Arlo/ Eldred Tone Toggle

[syddd]

Using a Three-way DPDT On/On/On switch you can get a toggle which removes both high and low end frequencies from your signal, or just high end frequencies, with a centre bypass position.

The common value for the Eldred Mod seen in esquires, replicated in the up position, would be C3 = 5nF.

The common value for the Arlo Mod seen in Esquires would be 10nF for C1 and between 3.3nF and 5nF for C2. If you were so inclined, capacitor C3 could be removed from the circuit, leaving the down position being a low-cut tone control only. This could be used in parallel to an out-of-phase pickup to create a half out of phase sound.

You might see the bass cut called the Eldred mod and the high + bass cut as the Arlo mod, from my understanding they are/were fender custom shop guys who used these mods in Esquire builds, but it's not an original idea.





Note: I have edited the above and the below to reflect that the most common DPDT on-on-on switch has a configuration which was mirrored to what was previously uploaded. 

Attachments:

[sumgai]

syddd,

Your diagram is useful, but there are two "points of interest" here.....

One is that the diagram presents the switch backwards; by that I mean that upper-left and lower-right terminals are shown as "ON" in the center position, and that's just the opposite of reality.* If one attempts to hook up all the parts and pieces exactly as shown, there'll be tears in Mudville, I gar-own-tee.

The easy way to fix this is to simply swap the three capacitors and the jumper wire to the (vertically) opposite ends of the switch, and all will be well.  This will invert the order of selections, but that's easily remedied by installing the switch to be physically aligned in the desired direction.

Second, this has been done, almost to death. Our own Modules sub-Forum is a good place to start, but even before newey and I instituted that repository, many (old and probably long-gone) Nutz had already posted this, either in essentially the same form, or close enough for government work. (And we're not going back in time to cull those postings and reposition them!) Therefore, neither Arlo nor Eldred deserve any too much credit**.... whomever they may be. (Not people big in the modding world, to be certain.) 

Advanced workings with pots and such can also be found herein, starting with asmith's more recent entry (although a couple of years old, to be sure).  Unklmickey gave us the glimmering of this in his original Modules section, although he didn't assign so many capacitors, and ChrisK schooled him (and the rest of us!) in how to do it correctly.  I suggest a short search aboot the place.

And that's before you even leave The NutzHouse - other forums on the innerwebs have also been doing this for years, but I'd need Google myownself in order to find any of such.  I have enough trouble keeping track of what's going on right here!

HTH

sumgai

* To search for this specific component in on-line parts houses, look for the UL number, U211.  Most manufacturers, and many parts houses, assign it with '211' as the final three digits of their in-house part number.

** In fact, whomever it was deserves several demerits/negative credit - that switch should never have been drawn in reversed fashion - that was a raw rookie mistake, and should've been vetted by someone with more experience before publication so as to avoid future claims of "but I did it just the way it is shown on the diagram - why doesn't it work?".  (A good place to set up my soapbox about schematics, but I'll step back from that one - this time. )

[ChristoMephisto]

Not including the 3k3 resistor in the Arlo mod? It's in series before the 10nf cap.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 14, 2016 13:45:57 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I mean that upper-left and lower-right terminals are shown as "ON" in the center position

No problem.  All syddd needs is the elusive "Type 1" DPDT on-on-on switch.
www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/guitar-wiring-explored-switches-part-3

Dec 14, 2016 13:45:57 GMT -5 sumgai said:

* To search for this specific component in on-line parts houses, look for the UL number, U211.  Most manufacturers, and many parts houses, assign it with '211' as the final three digits of their in-house part number.

Since you're our ordering expert, can you direct me to a source where I can buy five gallons of prop wash and about two hundred feet of flight line?

