|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Nov 29, 2019 17:17:03 GMT -5
I had a good look through the reference articles and tried searching up a lot of the links to help beginners when it comes to electrical circuits etc. They are very good and I am gaining some understanding but there is information that I am looking for I think I could only glean from someone in real life, especially related to guitar wiring.
I wonder if it would be ok to ask some STUPID wiring questions as an alternative way of approaching an understanding. I have wired up pots, switches, pickups etc before, but I really don’t understand how it works as much as I would like.
I was thinking about starting with a very basic wiring and looking at all the mistakes a novice might make when trying to wire things up either by accident or curiosity. “What would happen if I put both wires there?”
What I want to do is start by wiring one single coil pickup directly to the output jack (on a strat style guitar) and thinking about what is happening theoretically and also a list of purposely wrong alternative wirings and why they are wrong and what would happen if they were wired this way. Extra noise? Electrocution? Nothin? Buzzing?
I will not post my list of stupid wiring questions until the admin think through whether this might potentially be a bad idea to explore for safety reasons , and that’s okay, I respect that and will not be offended if it’s deemed inappropriate
Thanks
|
|
|
|
Post by reTrEaD on Nov 29, 2019 19:50:35 GMT -5
If you ask truly STUPID questions, you can only expect SNAPPY answers. For instance: Stupid Question:I rewired my guitar and now it doesn't work. WHAT DO I DO? Help!!!!!!!
Proper Snappy Answer:Do a barrel roll! Stupid Question #2:How does an Guitar Amplifier work? Proper Snappy Answer #2:It turns the small signal from and Electric Guitar into a BIG signal. The point I'm trying to make here is that there are indeed stupid questions and they don't deserve serious answers. What constitutes a 'stupid question'? I think they fall into two categories, although they are very similar in nature. - A problem has been declared but precious little has been done by the person asking the question in providing details.
- The question is so open-ended that it would require writing a book to give a complete answer.
I was thinking about starting with a very basic wiring and looking at all the mistakes a novice might make when trying to wire things up either by accident or curiosity. “What would happen if I put both wires there?” That sounds like an interesting exercise but unless you are very thorough in predicting ALL possible errors, it won't result in a comprehensive and useful resource. Also, you would want to be thorough in answering the 'what would happen' part. Detailing results of doing a guitar colonoscopy (connecting an ohmmeter to the output jack) would be important information. Unless your guitar is plugged directly into an electrical power outlet, there are no mistakes you can make under the pickguard that will put you at risk of electrocution. Which brings up our third and final stupid question. Stupid Question #3:What would happen if I wire a guitar cable with a 1/4" phone plug on one end and a power plug on the other end so I can plug my guitar DIRECTLY into an electrical outlet? Proper Snappy Answer #2:You'll get the elusive 'Smokey Tone'. |
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Nov 29, 2019 20:42:54 GMT -5
😂 haha, thanks for the reply, that had me laughing out loud lol
Yeah, I work as a guitar teacher , so I’m a bit analytical and like to bring others along for the ride when teaching or learning as it benefits more people and makes it more interesting.
So yeah, change stupid wiring question to
specific and detailed “ stupid” educational questions
I have been writing out over 30 different wiring combination so far and there are a few more to go , but here is maybe one example of what I would like us to kick around
——
SC = SINGLE COIL
OJ = OUTPUT JACK
BG = BRIDGE GROUND
Example questions
What would happen if I wired SC hot —> OJ hot ?
What would happen if I wired BG + SC hot —> OJ hot ?
What would happen if I wired BG + SC hot + SC ground —> OJ hot + ground ?
Some of the things I’m hoping to learn and understand (I might not get it from these question alone) are
Example questions
When I play a note on guitar and the pickups hears it, what happens inside the hot and ground wires? Is there current flowing through the hot wire? What about the ground wire ? Is that just empty ? Is there no current flowing through that ?
|
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Nov 29, 2019 21:52:06 GMT -5
occ,
Hoo boy, you do have a strong streak of curiosity, don't you?  More or less in order:
I have been writing out over 30 different wiring combination so far and there are a few more to go , but here is maybe one example of what I would like us to kick around —— SC = SINGLE COIL OJ = OUTPUT JACK BG = BRIDGE GROUND Example questions What would happen if I wired SC hot —> OJ hot ? What would happen if I wired BG + SC hot —> OJ hot ? What would happen if I wired BG + SC hot + SC ground —> OJ hot + ground ? a) Nothing, unless the so-called 'ground' wires are also hooked up, as in SC ground and OJ ground. Without that second connection, there's no "circuit" (a very important concept when playing with electricity and electronics), thus there'd be no sound.
b) A helluva lot of hum, getting worse whenever you touch the strings. Your body is an antenna for "background radiation" of the radio frequency kind. Under normal circumstances, you touch the strings, and you essentially conduct your "antenna-ness" of all that radiation into the ground portion of the circuit. (There's that word 'circuit' again. Keep paying attention, there'll be a test at the end of the period.)
c) You get nada - you've just shorted the output's "hot" lead to ground, and that's guaranteed to increase your blues-factor (of not having any sound) about 100%.
In easy-to-understand terms, the magnet within the pickup vibrates in sympathy with the string (which is metal, of course). That magnetic action sets up an electrical field within the coil wound around the magnet (or somehow placed in very close proximity, there are various schools of thought about how best to do this). We designate that electrical field as a signal that is useful for our intended purposes, and 'play around' with it.... a lot! 
And just for drill, I'm gonna task you with answering your own questions, now that I've laid out a basic smattering of what you need to know about current flowing through a circuit. Don't worry, there's no pressure. Take your time. Re-read this reply for hints. You can use an open book if you need to (or the Internet). Others might help you out here, you need only ask. 
