped and therefore can accept inputs. Also in this diagram the output is orange rather than green as was the case in the HSH diagram.


Edit: More info

[thbirdman]

I did some brainstorming and came up with a (basically complete) rework of the schematic for the Fluence pickups. 

Diagram Key:
Orange - Humbucker CT line
Purple - Humbucker H line
Blue - Switched Circuit
Gray - Humbucker Preamp'd output
Green - Middle Preamp'd output
Yellow - Middle Preamp input
Red - Middle output (before preamp)

Pole A Selects which pickups are being output, with the blue line switching between the signal from the middle pickup or the humbuckers
Pole B Selects which non preamp'd pickup signal is being fed into the middle pickup
Pole C Selects which pickup is active for the neck humbucker
Pole D Selects which pickup is active for the bridge humbucker

SW1, SW2, SW3, and SW4 are poles of a 4P2T switch
SW1 Selects the bridge pickup or middle pickup
SW2 Selects the Neck Pickup or no input
SW3 Selects the Neck H line or no input for selecting the outer coil of the humbucker
SW4 Selects the Bridge H line or no input for selecting the out coil of the humbucker

I'm not totally sure what the purpose of the grounds on  B1 and B5 is, but I incorporated it because this was used in the HSH diagram linked earlier.



Edit:
I initially drew the humbuckers upside down compared to their actual orientation in the guitar and then noticed some other issues with my split coil selections in some locations and I corrected them in the diagram. Also, it turns out Fender doesn't make a 25K S-1 Pot, and as I'm not willing to add a 4P2T switch onto my guitar outside of a pot I'm left with a DPDT pot. This just means that I cannot split the humbuckers in positions 1 and 5 when the switch is up. I drew this up as well. If anyone knows any options for a 4P2T switch that wouldn't require modification to the guitar body I might pursue the above, but otherwise I'll probably just shoot for the one below.

[newey]

OK, once again, the problem was that I couldn't trace the SS wiring on the Fishman diagram. Let me take a fresh look at this. It'll have to be over the weekend as meat life intrudes.

[cartier76]

Honestly not wanting to derail thbirdman's development of this switching scheme.

But I have to praise YogiB, and the discussion with JohnH and dragonfyre, for a marvelous pickup wiring for HSH.

Around April (2017) I wired this in my Carvin kit guitar, and it has been a thrilling upgrade to that guitar. With an Egnater Tweaker amp, I have not yet found all the possible tones with this setup.

Hopefully there is a place here to keep YogiB's final schematic for others. (My apologies if they are somewhere else onnthe forum, I am new here and get lost easily).

[newey]

cartier-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

We haven't heard back from thbirdman, and I still owe him a read through of his diagram, but I don't think you're derailing anything too terribly. I'm not sure what thread it is where yogib's diagram resides. Perhaps if you shoot him a pm he can point us to it and we can preserve it somewhere from sinking to oblivion.

thbirdman-

Sorry to not get back to you on your last diagram, but I'm having difficulty with it. For starters, where is the output?

[thbirdman]

Hi Newey,

Sorry I didn't notice this was bumped. The output is on the bottom of Pole A of the super switch. I actually managed to wire this up though the behavior ended up being a little different than anticipated originally. With the switch up, both humbuckers appear to be on in positions 1, 3 and 5 because its sounds the same on those positions. I guess since they are shorted together at the center of the switch it isn't possible to isolate only one output from then forward.

[newey]

The output is on the bottom of Pole A of the super switch.

Pole A's "bottom" is the common lug, which isn't connected to anything.

Pole A's lug number 1 connects to the preamp "hot" for the A and B coils, while lug 5 is connected to the D and E coil's preamp.

I guess I'm just not understanding your diagram, I'm still trying to complete a circuit. It's a fine diagram, so I suspect the fault is mine.

[thbirdman]

It's no problem. I meant to write that the common output of A is supposed to be connected to out in my little explanation section but it looks like I forgot it. I left it out of the diagram to help reduce clutter but it probably would've been more helpful to put it in. To help make it possibly a bit easier to follow these are a comparison between Fishman passive lines and the Dimazrio colors used in the passive diagram.

Fishman            Dimarzio
Orange "CT"      red/green lines shorted together
Purple "H"         white
Black                Black

The white lines in my diagrams are the active signal from the preamp. These will always output whatever coil split is happening within the pickup from shorting the coils with the passive signals. Coil tapping works the same way as with the Dimarzios, but you just take the final signal from the amplified line. This made it so I could not out passive signal from pole D as was done in the original circuit since the lines used for coil tapping are not amplified. It made the output switching easier since everything is on Pole A, but I was not able to make it as robust as the original circuit unless there is another method that I did not think of. This was the final circuit I went with, and how I think the outputs ended up for the switch positions. I couldn't find a 4P2T pot with 25kohm so I eliminated SW3 and SW4, though the unintended behavior in positions 1 and 5 with the switch up would've made this moot anyways.

[newey]

I guess since they are shorted together at the center of the switch it isn't possible to isolate only one output from then forward.

Correct. With the switch "up", both HBs preamp outputs are connected together, giving you both HBs at 1, 3, and 5.

I suspect this can be fixed. You will need to "free up" another pole of the superswitch at position 3, which means that you can't use 3 poles for the coil cutting and mid in/out. But I suspect some consolidation of that wiring is possible.

[jalfmorch]

Oct 6, 2014 15:56:03 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Here's what I was just typing:

Ah, yep that would be why I would've been splitting to the inner neck coil in position 1 in the previous version, although I didn't consciously realise that was the reason at the time. I currently can't see a fix either without using extra poles, as you say, but working with the premise that the difference in tone between coils A & B is minimal we could roll-back to the previous version?

Edit: And this would be that version:




Additionally in relation to coils A & B having little difference in sound, going off a vague memory of reading the patent I decided to read the product page for the DiMarzio Evolution models and they claim to have "patented dual-resonance configuration to reproduce more harmonic overtones" (patent no. 4501185) of which the long and short of is: the coils are wound to the same number of turns but using different gauge wire for each coil. The suggested maximum range being 38 to 52 AWG which would likely produce a noticeable tonal difference between the coils A & B, however not knowing the specific parameters used in Evolution humbuckers I couldn't assert as to how much the tone actually differs between the two coils.

Just a quick question, in the superswitch, the 2 poles in the left side are the bottom poles and the 2 poles in the right side are the the upper poles?