Taming the High Voltage beast

[Deleted]

Well, you remember the problems I had with EMGs? The hum with them was so horrible I decided to start looking into it. Finally I got ghost (!!) (EMF) hunting, and measured about 0.2->0.4 μT (microTesla) of magnetic field intensity in the rooms where the EMGs gave a lot of hum. I searched a little bit and 0.4 μТ is the limit above which they have observed that the chances of blood cancer start to increase. My apartment, as these specific rooms is some ... 2 meters away from the high voltage power lines, which run at almost the same height as our flat.

Well, I said what the heck, I better keep the EMGs and save the money I was about to spend for the Duncans for a good cause, to shield .... the house..

Ok, I know what we have being doing here all those years, but things get a little bit more "scientific" out there. I guess aluminum or copper around the house sounds ... I dont know. I read a little bit on Mumetal (not nu-metal!) and Giron which are supposed to protect against low frequency electromagnetic fields (like our very familiar 50/60Hz hum).

I told my son to move out of his room next to the powerlines, and go sleep on the opposite side of the flat, (back with his sister, no more teenage fights between the two)

I read a little bit on those : www.safespaceprotection.com/safespace-emf-solutions.aspx as well.

So, what you guys say?

[newey]

Let's start with some science on the topic. The World Health Organization (WHO) states:

In the area of biological effects and medical applications of non-ionizing radiation approximately 25,000 articles have been published over the past 30 years. Despite the feeling of some people that more research needs to be done, scientific knowledge in this area is now more extensive than for most chemicals. Based on a recent in-depth review of the scientific literature, the WHO concluded that current evidence does not confirm the existence of any health consequences from exposure to low level electromagnetic fields. However, some gaps in knowledge about biological effects exist and need further research.

High voltage power lines are another story entirely, but the idea that one can hang some sort of magic amulet around one's neck to "protect" oneself from low-level EMF . . .I think we can safely put that idea in the same category as healing crystals, copper bracelets, and so forth. As P.T. Barnum supposedly said: "There's a sucker born every minute". Save your money.

As far as high voltage power lines are concerned, if it's that much of a concern to you that you're considering shielding the entire house, wouldn't it just be easier to move?

As for your EMGs, OK, you're living in a particularly noisy environment, apparently. Have you ascertained that the pickups hum less if played elsewhere? For that problem, shielding the guitar might help, too.

[cynical1]

Over the years I've worked for three different electric utility companies. While working for one of the two big ones in the southeast I spent a year working with distribution substation crews on an IT project. One day we got into the subject of EMFs and the possible and probable ill health effects.

As you might guess, the 8 distribution electricians, who all had a minimum of 20 years experience, were in complete denial. The discussion went on for about a half hour, when I asked them all to remove their hats. I got a couple wrinkled brows, but they took off their hats. I asked them one simple question: "What are the odds that in any other workplace, with the diversity of racial and ethnic backgrounds displayed, that you'd find 100% of it's employees engaged in one specific task completely bald?" They looked at each other, and it was as if it was the first time they noticed that each of them had only the barest minimum of hair left. I asked again, "Are you still certain there are no ill effects possible from EMFs?" It got very silent.

And they were only exposed to distribution level power, normally about 3%-10% of transmission line voltages. Probably the same voltage levels outside of your son's bedroom.

About the only litigation the wind industry loses these days are stray voltage suits. Cliff Notes explanation, but if an overpower condition occurs wind turbines are designed to send all overpower voltage directly to ground. This electricity travels through the ground...around metal automatic waterers at dairy farms...where the cow completes the circuit by touching the metal waterer taking a drink. Said cow stops drinking, as any mammal would after receiving repeated electric shocks, dehydrates and produces less milk in the best case, or dies in the worse case from dehydration.

I'm with newey, moving is your best option, especially with small children. All the voodoo charms out there to "eliminate" EMFs are really just a placebo. The safest thing you can put between you and distribution\transmission lines is distance. The more the better.

One the other hand, they might have a positive effect on your sustain...

HTC1

[Deleted]

Thanx for your info Newey

Oct 2, 2015 5:49:01 GMT -5 newey said:

As for your EMGs, OK, you're living in a particularly noisy environment, apparently. Have you ascertained that the pickups hum less if played elsewhere? For that problem, shielding the guitar might help, too.

Yes the pups hum less if played in another room. Shielding the guitar IMHO won't benefit anything, all hum is picked up by the EMGs not any elements in the cavity, EMGs have unbalanced coils by design, and also EMGs have conductive covers, which means that *some* EMF passes through somehow and I wanna chase it down. This + all ELM/RF around. But this is not my problem. My problem is those damned 4mGauss might have affected my son's health.