Now, know three things about us, and The NutzHouse:
1) We endeavor to help, but we can't read minds. reTrEaD gave you the nitty-gritty on that one, but it always bears repeating. (Just like you drill your students - repeat after me, repeat after me, yadda yadda.)
2) Again as stated, with only one exception you can't really hurt your self when messing around inside of a guitar, but you can make mistakes that might cost you a replacement part. And of course, said part will not be on your bench, that's a given. (See Murphy's Law.) Try to minimize this by thinking ahead, and of course by asking questions beforehand. However, there is one thing that can hurt you, and that's a hot soldering iron. Do pay attention around these things, 'cause it's almighty embarrassing to have to tell one or more students that you can't play today, and they see a wad of bandages sticking out of your shirt sleeve.  
and finally;
3) Most here know my mantra, and are excused from reading the rest of this epistle. There is no such thing as a stupid or dumb question. (Notwithstanding what reTrEaD correctly noted above.) There only mentions of curiosity, and the only reason I know something is because I became curious before you. That's it, there are no other differences between me, you, and the man in the moon. (Well, that last guy might be a little higher than you or me, but that's most likely because he smokes a better grade of ganja than us.  )
So go experiment away! Given the warning about soldering irons (smaller is better in this end of the spectrum), you can only hurt your wallet, and that's about it. Who knows, you might accidentally stumble over something that no one's ever done before. Stranger things, and all that. 
HTH
sumgai
|
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Nov 29, 2019 22:06:57 GMT -5
Answers I'd like to give, but this is a family-friendly Forum, so I can't.
If you ask truly STUPID questions, you can only expect SNAPPY answers. For instance: Stupid Question #1:I rewired my guitar and now it doesn't work. WHAT DO I DO? Help!!!!!!!
Proper Snappy Answer:Do a barrel roll! Naw, an Immelman would be more of a challenge!
It works by burning Ampli's. Your neighbors will be placing bets on who arrives first at your doorstep - the Coroner or the Environmental Police for creating hazardous breathing conditions. HTH sumgai |
|
|
|
Post by newey on Nov 29, 2019 22:11:44 GMT -5
EDIT: Ninja'd by sumgai!
Nothing would happen unless and until you make a complete circuit. If you are truly meaning to wire a SC pickup directly to the output jack, then yes, that is where it would go. But you have to connect the ground side to make a circuit.
Wiring the bridge ground to the hot output is likely to be very noisy. Don't do this.
Hard to say what you mean to do here. Are you connecting BG, SC Hot and SC Ground all together? OJ hot and ground together? In any event, none of this is sounding like something you would want to do, assuming the goal is to get signal out to your amp.
If one is wiring one single coil pickup directly to the output jack, the BG needs to be grounded, always. The two wires from the SC pickup could be connected either way to the tip and sleeve of the jack, the pickup would work either way. However, it might be noisier if you wire the ground to the tip, particularly if the pickup has a metal cover that is grounded to the output "not hot", like a Tele neck pickup.
Whether a circuit is AC or DC, current is flowing through the whole "loop" of the circuit. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have a circuit.
When you play a note on your guitar, your pickup doesn't "hear" anything (unless you're playing an acoustic with one of those soundhole microphone pickups). The vibration of the string as you play, because the string is moving through the magnetic field of the pickup's magnets, induces a current in the wire windings of the pickup. This principle of magnetic induction is what allows your car's alternator to produce current to power your car, and in fact is how power is generated in power stations.
The current set up by the vibrating strings is an alternating current, that is, it's "AC". The current alternates at a frequency determined by the frequency of the strings, unlike your household AC mains current, which cycles at a constant 50 or 60 Hz, the cycling being set by a gizmo at the power plant.
Because, in an AC circuit, there is no permanent "hot" or "ground", no fixed positive or negative terminal, it is a bit of a misnomer to speak of "+" and "-". But it's a handy shorthand to refer to one end of the circuit as "hot" or "+" and the other end as "-" or "ground", we should bear in mind that these are just convenient verbal shorthands.
|
|
|
|
Post by thetragichero on Nov 29, 2019 23:21:22 GMT -5
we will continue this serious discussion after a brief moment of tomfoolery Unless your guitar is plugged directly into an electrical power outlet, there are no mistakes you can make under the pickguard that will put you at risk of electrocution. Which brings up our third and final stupid question. Stupid Question #3:What would happen if I wire a guitar cable with a 1/4" phone plug on one end and a power plug on the other end so I can plug my guitar DIRECTLY into an electrical outlet? Proper Snappy Answer #2:You'll get the elusive 'Smokey Tone'.  |
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Nov 30, 2019 6:19:12 GMT -5
😀😅😂🤣😄
Haha, you guys crack me up. The humour and info combo are much appreciated.
I will give a proper reply later, going to take some time and really think through the responses. Thanks for the feedback .
