Where we at on tuning peg windings?

[ashcatlt]

Was watching some random video about "hacks" for making your guitar play and feel and look better or whatever. Several of them were questionable at best, and I don't really want to get it into it, but the one thing he was talking about got me a bit curious on how you nutz come down on the old stringing and winding thing. I'm not really looking for advice. I know what I do, and I'm not likely to change at this point, but we can have a conversation. Maybe it'll help somebody or something.

Very early in my career I got the idea from somewhere to pretty much do it the way this dude was doing it where you run the string through, feed around under itself, and then pull back to kink it into a sort of a lock before then twisting the peg until you've got a couple of good wraps around it. But then at some point somebody told me that this was all kind of just nonsense - at best unnecessary and at worst complicating the whole stringing/tuning/maintaining tuning thing. I don't remember for sure who it was (part of me wants to say it was Al Sparhawk, from Low which is the only local band from my high school years who ever really got anywhere), but I switched pretty much right away, never looked back, and have never had a problem that I can attribute to this change.

Basically, I abandoned the locking thing altogether and really shoot to have as little of the string wrapped around the post as possible. When installing a new string, I usually turn the peg till the hole points at the bridge and the string can just go right up straight through. I make sure that it's in the saddle and nut slot just the way it will be when playing, run the string straight through the hole, pull it kind of tight and hold it while turning the peg until it catches and I can let go, then tune up to pitch. I find that once you've got that first good kink in the string, it's pretty much held. I don't have any problem with them slipping or anything like that.

The idea really is that the wraps around the post are basically a little spring that stores some of the energy we're trying to put into tensioning the string. It can take a while when you first string up for that to kind of settle down, but even just trying to tune in general - especially if there's something else wrong like a sticky nut slot - it's like not quite as immediate an action as if that coil wasn't there. At least that's how I see it, and while I do sometimes have tuning issues on some of my guitars, they tend to be for other reasons as far as I can tell.

Anyway, what do y'all think on that? What's your preferred method? Anybody else in the "zero wraps" club?

[thetragichero]

I've got a couple of guitars with the gfs locking tuners so they only need half a wind at full tension. nice and quick and easy

everything else i wrap three times around the post before putting through the hole in the tuning peg. usually can only wrap the low e twice. i feel like the extra wraps give the string a better break angle at the nut

edit: i also don't cut the excess string and instead loop them because there was a time when i could not afford both a set of new strings and a spare set for when i inevitably broke one. i had a rotating set of old string spares. i still do this with bass strings (although i have recently gone to new strings every six months instead of every six years)

[b4nj0]

I base my approach as an evolution of the Leo-type Kluson slot method. I thought how can I duplicate that on conventional capstans? I allow 1.5>2 times the space between machine heads extra, make a 90° bend and snip off the rest. Then make the short length after the bend sit flush to the capstan (instead of disappear ing down that coaxial hole) and take up the slack. This never slips and ensures the spike is prevented from accidentally stabbing a finger. It looks really neatly finished too. I do struggle with slotted headstocks, any tips gratefully received.

It is of note that Trevor Wilkinson designed "locking" tuners by putting two holes through the capstans at a right angle to each other. This is just so simple and it works perfectly. It also proves that old adage about the engineer being the fella that can achieve something for a dime that any fool can do with five bucks. I still like Sperzels though.

Manufacturers don't have time to fanny around with fussy methods so they go around the capstan once, tuck under and in so doing trap the string. Sharp stabbing points, no thanks, but who keeps manufacturer's strings on the instrument for long, so whatever.

I love Sperzels me. I have them on around six instruments. They are superb examples of American engineering and ingenuity at its best. Zero detectable back lash and ergonomic function. I still allow at least two turns on Sperzels because I swap tunings frequently and repeatedly moving that first bend through the hole in the capstan flexes the string in a way that leads to premature failure. Just one turn ensures that can't happen. If just missionary position standard tuning is only ever deployed, then pull through, lock and twist is fine, and on stage in a panic you can swap out in 15-20 seconds- it can't be beat. Is all.

I don't subscribe to this string stretching stuff. Why would you treat your fingers to a cheese cutter experience when you already have a machine head to do the exact same thing? For me, this settling in is all about slight and barely visible curves in the strings each side of the fulcrums. Look at new strings and you can just see it. The string undergoes elastic deformation at first and then it gives up the struggle and exhibits plastic deformation with abrupt changes in string path. We can speed this up by pushing the string down each side of the nut and the saddle(s). This works.

I use some strings (Newtone resonator) that are wound on circular cross section cores, and these you don't cut to length prior to installation or they unravel slightly and appear dead. Once again, a little right angled bend stops the unravelling and still allows fitting to a slotted Kluson. DR Strings do some round core strings, but the instruction not to trim is hidden being printed on the inside of the cardboard packet. That's plain dumb and needs calling out.

All my acoustics are routinely left in preferred tuning CGCGCD and this takes a lot of the tension off. I have done this for at least twenty years and I have zero bellying behind the bridges. I've never had to contemplate a neck reset either, even on my Tacoma Guild F512. It's no trouble to tune up to standard and never unstable as a result. While related to tuning stability, this of course is for another thread,

e&oe ...