[sumgai]

Dec 14, 2016 18:18:05 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 14, 2016 13:45:57 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I mean that upper-left and lower-right terminals are shown as "ON" in the center position

No problem.  All syddd needs is the elusive "Type 1" DPDT on-on-on switch.
www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/guitar-wiring-explored-switches-part-3

It would've been nice if SD had included a link for procurring such a part. No parts house that I've ever dealt with can dig up such a thing. In fact, I can't find anywhere that divides this partcular part into Type 1 and Type 2. (Not to say that I've tapped every resource ever known to mankind, just those who supply to the military, to schools of higher learning, and to commercial engineering houses.)

I must add......

For those who think I'm being a stick-in-the-mud, let me remind you that we are dealing with usable parts here, not absolutely anything that can be imagined.  Case in point; we need to be able to solder to the terminals of this switch.  However, this same switch style (mini-toggle) can have different terminals that can be mounted to a PC board.  This says that a board's trace layout may require an opposing switch setup (the infamous Type 1 arrangement), true enough.  But where we could be at loggerheads is that I consciously filter out PC-mounted switches - I look only for those types that can be useful to a guitar modder.
</clarification>

Dec 14, 2016 13:45:57 GMT -5 sumgai said:

* To search for this specific component in on-line parts houses, look for the UL number, U211.  Most manufacturers, and many parts houses, assign it with '211' as the final three digits of their in-house part number.

Since you're our ordering expert, can you direct me to a source where I can buy five gallons of prop wash and about two hundred feet of flight line?

 
No, I'm sorry to say, those materials have been deprecated.  However, we do happen to have several cans of RF available, as well as pallet-full of old AC batteries!

[reTrEaD]

Dec 15, 2016 13:33:52 GMT -5 sumgai said:

No parts house that I've ever dealt with can dig up such a thing.

I've never seen one either. Hence my use of the term "elusive".

The point of posting that link was to show that this isn't a rare mistake. iirc I saw a discussion of other "types" of DPDT on-on-on switches deep in the archives of the NutzHouse. If I'm not mistaken, the legend known as ChrisK dispelled those myths.

[sumgai]

'TrEaD,

I was just dotting the i's and crossing the t's for those who read this Forum. As we both know, "if it's on the webs, then it must be true".

And yes, I also recall that ChrisK (or perhaps it was several of us in a discussion, who knows?) did indeed debunk the existance of a so-called Type 1. Too bad that ProBoards re-orged the whole structure with new names, 'cause my old list of links to things like this went GeFooey with that new naming convention. I coulda shot somebody when I found that out, lemme tell ya.

I have half a mind to correspond with SD, asking for a source of this part.  Might prove enlightening, eh?

sumgai

[reTrEaD]

O . . . M . . . G
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/post/10754/thread

[sumgai]

'TrEaD,

That was informative!

The take-away I got was that even back then, there were no direct links to where to purchase any such switch arrangement(s).  In point of fact, the last post on the first page linked to a large supplier, and even now (I just re-checked), there is no such beast.  Funny how that works, eh?

ChrisK said it best, in the post second to the bottom of page 1 - Some People's Kids.

sumgai

[col]

www.guitarelectronics.com/product/SWT36-17/3-Way-4-Pole-Guitar-Toggle-Switch-Chrome.html

You're welcome.

[blademaster2]

Fascinating. I must say that although I am not in the habit of looking for unusual components, the confirmation of the mere existence of this configuration of switch is very intriguing - and clearly surprising not only to me.

I have never encountered anything like it before in my field, but we spacecraft-design types do not usually use anything but the most boring varieties of parts - and most switching in space is done by semiconductors.

I feel tempted now to dream up interesting ways to use it in my own guitars. Thanks col!

[col]

Hi blademaster,

The 4-pole switch is available from other sources too. In addition, there is a 2-pole version available (from other suppliers):

www.allparts.com/Black-On-On-On-Round-Bat-Mini-Switch_p_1385.html

I used the 4-pole version for a project, maybe 20 years ago.

[sumgai]

col,

I think the original spec called specifically for a DPDT, amicorrect?