P.s Y’all sound like Americans ?? I’m from Scotland in the UK. Our electricity setup is a bit different? That’s a whole nother thread tho. And by the way I love USA, I am married to a lady from Texas
|
|
|
|
Post by newey on Nov 30, 2019 8:57:21 GMT -5
Yes, many of us are 'Murricans. But we have many Brits as well, and the Aussies are well represented. That counts as the US, but just barely. And, you betray your non-US origins by mis-using "Y'all". "Y'all" is singular. The plural form is "All y'all". So, your sentence should have read: "All y'all sound like Americans??" |
|
|
|
Post by reTrEaD on Nov 30, 2019 9:46:14 GMT -5
😂 haha, thanks for the reply, that had me laughing out loud lol You're welcome. I like to add a bit of humor when it fits. SC = SINGLE COIL OJ = OUTPUT JACK BG = BRIDGE GROUND Example questions What would happen if I wired SC hot —> OJ hot ? What would happen if I wired BG + SC hot —> OJ hot ? What would happen if I wired BG + SC hot + SC ground —> OJ hot + ground ? These aren't stupid questions at all. They're valid questions related to possible miswiring or failure in connections. But the set is incomplete. You haven't covered all possibilities. With two wires from your SC plus a wire for your BG, you have a total of three wires. With two lugs on your OJ, you have two possible destinations to connect each of those three wires. Plus a possibility of the wire being disconnected. So there are three possible destinations. So that leaves us with a 3x3 matrix of wires and possible destinations. That's nine basic possibilities plus a tenth (any of those nine and the two lugs of the OJ shorted together, as in your last question). Then we can add combinations where two wires are connected together but not connected to either lug of the OJ. With such a simple circuit there are already a LOT of possible errors or failures. You can only imagine how many possibilities exist when we add more than one pickup with more than one coil, switches, pots, and capacitors. Yikes! |
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Nov 30, 2019 17:14:33 GMT -5
reTrEaD / sumgai / newey / the tragic hero
Greetings, I’m back. I’m using my mobile phone and copying the text from the responses into a note and then going through the answers. I find the proboard quoting a bit tricky on small screen.
I’m not sure where to start as there are so many things to consider, but maybe I can respond to comments that I can tell will enlighten me on something.
So In summary, if I want a quick response and clear answer, give as much detail as possible and try to be specific.
Also, it is safe to ask these questions as there is no risk of injury from electrocution for me or others reading, but do be careful to hold the soldering iron the right way round, stock up on extra pots and switches etc, and never ever ever (if it were possible ) plug your guitar directly into an electrical power outlet or as we call them plug socket.
———
1. ELECTROCUTION
reTrEaD said:
“Unless your guitar is plugged directly into an electrical power outlet, there are no mistakes you can make under the pickguard that will put you at risk of electrocution.”
WHEN I READ THROUGH THE PINNED POSTS I CAME ACROSS A COUPLE THAT REINFORCED MY CAUTION REGARDING POTENTIALLY GETTING HURT
THEY ARE BOTH POSTED BY CHRISK CALLED SHOCK HAZZARDS AND THE BLOCKING CAPACITOR. I HAD ANOTHER BROWSE THROUGH JUST NOW AND IT STILL SOUNDS A BIT SCARY ! SO MAYBE ALL Y’ALL CAN HELP ME OVERCOME MY IGNORANCE
——-
2. CURRENT FLOW IN THE CIRCUIT
Sumgai said:
“a) Nothing, unless the so-called 'ground' wires are also hooked up, as in SC ground and OJ ground. Without that second connection, there's no "circuit" (a very important concept when playing with electricity and electronics), thus there'd be no sound.”
“c) You get nada - you've just shorted the output's "hot" lead to ground, and that's guaranteed to increase your blues-factor (of not having any sound) about 100%.”
“And just for drill, I'm gonna task you with answering your own questions, now that I've laid out a basic smattering of what you need to know about current flowing through a circuit. Don't worry, there's no pressure. Take your time. Re-read this reply for hints. You can use an open book if you need to (or the Internet). Others might help you out here, you need only ask.
”
Newey said:
“Whether a circuit is AC or DC, current is flowing through the whole "loop" of the circuit. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have a circuit.”
“Because, in an AC circuit, there is no permanent "hot" or "ground", no fixed positive or negative terminal, it is a bit of a misnomer to speak of "+" and "-". But it's a handy shorthand to refer to one end of the circuit as "hot" or "+" and the other end as "-" or "ground", we should bear in mind that these are just convenient verbal shorthands.”
OK, I PREVIOUSLY WENT TO ALLABOUTCIRCUITS.COM , AND STARTED READING “LESSONS IN ELECTRIC CIRCUITS” CHAPTER ONE: BASIC CONCEPTS OF ELECTRICITY
SO , A CIRCUIT THEN IS A CONTINUOUS FLOW OF ELECTRONS THROUGH A CONDUCTOR LIKE MARBLES IN A HULA HOOP.
FROM OTHER THINGS I HAD READ MY THINKING WAS THAT FOR EXAMPLE IN THE UK WE HAVE PLUGS WITH 3 WIRES, LIVE(HOT) , NEUTRAL AND EARTH(GROUND)
SO ITS THE LIVE (HOT) AND THE NEUTRAL THAT MAKE A CIRCUIT ? AND THEN FOR SAFETY THERE IS A GROUND WIRE SO THAT IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG THE ELECTRONS WILL HAVE A PATHWAY TO ESCAPE THROUGH INSTEAD OF GOING THROUGH YOU. IS THAT CORRECT?
SO IN MY THINKING I AM SEEING TWO WIRES HAVING ELECTRONS GOING THROUGH THEM BUT THE GROUND WIRES DONT HAVE ANYTHING GOING THROUGH THEM, THEY ARE JUST AN EMERGENCY EXIT THAT RARELY IF EVER GETS USED. MAYBE THATS INCORRECT?
WHEN SUMGAI SAID “SO CALLED GROUND WIRES” IN REDERENCE TO THE GROUND WIRE ON A SINGLE COIL AND ON THE OUTPUT JACK THIS REALLY CAUGHT MY ATTENTION. THERE MUST BE SOMETHING HERE I NEED TO LEARN. SO IF I WAS RIGHT ABOUT THE CURRENT FLOWING THROUGH OR IN AND OUT OF THE LIVE (HOT) AND NEUTRAL WIRES , WOULD THE “SO CALLED GROUND WIRES” BE THE SAME AS THE NEUTRAL WIRE ? APOLOGIES IF IM MAKING NO SENSE ! IM WRITING IN CAPS SO ITS EASIER TO FIND MY RESPONSES.