[reTrEaD]

Nov 22, 2019 22:19:05 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

The idea really is that the wraps around the post are basically a little spring that stores some of the energy we're trying to put into tensioning the string. It can take a while when you first string up for that to kind of settle down, but even just trying to tune in general - especially if there's something else wrong like a sticky nut slot - it's like not quite as immediate an action as if that coil wasn't there. At least that's how I see it, and while I do sometimes have tuning issues on some of my guitars, they tend to be for other reasons as far as I can tell.

Strings binding at the nut or bridge will always be an issue but excessive wraps around the tuners will exacerbate the bejeezus out of this and create their own problem even if there is are no binding issues.

Locking tuners are the bomb. If you have them and yank the strings tight before locking them in place with the tuners, you can achieve less than half a turn around the tuner when you have the string in tune.

Without locking tuners, this is a good way of threading the string so it will lock itself with a minimum of wraps.

[thetragichero]

forgot to mention the misc stuff: i gently set the break angle at the bridge. once the string is at tension i yank on the strings, retune, and repeat until they stay at pitch
I'll generally use a pencil at the contact points for extra lube but I'm pretty sure that's overkill

[newey]

I used to (as in, when I was in a garage band in about 1971) subscribe to ashcatlt's one-turn method. Of course, back then I was playing with Extra Slinkys and breaking the 1st and 2nd strings constantly, so it made it easier to change.

But I now use 3 turns around, I find the tuning stability a bit better, at least it seems that way to me. I don't bother with that over/under locking stuff, just through the hole, leaving enough slack to get a few winds around. And using 10 or 11 gauge strings helps the tuning, and string life, tremendously.

[ashcatlt]

I usually will change strings the night before I know that I’m going to need them and tune it up a half step or more higher than I’m going to want it. By the next night I can just tune it correctly, maybe double check after the first song, then I’m usually too drunk to worry about whether it’s in tune or not.

The Xavier is taped up to try to stop some pinging on a heavy metal chugging part.  Not sure if helped much.  Does anybody know where I can find a string tree like on this bass?  I don’t even know what to call it.

[JohnH]

I like to let the peg draw the string down to get more break angle at the nut, and then I can ignore a sticky string tree on the G and D strings.

I pull through, make a kink 1 to 2 peg spacings past the tuner (2 for the Hi E, 1 for the A and low E). Then engage the kink to the peg hole and wind it on. My favorite gadget for this is a simple manual string winder. I might make wind above the peg hole for the plain strings.

My LP gets done the same, but no trees involved since they have tilted headstocks.

[newey]

Does anybody know where I can find a string tree like on this bass? I don’t even know what to call it.

It's called a "string tree" or , often on a bass, a "string retainer". which is typically round, rather than the "tree" style.

StewMac has these for a bass, which are of the roller style. The roller string trees are great if you're Captain Whammy Bar, but I never use the bar and I put roller trees on all my guitars, and I have them on my one bass as well. The lack of binding up with the rollers is worth the extra (little) expense.

www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/String_Trees_and_Retainers/Roller_String_Retainer_for_Bass.html

And, I suspect that if you shopped it a bit, you could beat StewMac's prices.

[b4nj0]

The Sperzel staggered height tuners are supposed to remove the requirement for string trees. I found that it didn't work and reluctantly had to screw in a "tree" on a Warmoth neck. A good idea in theory. I also like the (several) string windings to help increase the break angle over the nut. I guess there's just as many ways to swing a cat.

e&oe ...

[ashcatlt]

Thanks, but I’m kind of specifically looking for the one that’s on that bass. My 12 string tele just won’t accept anything else. It came with something similar, but it was designed to break certain strings. This one looks like it would work better. I suppose I could just yank it off of there and find something else for the bass...

[reTrEaD]

Ash, the type of string retainer on your bass will be very hard to find these days. Back in the '60s they were very common on cheap Japanese guitars like Teisco. Today, not-so-much.

[newey]

reTrEaD is right, those aren't used much anymore. My old 1969 Norma had one just like it, but I sold that guitar 40+ years ago!

But it looks like you could DIY one pretty easily. Looks like about 1/4" diameter steel round stock, and presumably the backside has threaded ends with capscrews to tighten it down. A couple of little flanges on the top to keep it from pulling through too far.

Just get some steel round bar stock, measure the width you'd need, make 2 90° bends, use a die set to cut the threads, buy a couple of capscrews to fit. Make the threaded portion long enough so that you can thread a pair of nuts to act as the topside flanges.

[gumbo]

Nov 27, 2019 14:34:42 GMT -5 newey said:

reTrEaD is right, those aren't used much anymore. My old 1969 Norma had one just like it, but I sold that guitar 40+ years ago!

But it looks like you could DIY one pretty easily. Looks like about 1/4" diameter steel round stock, and presumably the backside has threaded ends with capscrews to tighten it down. A couple of little flanges on the top to keep it from pulling through too far.

Just get some steel round bar stock, measure the width you'd need, make 2 90° bends, use a die set to cut the threads, buy a couple of capscrews to fit. Make the threaded portion long enough so that you can thread a pair of nuts to act as the topside flanges.

...only cut the threads BEFORE you bend it...

g-f-b

[sumgai]

Dammit gumbo, you take all the fun out of it!

[gumbo]

Nov 29, 2019 11:53:31 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Dammit gumbo, you take all the fun out of it!

...my job is done....