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2015 7:18:30 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

Over the years I've worked for three different electric utility companies. While working for one of the two big ones in the southeast I spent a year working with distribution substation crews on an IT project. One day we got into the subject of EMFs and the possible and probable ill health effects.

As you might guess, the 8 distribution electricians, who all had a minimum of 20 years experience, were in complete denial. The discussion went on for about a half hour, when I asked them all to remove their hats. I got a couple wrinkled brows, but they took off their hats. I asked them one simple question: "What are the odds that in any other workplace, with the diversity of racial and ethnic backgrounds displayed, that you'd find 100% of it's employees engaged in one specific task completely bald?" They looked at each other, and it was as if it was the first time they noticed that each of them had only the barest minimum of hair left. I asked again, "Are you still certain there are no ill effects possible from EMFs?" It got very silent.

And they were only exposed to distribution level power, normally about 3%-10% of transmission line voltages. Probably the same voltage levels outside of your son's bedroom.

About the only litigation the wind industry loses these days are stray voltage suits. Cliff Notes explanation, but if an overpower condition occurs wind turbines are designed to send all overpower voltage directly to ground. This electricity travels through the ground...around metal automatic waterers at dairy farms...where the cow completes the circuit by touching the metal waterer taking a drink. Said cow stops drinking, as any mammal would after receiving repeated electric shocks, dehydrates and produces less milk in the best case, or dies in the worse case from dehydration.

I'm with newey, moving is your best option, especially with small children. All the voodoo charms out there to "eliminate" EMFs are really just a placebo. The safest thing you can put between you and distribution\transmission lines is distance. The more the better.

One the other hand, they might have a positive effect on your sustain...

HTC1

aha, so 4mGauss is huge right? $%^%%$& those stupid lines are 2 meters from our balcony ...... the house next to us is even worse, since they have both the distribution lines + the main power lines....

[cynical1]

Remember, most of this stuff is slanted in favor of the electric utilities, with about as much science as Republicans are famous for in this country.  For all intents and purposes, this link; Table of Safety Distances from Various EMF Sources should give you safe distances, or read as "distances you can litigate with"...

Most of this information, disinformation and conjecture all revolves around the fact that to remediate these issue for the general public would involve more money than the utilities could or would spend to do so.  Safe distances are mostly a compromise and existing facilities are almost always grandfathered when new regulations go into effect.

Again, if you can move, it's the safest option.

HTC1

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2015 9:14:45 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

Remember, most of this stuff is slanted in favor of the electric utilities, with about as much science as Republicans are famous for in this country.  For all intents and purposes, this link; Table of Safety Distances from Various EMF Sources should give you safe distances, or read as "distances you can litigate with"...

Most of this information, disinformation and conjecture all revolves around the fact that to remediate these issue for the general public would involve more money than the utilities could or would spend to do so.  Safe distances are mostly a compromise and existing facilities are almost always grandfathered when new regulations go into effect.

Again, if you can move, it's the safest option.

HTC1

thanx a lot for the info man, I just pray my son didn't live in this room for long. Its only been 1-2 years. I will measure again this evening.

[Deleted]

I just kept measuring the house, in all 3 axis's, in the house it is worst case sqrt(x^2 + y^2 + z^2) = 2.4 mG and about 1.5 mG in the morning.
Then I went to the street, in our street, unfortunately it goes well above 3mG at ground level, along the length of the street.

I just found out a company from my univ town, and they ask about 150 EUR to do full measurement during the day. I guess we must do it to get an accurate average, in all rooms.

[Deleted]

My friends, it seems you know pretty well what you are talking about.

Now the question : (it is hard to move at the moment) : IS THERE A RELIABLE SHIELDING METHOD against ELF EMF? about RF EMF?

What are those measurements at your premises ? (didnt do any RF measurement yet)

[newey]

I'll leave you with Cyn1's expertise on the question of health effects. As for the pickups:

Yes the pups hum less if played in another room. Shielding the guitar IMHO won't benefit anything, all hum is picked up by the EMGs not any elements in the cavity

The same is true of any pickups on any guitar. It's the pickups that are going to generate the noise. When shielding is effective for single-coil Strat pickups, it's shielding the pickup cavity, not the control cavity, that will make a difference. The pots, etc contribute minimally, if at all, to noise.

The idea is that we can't do anything about the upper face of the pickup, as we need that to be inducing a current from the vibration of the strings. But we can shield the sides and bottom of the coils by shielding the cavity, thus minimizing their ability to pick up noise. We could also shield it by wrapping the coils themselves, but that will alter the magnetic field of the coils and potentially dull the tone.