ANOTHER THING. IN THE GUITAR , WHERE IS THE CIRCUIT LOOP ? DOES IT BEGIN AT THE PICKUP THEN REACH THE OUTPUT JACK AND THEN RETURN BACK TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PICKUP?
OR DOES IT GO ALL THE WAY FROM THE PICKUP, PAST THE OUTPUT JACK , INTO THE AMP, THEN BACK?
OR DOES THE CIRCUIT GO FROM PICKUP TO OUTPUT JACK TO AMP TO WALL TO POWER STATION THEN BACK AGAIN?
OR ARE THERE CIRCUITS WITHIN CIRCUITS ? IF THAT MAKES SENSE
PHEW 😅!
I THINK I UNDERSTAND THAT HISTORICALY THERE HAS BEEN SOME CONFUSION OVER POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE (BENJAMIN FRANKLIN) AND ALSO DIFFERENT SCHEMATICS MAY SWITCH THE DIRECTION OF + AND -
WHEN I READ THAT MY BRAIN MELTED EVEN WHEN HE TRIED TO EXPLAIN IT AND MAKE IT EASY TO UNDERSTAND LOL
OH BY THE WAY, WHAT WOULD BE THE PROPER TERMINOLOGY FOR THE PICKUP WIRES AND THE OUTPUT JACK LUGS? IF THE GROUND WIRE OF A PICKUP IS NOT ACCURATE THEN WHAT SHOULD IT BE CALLED ?
——-
3. CURIOSITY QUESTIONS
reTrEaD said:
“That sounds like an interesting exercise but unless you are very thorough in predicting ALL possible errors, it won't result in a comprehensive and useful resource. Also, you would want to be thorough in answering the 'what would happen' part. Detailing results of doing a guitar colonoscopy (connecting an ohmmeter to the output jack) would be important information.”
Newey said :
“Hard to say what you mean to do here. Are you connecting BG, SC Hot and SC Ground all together? OJ hot and ground together? In any event, none of this is sounding like something you would want to do, assuming the goal is to get signal out to your amp.”
YES , THATS CORRECT, CONNECTING BG, SC Hot and SC Ground ALL TOGETHER , THEN CONNECTING THEM TO BOTH OJ Hot AND OJ Ground AT THE SAME TIME
reTrEaD said:
“With two wires from your SC plus a wire for your BG, you have a total of three wires.
With two lugs on your OJ, you have two possible destinations to connect each of those three wires. Plus a possibility of the wire being disconnected. So there are three possible destinations.
So that leaves us with a 3x3 matrix of wires and possible destinations. That's nine basic possibilities plus a tenth (any of those nine and the two lugs of the OJ shorted together, as in your last question). Then we can add combinations where two wires are connected together but not connected to either lug of the OJ.
With such a simple circuit there are already a LOT of possible errors or failures. You can only imagine how many possibilities exist when we add more than one pickup with more than one coil, switches, pots, and capacitors. Yikes!”
YIKES INDEED, THATS WHAT I THOUGHT. JUST TO MAKE THIS EXTRA LONG POST EVEN LONGER I MAY ASWELL PUT IN THE 30+ COMBINATIONS I CAME UP WITH. MAYBE SOME ARE WRONG OR DUPLICATE BUT I JUST TRIED FIGURE OUT AS MANY AS I COULD. MAYBE IL PUT THEM IN ANOTHER POST ....
|
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Nov 30, 2019 17:43:19 GMT -5
Here we are, there may be more but these are the only ones I can think of
No pressure to actually answer them !! Maybe I will have to do that myself but if you want to please do !
Here are my “stupid” education question. What would happen if I did this ?
—
1.BG —> OJ hot
2.BG —> OJ ground
3.BG —> OJ hot + ground
—-
4.SC hot —> OJ hot
5.SC hot —> OJ ground
6.SC hot —> OJ hot + ground
—-
7.SC ground —> OJ ground
8.SC ground —> OJ hot
9.SC ground —> OJ hot + ground
—-
10.BG + SC hot —> OJ hot
11.BG + SC hot —> OJ ground
12.BG + SC hot —> OJ hot + ground
—-
13.BG + SC ground —> OJ hot
14.BG + SC ground —> OJ ground
15.BG + SC ground —> OJ hot + ground
—-
16.SC hot + SC ground —> O.J hot
17.SC hot + SC ground —> O.J ground
18.SC hot + SC ground —> O.J hot + ground
—-
19.BG + SC hot + SC ground —> OJ hot
20.BG + SC hot + SC ground —> OJ ground
21.BG + SC hot + SC ground —> OJ hot + ground
—
22.BG —> OJ hot
SC hot —> OJ ground
23.BG —> OJ ground
SC hot —> OJ hot
24.BG —> OJ hot
SC ground —> OJ ground
25.BG —> OJ ground
SC ground —> OJ hot
26.SC hot —> OJ hot
SC ground —> OJ ground
27.SC hot —> OJ ground
SC ground —> OJ hot
—-
28.BG + SC Hot —> OJ Hot
SC Ground —> OJ Ground
29.BG + SC Hot —> OJ Ground
SC Ground —> OJ Hot
30.BG + SC Ground —> OJ Hot
SC Hot —> OJ Ground
31.BG + SC Ground —> OJ Ground
SC Hot —> OJ Hot
32.SC Hot + SC Ground —> OJ Hot
BG —> OJ Ground
33.SC Hot + SC Ground —> OJ Ground
BG —> OJ Hot
|
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Nov 30, 2019 23:07:42 GMT -5
Hopefully I can get through all of this without misplacing any quotes....