In any event, 3PxT and 4PxT on-on-on versions do come in a variety of connection arrangements.  DPDT on-on-on units - I don't think so.

And that last switch you linked to, the black one? Nice find for those who don't like shiny chrome, but I note a conspicuous absence of information, specifically the way the terminals connect up, per toggle position. I even went as far as 5 result pages deep on both Google and Bing, using the part number listed, and nothing.  Nada.  Zip.  Zilch.  You get the drift.

Obviously this must be an in-house part number, and the image shown gives me no clue as to either the part number or the manufacturer.  If you've got any insight here, we'd all appreciate it, no doubt about it.

sumgai

[col]

The datasheet linked by ChrisK (in the old thread) is defunct. Its new location:

www.e-switch.com/system/asset/product_line/data_sheet/129/100.pdf

[col]

In UnklMickey's post, example 3c is represented in the datasheet I linked above. Is that the part you seek?

[col]

In addition, it is wroth noting the nomenclature for these type of switches can be quite confusing. Long ago, I recall them being referred to as dp3t switches, even though they have four poles. The reason for this is because they can wired as two-pole, three-output switches (by paring the poles). Here's another source for these switches:

alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/28B166/176/DP3T,-ON-ON-ON-MINIATURE-TOGGLE-SWITCH

The linked datasheet:

www.alltronics.com/mas_assets/acrobat/28B166.pdf

Now, if I was buying one of those switches, I'd first fire off a quick email to make sure the DP3T switch they advertise is indeed the correct four pole switch in the datasheet. But, as I said, in the past, DP3T (on-on-on) is how they described these switches. If they are the correct switch, they are a heel of lot cheaper there than elsewhere I've looked.

[col]

Dec 15, 2016 18:26:31 GMT -5 sumgai said:

col,

I think the original spec called specifically for a DPDT, amicorrect?

Right you are. Well, I'm not sure what the OP wants there. It could be the all-three contacts (per pole) shorted (at centre position) version. I guess we will have to wait for a clarification.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 15, 2016 19:05:20 GMT -5 col said:

Well, I'm not sure what the OP wants there.

That's indicated in the image he attached. With the toggle in the middle position, the left pole connects to the upper throw, the right pole connect to the lower throw. Not likely to find a DPDT on-on-on that works like that. The norm is left pole connects to lower throw, right pole connects to upper throw, when the toggle is in the middle position.

Not a big deal to fix that, though. Just mirror all connections left-to-right.

The "type 1" on-on-on has appeared in a few writings on the interwebz but to my knowledge no one has actually seen one.

[col]

Just found another example of the strange nomenclature. In this (page A52) they show how a 2-pole switch might be wired as a single-pole three-throw switch; and a 4-pole as DP3T switch:

www.alliedelec.com/m/d/c767f0db230a4f9f126049e3ee2e8d4e.pdf

Found the above link at this page:

www.alliedelec.com/nkk-switches-m2046ss1w01/70192095/?mkwid=sOi7mmLHF&pcrid=30980760979&gclid=CjwKEAiAm8nCBRD7xLj-2aWFyz8SJAAQNalafu1IUDjrOonCM-5eAbGwNOJqVbIBepQFDQ2yiuIVkhoCJrXw_wcB

I hope some of that proves useful to you.

[col]

Dec 15, 2016 19:18:29 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 15, 2016 19:05:20 GMT -5 col said:

Well, I'm not sure what the OP wants there.

That's indicated in the image he attached. With the toggle in the middle position, the left pole connects to the upper throw, the right pole connect to the lower throw. Not likely to find a DPDT on-on-on that works like that. The norm is left pole connects to lower throw, right pole connects to upper throw, when the toggle is in the middle position.

Ah, I had forgotten about the image.

Not a big deal to fix that, though. Just mirror all connections left-to-right.