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2015 8:08:51 GMT -5 newey said:

I'll leave you with Cyn1's expertise on the question of health effects. As for the pickups:

Yes the pups hum less if played in another room. Shielding the guitar IMHO won't benefit anything, all hum is picked up by the EMGs not any elements in the cavity

The same is true of any pickups on any guitar. It's the pickups that are going to generate the noise. When shielding is effective for single-coil Strat pickups, it's shielding the pickup cavity, not the control cavity, that will make a difference. The pots, etc contribute minimally, if at all, to noise.

The idea is that we can't do anything about the upper face of the pickup, as we need that to be inducing a current from the vibration of the strings. But we can shield the sides and bottom of the coils by shielding the cavity, thus minimizing their ability to pick up noise. We could also shield it by wrapping the coils themselves, but that will alter the magnetic field of the coils and potentially dull the tone.

Hi Newey, Most EMGs have internal shielding, here is their answer of their tech dept :

EMG tech:

Hi;



So this only happens at night, to pups that have conductive covers? You may have something in your playing space that emits EMF during the evenings. Your other guitars are quiet because the pup covers are not conductive, and you have the strings on them grounded. Are you playing in front of a computer? Is the noise directional?



Thanks,

Me:

So you think the covers of my EMGs are conductive? they are not metal. I will check the conductivity of the covers later when I get home in the evening.
Yes, the noise is directional, I can prevent the noise if I have the guitar perpendicular to the ground and at a specific angle. When I turn 90 degrees on the vertical axis or turn the guitar to look upwards or downwards (parallel to the floor/ceiling) then hells breaks loose.
I don't play in front of a computer. Just a boss me-25 with headphones or straight to a crate 40.

In the mornings the extra hum is there when I turn the guitar to look upwards, but not so much. The 60 is slightly more quiet than the 81.

Please help!! And thanx!

EMG tech:

No, I know that the covers are conductive. It’s part of the internal shielding process. It’s why the noise is directional; the pup covers are sensitive to EMF that’s being emitted in your area. The fact that it’s more prevalent at night makes me believe that you may have a cell tower or similar device in your area, and there’s nothing I can do about it.



I apologize for not being more helpful,

Me:

I just tested conductivity of the EMG covers last night, and to be frank I didn't get any conductivity. Must be the epoxy on the outer layer.

Anyways, under those circumstances, would EMG 81-x make more sense?

And smth else, I better solve the problem with the EMF, I will strart chasing the source.
I didn't find any cell telephony antenna under 250 meters from my house.

*BUT* in 500 meters from my house lies the .... Department (Ministry) of Defense of Greece!!!
That could be related?

I will download an android app for the start.

Again, thank you so much, and please tell me if EMG X will solve the problem.

EMG Tech:

No, there’s conductivity, but the process is proprietary in nature. The 81X will give you extra headroom, but that will not help the EMF at night.

[cynical1]

The whole thing about EMFs\EMRs\ELFs...etc... is that there is more to it than just one thing to point at and say "FIX THIS". These "radiations" come in several flavors, and how people react to any of them is also all over the map. Most of the information out there on the Internet is also all over the map, in that opinions and solutions very significantly and some of the solutions proposed are one step up from wrapping your head in aluminum foil to protect yourself and family.  Don't forget the pets...

I doubt those lines are carrying more than 12KVA or 24KVA, or whatever the utility pushes on your side of the world. The real scary stuff happens on the huge 900KVA transmission lines. Still, even if the radiation is weak, proximity is the deciding factor. You can shield a structure from ELFs, but it isn't cheap at all, and only offers a reduction, not an elimination.

People and animals live around these things all the time all around the world. While some people may be displaying a hypersensitivity to them, it's like trying to deny that smoking for 50 years won't be a significant deciding factor in how you check out.  You're probably being exposed to higher levels of radiation around your microwave, but, of course, no one sleeps next to a running microwave for 8 hours.

I did find a site that seems relatively sincere, and offers very plain spoken explanations. www.norad4u.com/home

I don't think you have too much to worry yourself about with the family. You've only been there a few years, and if the opportunity presents itself down the road, it might be wise to be considering a move within a couple of years. As with most things, it's exposure and duration. You can't control or eliminate the exposure completely, but you can control the duration.

Again, I wouldn't feel too worried about it. Just be concerned with finding a nice place farther away within a few years when something good becomes available.  Maybe a place with space for a nice music room and workshop...I'm just saying...