.... So In summary, if I want a quick response and clear answer, give as much detail as possible and try to be specific. We never said anything about quickness, because that's not what we're all about. For us, correct answers are much more important. And preferably corroborating answers as well, to seal the deal. What Chris was referring to is not really tied directly to your set of questions. We can go there, but I hesitate to muddy the waters any more than absolutely necessary. You'll understand in a few moments, as I answer more questions. I gotta admit, I dislike that analogy, but I suppose if it helps....
We're back to mixing power supply (Mains) with guitar circuitry. In the long run, it has to be done some time, but for now, let me just say these few words:
Wrong. All three wires are involved, and in and of themselves, constitute several possible circuits. We'll go there more deeply in a moment.
Generally speaking, that's the intent. It's very poorly served, but sadly, the truth is that no one consulted with me before making all these so-called safety features. The bottom line was that the copper manufacturers were seeking a way to make more money, and they sicked their marketing departments on governments all over the then-civilized world. (I reserve my right to consider today's world as civilized, or not.)
Yer right, that's incorrect. Remember what I said above about multiple circuits, and keep that in mind for a moment.
Well, that's why we're having this discussion - we're doing the teaching, and you're doing the learning. Sort of a complete circuit, if you get my meaning.
In reference to newey's post about AC having no polarity, and that +/- are just shortcuts that everyone accepts, what we call ground actually should be called "return". The fact that the signal must come back to the starting point (that is, the current we're calling a signal) says that it needs a 'return path', yes? And now we enter another abyss of misnaming things - the problem lays in that that return path is hooked to a real ground, meaning that if it were measured for voltage, there'd be Zero volts available. And why is that? Because somewhere along the line, we have to have a reference point against which to take measurements. Eerily enough, that's the ground point. And so, you ask? How'd that happen, you want to know.
Simple: because what you and I are calling 'ground' is properly known a common point of reference. You non-Americans calling it Earth is actually a pretty fair statement. (Just be aware that ground and Earth can exist within a complex set of circuits, side-by-side, and never actually meet up.) A lot of circuit paths end up being able to use this common point (named 'ground') for the return portions of their constituent signal paths. Sounds fascinating, yes? Don't worry, as we go along, we'll keep repeating this idea in various ways, and it will eventually sink it. Just like it did for the rest of us Nutz.
Actually, you are correct. In nearly every country on the planet, where third wires are required in the Mains setup, they are bonded to the Neutral, even though they are called "ground". There's a reason for that, but I really don't want to go there just yet. OK?
As already revealed, there are several circuit paths, and your example is correct, albeit it's not the only circuit path we can point out.
Right again! Yer gettin' good at this game!
Stop it, you're on a roll, and you might not make it back in time for the next lesson.
Nope, no confusion. Schematics have always used plus and minus to indicate polarity, regardless of AC or DC. The only "confusion" comes from the fact that in technician schools, they teach that electrons move from negative to positive, which is kind of backwards from what the scientists/experimenters thought during the early part of the last century. Turns out they were half right, and half wrong.
With the aid of electron microscopes, we can see electrons moving when current is applied. Or can we? And to be exactly on target, I should say "Or do we" see such movement.
In engineering schools, they teach that "holes" move, not electrons. In fact, they can actually demonstrate that an average electron in a conductor moves only a few inches in a linear path - it just keeps bouncing around, without regard to a particular destination. Holes are places where electrons were, and these holes can be seen to move quite some distance. (Remember, this observance is happening in real time, so there has to be some wizard-level trickery to be able to spot this action.) Thus, engineers hew to the old maxim of current moving from positive to negative, a concept that completely escaped gthe early pioneers of the Electrical Age.
Like I said above, it should be called the Return terminal (or lug, or connecting point, whatever). But try that in just about any other forum on the web, and you'll get a lot of "Huh?  ". With the advent of the Internet, we've all been reduced to the lowest common denominator, and that means that if we want to communicate an idea, without having to communicate the defining words as well, then we'll just have to accept that there are lots of 'incorrect' word choices out there. But then again, why act like an old man who constantly shouts "Get offa my lawn" all the time? Better to just go with the flow, that's reTrEaD's motto. OK, I think you've absorbed enough for one afternoon, let's knock off for a few hours, eh? HTH sumgai |
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Nov 30, 2019 23:10:47 GMT -5
Here we are, there may be more but these are the only ones I can think of No pressure to actually answer them !! Maybe I will have to do that myself but if you want to please do ! Here are my “stupid” education question. What would happen if I did this ? (yadda yadda, so on and so forth, blah blah, woof woof, bite me if you don't like it, etc*.) Funnily enough, this isn't a bad approximation of the kind of test I used to give my first quarter students. Must be true that great channels run through the same mind, eh?
sumgai
* etc = Expired Thinking Capacity
|
|
|
|
Post by newey on Dec 1, 2019 0:11:29 GMT -5
ourclarioncall-
I am (and I don't think I'm alone) unwilling to go through every possible wire permutation and combination, as in your list. It's not that I'm not inclined to be helpful, I am, but thinking about it in the manner you are undertaking here is, ultimately, counterproductive to your goals.
Instead of focusing on all possible combinations, most of which won't work, or won't work well, focus instead on understanding the few ways to wire things that do work, and seek to understand why those wirings work and others don't.
We can think of it this way. Our goal is the goal of all guitar wirings, from simple to complex- that is, to get the signal from the pickup to our amp.
Any combination of wirings has only 3 possible output states. It can:
A) Not work, i.e., not provide any signal to the amp.
B) Work, but do so poorly, i.e., noisy, or intermittent, signal to the amp.
C) Work properly, providing good signal to the amp.
Rather than focusing on the huge number of possibilities in either "A" and "B", why not focus on "C", and seek to understand why those combinations work as intended?
|
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 1, 2019 20:23:15 GMT -5
Yo
Thanks once again for trawling through my wheat and chaff and helping steer me in the right direction 🙂
Ok so I only just learned that AC is different from DC ! I just thought it all went in one direction. So I have now recovered from that mind blowing revelation and I’m really showing my kindergarten knowledge of all thing electrical.