The "type 1" on-on-on has appeared in a few writings on the interwebz but to my knowledge no one has actually seen one.

I bought (at least) the 4-pole (12 pin) version about 20 years ago. I think I bought the 6 pin version too. The 12-pin version definitely changed two poles when toggled (from centre) one way, and the other two the other way.

[reTrEaD]

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the 6 pin version you bought was "type 2", not "type 1".
www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/guitar-wiring-explored-switches-part-3

[col]

Dec 15, 2016 19:42:36 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the 6 pin version you bought was "type 2", not "type 1".
www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/guitar-wiring-explored-switches-part-3

That's the one I meant (if I even bought it). But, from where are we referencing 'types'? I was referencing the variations in this diagram:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/1111/4pdt-3-position-switch-varieties

But, for absolute certain, the 12-pin version was a doubling-up of the one you linked in your last post.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 15, 2016 20:40:26 GMT -5 col said:

But, from where are we referencing 'types'?

From the Seymour Duncan link I keep posting.
www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/guitar-wiring-explored-switches-part-3
Type 1 (doesn't exist) is in the top of the drawing.
Type 2 (real) is in the bottom of the drawing.

[col]

Huh!? But that's the same switch (just the mirror image). As I'm sure you realise that you can simply wire to the opposite poles for the same function. I do not understand why these are designated as different 'types' of switch.

[sumgai]

Dec 15, 2016 21:34:03 GMT -5 col said:

Huh!? But that's the same switch (just the mirror image). As I'm sure realise, you can simply wire to the opposite poles for the same function. I do not understand why these are designated as different 'types' of switch.

We're being both precise and accurate because more than one person has posted here that he followed the diagram exactly, and it didn't work. And that came from the fact that the diagram was wrong, and no one had caught it*.... or those who should've known better did the same as you, and assumed that the builder would automatically know it's wrong, and make the correct connections on the fly.

Long story short, many modders (but thankfully not all!) blindly follow what they perceive to be The Truth, 'cause it was posted right there on the innerwebs, doncha know.  Since The NutzHouse doesn't strive to have the web's largest presence, modders generally don't come here first, it's only after they've Googled with their problem that they find us.  A bit sad, I suppose, but I rather like having a small, cozy place like this.

sumgai

* It has even happened here in The NutzHouse, a time or two.

Oh, did you think I was referring only to The NutzHouse, and nowhere else? I meant that the plaintiff was bringing his problem to us, but that it had been created by following a drawing on some other site.  We try harder than most to be a tad more careful, hereaboots.

[col]

Oh, I see what you mean, in the context of wiring diagrams for uninitiated. Still boggles the mind a bit though.

[newey]

Huh!? But that's the same switch (just the mirror image).

.

Yes, mirror-image. But NOT rotationally symmetric. To make sure you've got On-On-On switches oriented correctly as you are wiring, I always check with my meter first (as with any switch), then mark the switch with a sharpie for proper orientation. It's just too easy to twist the switch around, or to rotate the pickguard, cardboard, or whatever one is using to do the soldering.

[syddd]

Should I edit this post? Obviously with a bit more experience and wisdom, most DPDT on-on-on switches have the centre position mirrored.

[frets]

Hi Sydd👐,

I’ve got a few Cocked Wah Arlo/Elred diagrams on push-pulls and switches if you need another. Just let me know.

[newey]

Mar 24, 2021 7:10:19 GMT -5 syddd said:

Should I edit this post? Obviously with a bit more experience and wisdom, most DPDT on-on-on switches have the centre position mirrored.

Nah, we leave stuff as it was written, warts and all. You can edit any of your posts, but please do so by crossing out the original language and then making the corrections, rather than just deleting something that was incorrectly stated. That way, subsequent readers can follow what corrections were made.

Where people delete stuff from prior posts, it risks making subsequent posts nonsensical (and non-sequiturs), if someone has replied to the part that was later corrected.

Just like in math class, please "show your work"