Happy Trails -

Cynical One

[Deleted]

^^^ You nailed it again. That's what I am gonna do. Or a combination of temporarily shielding + looking to find smth else nearby the schools.
Also thanx a lot for the very informative site norad4u . I have browsed over this before, but now I know I can rely on its data and products.

[newey]

I just tested conductivity of the EMG covers last night, and to be frank I didn't get any conductivity.

No, there’s conductivity, but the process is proprietary in nature.

Presumably, their conductivity is "proprietary" because it is somehow "better" than the electrical conduction of others. One difference seems to be that it doesn't appear during testing.

It makes sense that, being active, the EMGs are internally shielded. However, if they are noticeably noisier in your particular environment than other guitars, passive or active, it seems the internal shielding isn't working very well.

On the subject of high voltage lines, there was a made-for-TV movie back in the 1980s about that called "OHMS", starring Ralph Waite and David Birney. Basically, it was about a farmimg community in the US midwest that protests a power company installing high voltage lines. A teenage boy starts a protest movement using "&Omegs;" to symbolize their movement of resistance to the power company. It was actually a pretty good little movie, particularly as a made-for-TV film, which tended to be horrid back in the 1980s.

In one dramatic scene, the kid takes a fluorescent lamp tube and stands under the high voltage lines, with the tube pointed to the sky, holding the other end (so as to ground it through his body). The tube immediately illuminates . . .

Don't know if it's available on Netflix or not, but worth a watch if you can find it anywhere.

[Deleted]

As I gather : "electrical field" shielding != "magnetic field" shielding. At high frequencies it may be possible to shield against magnetic field by shielding against the electrical field. But for ELF (power frequencies) as you very well said, shielding against is tedious and expensive. Well, the problem with the EMGs are exactly those magnetic fields which cannot shielded against using the common methods. I have verified that EMGs work *EXACTLY* like the Gauss meter my colleague gave me to test for ELM. To such extend that I think of keeping the EMGs just as a method of ELF detection! Even if I enclose the whole guitar in a big aluminum box, it will still hum.

[Deleted]

Cyn1, WTF, here is a study from the technical univ of Athens :
www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwjF2-zQh6nIAhUBPywKHeQHBRQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fportal.tee.gr%2Fportal%2Fpage%2Fportal%2Fteetkm%2FDRASTHRIOTHTES%2FEKDHLVSEIS%2FEKDHLWSEIS_2004-2006%2FGRAMMES%2520METAFORAS%2520YPSILIS%2520TASIS%2FTab5628000%2F3_Drosos.pdf&usg=AFQjCNExV5vXfACNCo5z6a9wv9hMA5CYCQ&sig2=__-iE4nO3Kc9mFMpZMSo5w&bvm=bv.104317490,d.bGg&cad=rja

if you go to the first diagram, it shows measurement of magnetic field intensity across various neighbourhoods in Athens, which are AWAY from high voltage lines or substations, and the range is ....

between 0.1 μT with the majority between 0.2 μTesla (what I had in my sons room) and ....... take seat .... 1 μTesla, marginally touching 1.2 uTesla !!!!!

Maybe that's why most people in this city are so crazy?

[cynical1]

WTF was what I said when I hit the link. Everything was in Greek.

HTC1

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2015 12:33:54 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

WTF was what I said when I hit the link. Everything was in Greek.

HTC1

that's right, that's why I explained at least one graph, the one I posted. The question is, if most of Athens is *worse* than where we stay, then what?
I guess EMG must have a hard time selling pups in Athens...

[cynical1]

Athens, like most cities, has an extensive electric distribution infrastructure. Some of it is up to modern standards, some of it may have been there considerably longer. Manufacturing, server farms, sub stations, etc. could all be contributing factors to some areas showing higher levels than others. In cites you may also run up against buried distribution\transmission lines, that depending on how and when they were put in, can vary significantly in how well shielded they are and their proximity to biological entities.

It's something most people never even think about. You can't see it, so why worry about it. For the most part, the effects appear negligible. Length of time of exposure and proximity to the source will determine the eventual effects to your general health.

The question to ask is how comfortable you are living in close proximity to these distribution lines. You need more room for a workshop anyway, Greek...

HTC1

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2015 16:18:20 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

The question to ask is how comfortable you are living in close proximity to these distribution lines. You need more room for a workshop anyway, Greek...

HTC1

well, it seems most streets are worse than ours, and most buildings in our street share the same fate. The idea for a workshop is a very good one, if we can afford renting this one to some other resident and go find smth else to rent. But I must tell you, most blocks in Athens look like that :







If you guys have ever gone to Latin America ( I haven't) I guess this would seem very similar.