Today I was dipping my mind into the beginnings of a free electrical engineering course online. It has touched on things like atoms and electrons in copper, ions in non pure water, current direction, schematics, loops , mesh loops , nodes, branches, that kind of stuff. It still hasn’t sunk in but I’m sure if I keep Saturating my mind with this stuff and asking questions it will begin to make sense.
I would in the long term love to be able to do all things guitar related like building amps, making stomp boxes etc.
I did try to become a domestic electrician a few years ago but I was too old and couldn’t get my foot in the door.
I have also been looking at British electrical electronic engineering (EEE) degrees. It’s not realistic for me to study this way but it is interesting to looking at the course structure and curriculum so I can get an idea of what things I really need to learn. Seems like maths and physics are the two main ones and maybe chemistry too.
It seems like the first two years of the degree courses they get you well rounded with all the different branches that you might use EEE skills then in year 3 and 4 specialise in a certain area.
For now I guess I will just have to glean what I can from the interweb. 😃
Right , I will take a minute to re-read the responses again and reply
Thanks again, back in a wee while
|
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 1, 2019 20:41:09 GMT -5
Newey said:
“ Instead of focusing on all possible combinations, most of which won't work, or won't work well, focus instead on understanding the few ways to wire things that do work, and seek to understand why those wirings work and others don't. We can think of it this way. Our goal is the goal of all guitar wirings, from simple to complex- that is, to get the signal from the pickup to our amp. Any combination of wirings has only 3 possible output states. It can:
A) Not work, i.e., not provide any signal to the amp.
B) Work, but do so poorly, i.e., noisy, or intermittent, signal to the amp.
C) Work properly, providing good signal to the amp.
Rather than focusing on the huge number of possibilities in either "A" and "B", why not focus on "C", and seek to understand why those combinations work as intended? “
——
Sounds good to me. In the back of mind I thought there must be a better way to organise/analyse these possible combination
Sooo, which combinations fit into category C ? That’s assuming there is more than one ?
Now that I learned about AC, maybe I should have a guess and see if learning anything . Again, I could be wrong here but I’m assuming there is more than one possibility in category C.
In my everything is DC mindset I probably would have thought there is only one way that the circuit can work properly , which would be
SC Hot —> OJ Hot
SC Ground + BG —> OJ Ground
Or I could say
SC signal —> OJ signal
SC return + BG —> OJ return
is that more accurate or a better way to communicate?
And before I attempt to guess and potentially embarrass myself , I better wait for clarification whether there is more than one option for category C
Cheers
|
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Dec 2, 2019 0:02:01 GMT -5
occ,
In your examle of one pup and one output jack, your wiring just above would be correct. And in fact, the leads could be reversed, with the same results. Remember, the term 'ground', aka 'return', is idealizing a part of a circuit into a reference point. Where nothing else is sharing that reference point, then polarity does not matter.
But.... when we use a cable to go from the output jack to the amp (or pedals) then we do need to keep the polarity references straight. Amplifiers have a definite ground, usually bonded to Earth, and that carries through to the guitar, via the cable. Thus, the output jack is never reversed in polarity designations - that would be bad for noise, hum, etc.
Now for the next lesson.
We use polarity designators to differentiate one lead from another for a good reason, and that is, when one has more than one pickup within his/her axe, then it plays hob with the ears when their respective polarities don't match up. This is called 'out of phase'. Suffice it to say, when two or more pups are available for use, then the designated + lead should go the the "hot" terminal of the output jack (or some controls inbetween those points). Reversing one of them yields OoP, the abbreviation for Out of Phase. Reversing both pups sounds the same as neither being reversed. The reason for that should be obvious by now.
And there are occasions when an OoP sound is desired, and useful. But to be sure, the standard of "matching polarities" is called a standard for a reason - it's not an odd sound, it's rich and full (or at least it's supposed to be....).
Here's a point to ponder. Take a look at this chart, which denotes color codes for wires from various pickup makers:
Notice a couple of things: One is that there's no "standard" between pup makers! We're on our own when it comes to figuring out which lead is which way when we want to compare, and possibly use, pups from difference makers - that's why someone made that chart, a long time ago.
Second is that some folks use the label "Start", some use "Hot", some combine the two terms, and occasionally there's no indication at all of what's what. Of course, without an 'industry standard', Murphy's Law takes over, and we have problems when trying to use what we might think is the best pup for Position A, and one from another maker that seems to be a better choice for Position B. This is a pretty common dilemma, believe it or don't.
Fortunately, when one enters this realm, it takes only a few minutes of experimentation to figure out which way around to hook things up. One good way to do this, before you even put the new pups in your axe, is to use this reference link:
Testing Phase - The Screwdriver Pull-off Test
It might seem a bit over your head for a few minutes, so re-read it a couple of times, and it should make more sense.
(Oooh, don't have a multimeter, do you? Well, bunky, better start perusing the web for a cheap meter of some kind. Or if you have a decent hardware store nearby, you might start there..... This measurement tool is absolutely indispensible for our kind of work, that is to say, the kind you want to get into.)
To refresh your memory, the reason I brought all that up was that polarity indicators are standardized in that the plus sign (+) is used to mean "hot signal", and that's pretty much guaranteed to get no argument from anyone in the guitar industry. Ditto for the minus sign (-) meaning ground (which of course should be noted as "return" - we've already gone over that topic). But when it comes to individual components, sometimes markings can be confusing, I'll agree with you there. Getting around those instances requires either experience, or good resources that won't steer you wrong.
OK, it's time for the piece d'resistance: JohnH discovered this link some time ago, and I've perused it. Try it out and tell us what you think, please:
US Navy Electronics Course
HTH
sumgai
|
|
|
|
Post by thetragichero on Dec 2, 2019 12:42:40 GMT -5
I've got this loaded on a kindle for my bathroom reading. starts at the very basic stuff (what is an atom) and builds up from there. since it was meant as a correspondence course everything's laid out in a pretty straightforward manner |
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 2, 2019 14:29:19 GMT -5
Sumgai said:
“In your examle of one pup and one output jack, your wiring just above would be correct. And in fact, the leads could be reversed, with the same results. Remember, the term 'ground', aka 'return', is idealizing a part of a circuit into a reference point. Where nothing else is sharing that reference point, then polarity does not matter.”
—-
When you say the leads could be reversed, I think you mean that the SC ground could go to OJ hot and the SC hot could go to the OJ ground and it would still work, the question is why ? And I’m going to guess it’s because of how AC works ? It’s going back and forth. I can’t really articulate it but I think I get it . If it was DC it wouldn’t work ?
—-
Sumgai said :
“
But.... when we use a cable to go from the output jack to the amp (or pedals) then we do need to keep the polarity references straight. Amplifiers have a definite ground, usually bonded to Earth, and that carries through to the guitar, via the cable. Thus, the output jack is never reversed in polarity designations - that would be bad for noise, hum, etc.”
—-
For a guy like me I’ve maybe jumped into the deep end as far as learning goes? Maybe people start with simple DC circuits with a battery and a light bulb or something ? And I’m coming in with a guitar circuit connected to an amplifier and mains. It’s all good from my end tho , as I am motivated to learn.
That navy electronics link you posted. I actually looked at that previously but it wouldn’t open up on my phone so I moved on. But I tried again on my tablet and got the pdfs open so had a browse through it today. Looks good, pretty heavy duty ! I will dig into it
——
Sumgai said:
“We use polarity designators to differentiate one lead from another for a good reason, and that is, when one has more than one pickup within his/her axe, then it plays hob with the ears when their respective polarities don't match up. This is called 'out of phase'. Suffice it to say, when two or more pups are available for use, then the designated + lead should go the the "hot" terminal of the output jack (or some controls inbetween those points). Reversing one of them yields OoP, the abbreviation for Out of Phase. Reversing both pups sounds the same as neither being reversed. The reason for that should be obvious by now.”
—-
For years I’ve researched strat mods , so this part of wiring I understand pretty well.
Peter Green ? Had the front pickup accidentally wired OoP ? And Brian mays Red special has the series wiring with the OoP switches.
And typically on a strat 5 way switch, people call positions 2 and 4 OoP, but this is not correct , it’s just 2 single coils in parallel, or because the middle pickup is often RWRP you basically have 2 single coil making a humbucker although in parallel not series.
|
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 2, 2019 14:32:06 GMT -5
Okay, instead of going through every possible combination I had a go at trying to categorise them
I put these in order of BEST to WORST. I thought the first two combos might fit into category C, but there are maybe more ?
How did I do ??!! LOL 😆
———
C) Work properly, providing good signal to the amp.
31.BG + SC Ground —> OJ Ground
SC Hot —> OJ Hot
29.BG + SC Hot —> OJ Ground
SC Ground —> OJ Hot
B) Work, but do so poorly, i.e., noisy, or intermittent, signal to the amp.
28.BG + SC Hot —> OJ Hot
SC Ground —> OJ Ground
30.BG + SC Ground —> OJ Hot
SC Hot —> OJ Ground
26.SC hot —> OJ hot
SC ground —> OJ ground
27.SC hot —> OJ ground
SC ground —> OJ hot
A) Not work, i.e., not provide any signal to the amp.
The rest that are left :
1 to 25 , 32, 33
|
|
|
|
Post by newey on Dec 2, 2019 17:10:46 GMT -5
Yes, you got this part.
Yes, any wiring that ties the bridge ground to the output jack hot will be noisy. But, the next two combinations, Nos. 26 and 27? Whether they will be noisy or not depends on what you are doing with the BG. If BG is wired to the output hot, then you have your answer above, the same as with Nos. 29 and 31. If BG is left disconnected entirely, some level of noise will likely result but it won't be as bad as wiring the BG to output hot. It will simply mean that your strings/bridge aren't grounded. Back in the day, many hollow-bodied Jazz type guitars didn't have bridge grounds. People nonetheless bought these and played with them- but usually at a low volume, through a low-powered '50s or '60s vintage amp which wasn't likely very quiet itself. If your gear of choice includes something akin to a Marshall stack, and your music of choice requires some level of gain, you will want a string ground.
As I said earlier, I'm not spending my time on the rest, but I'll bet you are correct. But as I said, understanding the "why" question is what takes us to the next level of knowledge. All of those other possible wirings don't work because they either:
A) Do not make a complete circuit, as one wire is left unconnected, or
B) Make a short circuit, meaning the "Hot" is connected to the "ground". In this case, there is a circuit, but the circuit gets completed before any signal gets to our amp, it is instead a "short circuit", or a "shunt" as it is sometimes called.
|
|
|
|
Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 2, 2019 20:23:11 GMT -5
Really appreciate you taking the time to help me here Newey, I feel like I’m finally starting to get somewhere now. Thankyou so much
So, the new order of best to worst would look like.
C) Work properly, providing good signal to the amp.
31.BG + SC Ground —> OJ Ground
SC Hot —> OJ Hot
29.BG + SC Hot —> OJ Ground
SC Ground —> OJ Hot
B) Work, but do so poorly, i.e., noisy, or intermittent, signal to the amp.
26.SC hot —> OJ hot
SC ground —> OJ ground
27.SC hot —> OJ ground
SC ground —> OJ hot
28.BG + SC Hot —> OJ Hot
SC Ground —> OJ Ground
30.BG + SC Ground —> OJ Hot
SC Hot —> OJ Ground
A) Not work, i.e., not provide any signal to the amp.
The rest that are left : 1 to 25 , 32, 33
——————
Newey said :
“Yes, any wiring that ties the bridge ground to the output jack hot will be noisy.”
I DONT REALLY UNDERSTAND WHY ?
————
Newey said:
“If BG is left disconnected entirely, some level of noise will likely result but it won't be as bad as wiring the BG to output hot. It will simply mean that your strings/bridge aren't grounded. Back in the day, many hollow-bodied Jazz type guitars didn't have bridge grounds.”
I DONT GET THIS EITHER? IN MY HEAD WHEN I THINK ABOUT GROUND , IM THINKING ABOUT AN EMERGENCY EXIT PATH FOR ELECTRONS TO GO THROUGH INSIDE OF ME GETTING ELECTROCUTED. ISNT IT DANGEROUS NOT TO HAVE THIS GROUND WIRE FROM BRIDGE?
——-
Newey said :
“As I said earlier, I'm not spending my time on the rest, but I'll bet you are correct. But as I said, understanding the "why" question is what takes us to the next level of knowledge. All of those other possible wirings don't work because they either:
A) Do not make a complete circuit, as one wire is left unconnected, or
B) Make a short circuit, meaning the "Hot" is connected to the "ground". In this case, there is a circuit, but the circuit gets completed before any signal gets to our amp, it is instead a "short circuit", or a "shunt" as it is sometimes called.”
COOL, THIS IS HELPFUL . I UNDERSTAND A) BUT NOT B)
SO A SHORT CIRCUIT IS SHORTER THAN IT WAS INTENDED FOR IT TO BE? THE ELECTRONS/SIGNAL IS BEING REDIRECTED INSTEAD OF ALLOWED TO FULFIL THE ORIGINAL LONGER CIRCUIT?
SO IF FOR EXAMPLE LETS SAY I WANT TO WIRE MY SINGLE COIL STRAIGHT TO MY OUTPUT JACK. I FIRST CONNECT SC Hot to OJ Hot AND THATS FINE. BUT WHEN I TRY TO WIRE THE SC ground TO OJ ground , I ACCIDENTALLY STICK THE WIRE TO FAR IN AND IT TOUCHES THE OJ Hot ASWELL, THEN I GUESS I HAVE JUST CREATED A LOOP FROM SC Hot STRAIGHT BACK TO SC ground AND THE SIGNAL DIDNT OR COULDNT TRAVEL UP TO THE AMP?
|
|
|
|
Post by newey on Dec 2, 2019 23:24:04 GMT -5
Basically, yes. And, let's lose the all-caps thing, it's really annoying. We are listening. A short circuit is a circuit of sorts- but we want the circuit to be completed inside the amp, so that our signal, taken all the way from our pickups, gets amplified. (Yes, I understand this is a gross oversimplification, but we're doing baby steps here . . .). As an aside (and to really "blow your mind". as we used to say), you mentioned understanding the difference between AC and DC circuits. Grok on this: Your amp plugs into your household AC mains current (220V in the UK, as you noted earlier). Therefore, AC goes into the circuit. However, the amplifier circuits are DC based (while AC amplifiers do exist, they are not used in most electronics you are likely to see day-to-day, for reasons I won't go into now). So, your amp takes an AC signal from the cord from your guitar, and converts the signal to DC. Meanwhile, the AC mains current into the amp is also converted to DC, so it can amplify the (formerly AC, but now converted to DC) guitar signal. As you have noted with guitar pickups (and as sumgai has taught), because the circuit is AC (until it gets into the amp, anyway), it can be hooked up either way around, and it won't matter, so long as the circuit is the simple pickup-to-jack circuit you have outlined. Make it more complex, and then polarities will matter, as sg notes. Yes, but I'm not buying the "accidental" part of that. It's a classic mod, no new parts, just reverse the wires from one pickup to the 3-way switch. My (somewhat infamous) "Flyin' Pumpkin" guitar is wired this way, 2 HBs OOP in the center position. This works a lot better when the gain is sufficiently engaged. You basically have this. Yes, a short circuit makes a complete circuit, but not the circuit we intended- it takes an unauthorized shortcut, like Rosie Ruiz in the Boston Marathon (and, anyone who is old enough to get that reference without googling it has my sympathies).  No, the "ground", as noted earlier by sumgai, is the "return" path of the circuit. It is not an "emergency exit" in any meaningful sense. It is not at all dangerous to have an ungrounded bridge, as I noted, guitars were purposefully built this way in the past. They might be noisier, or not, depending on the specific environment in which they were used. But a guitar pickup generates an (AC) current of fractions of an ampere, with a correspondingly low voltage. You will not electrocute yourself in the guts of a passive electric guitar, and even active electronics pose no realistic threat. Electrocution concerns for guitarists do exist (RIP Keith Relf of the Yardbirds), but these are due to amp issues,not our guitars. Even in the realm of amps, only vintage tube amps present any real danger, and even then, only in a failure mode that is relatively unlikely to occur. But, nevertheless, do not stand on a concrete floor in damp socks while exorcising your inner Malmstein. Common sense is . . .  |
|
More or less in order:
)
". With the advent of the Internet, we've all been reduced to the lowest common denominator, and that means that if we want to communicate an idea, without having to communicate the defining words as well, then we'll just have to accept that there are lots of 'incorrect' word choices out there. But then again, why act like an old man who constantly shouts "Get offa my lawn" all the time? Better to just go with the flow, that's reTrEaD's motto. 
