High Output Pickups With Digital Modeler: Good or Bad?

[musicman]

Hello Guitarnuts Community,

I use a Line 6 Helix LT Guitar processor and really like it. Learning how to use it this past year has been a lot of work but a blast.

Has anyone experienced a huge change in amp or preset sounds after changing pickups in their guitars?

I just installed a Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge and a 59 in the neck of my PRS SE Custom 24. These replaced the originally 85/15s pickups which I thought were good, but was never totally satisfied with the sounds. I play lots of different styles like Rush, Steely Dan, Tool, Queen, Zeppelin and Porcupine Tree, so versatility is important for me.

The clean sounds from these pups are amazing, didn’t know this guitar could sound so beautiful, especially the 59 in the neck. But, any tones with gain or distortion sound absolutely terrible in every position.

I mostly use the bridge for high gain and it sounds flat, harsh with no punch, really terrible. Every preset with gain sounds the same no matter the amp model or different signal chain. 

Tried adjusting pickup heights, have them set at factory recommendation, tried reducing gain and master volume, tried putting a gain patch at the beginning of the signal chain to reduce signal level...nothing has worked. Also checked with SD to make sure they were wired correctly.

Do lower output pups work better with digital modeling?

Thanks so much for your help.

Best regards,
Derek

[gckelloch]

The SD 59 should be about the same inductance as the 85/15 neck (4~4.5H?), so it might just be that the 85/15 has a weaker AlNiCo magnet if the 59 is higher output at the same string distance. The current production SD JB bridge is apparently much higher inductance than the 85/15, so not only the magnet might be stronger, but the resonance peak is likely in the ~2kHz range vs maybe an octave higher for the other pickups. Where exactly depends on the capacitance of your guitar cable and pickups themselves. Either way, it would certainly sound different if you set up your presets with the other pickups. There's nothing about a digital amp sim that would make higher output pickups sound worse than lower output ones, unless you are getting digital clipping in the signal path somewhere. It's a common mistake to set signal levels too high in digital units. You should aim to keep the in through out peaks in the -12dB range to avoid that. As I recall, some of the older FX have a lower bit depth and can be clipped much more easily than newer ones.

[antigua]

I've tried the JB/Jazz and some other sets that were similar to it, and I didn't think the JB and similar (7 to 8 henries inductance bridge humbuckers) were easy to work with, either for distortion or clean sounds. I think the JB came to market at a time when gain was still on the low side, so that pickup helped get a more saturated sound, for playing Van Halen style. But since then, gain is essentially unlimited, so the limitation of the lower resonant peak might be the single most noticeable thing about a JB now. 

Modeling gear almost always favors a flat transfer curve, or "transparent" gear, because they're trying to curve match with other gear that was not flat itself, and so they need the cleanest slate to work with. The digital modeling amps tend to come with speakers that have a high treble and low bass range, so that they can omit or retain bass and treble in order to match with whatever they're trying to model. If the hardware is colorful on it's own, and then you try to model other hardware on it, you get a combination of the two frequency filters, instead of one or the other. It would be like plugging a Sans Amp into a Fender or a Marshall, instead of a mixing board, as they're intended.

For that reason, when they design digital modelers, they probably test against them with the most average guitar pickups in mind, and the stock 85/15s are probably very average, because PRS on the one hand wants to say they're special, but they want to have the smallest number of dissatisfied customers possible. I think the JB in particular might just be too big of a leap in inductance. It's a pickup with a good reputation that will probably never go away, but which might be obsolete with modern gear. 

[musicman]

Hi Guitarnuts,

Thanks for the responses. Its not easy understanding all the technology so the community is a big help.

I've been able to adjust my presets with lots of tweeking to gain and master levels, and especially EQs. And while i have beautiful clean tones, I'm still not happy with the high gain ones. There is always a bit of fuzzy effect, which is not a clear sounding distortion. Sorry its not easy to describe.

Adjusting the level to -12db seemed to help with this a little, but the gain still sounds unclear.

Antigua, I think you might be correct about the JB in regards to the resonance and style of how it was designed. What pickups would you recommend that can provide a cleaner high distortion sound?

Do active pickups solve this problem? Curious about the Fishman Modern. Or do I need to return to medium output pups?

For use, I am only recording with Logic Pro and not building sounds to play live.

Thanks again,

Derek

[antigua]

Nov 14, 2021 19:05:18 GMT -5 musicman said:

Hi Guitarnuts,

Thanks for the responses. Its not easy understanding all the technology so the community is a big help.

I've been able to adjust my presets with lots of tweeking to gain and master levels, and especially EQs. And while i have beautiful clean tones, I'm still not happy with the high gain ones. There is always a bit of fuzzy effect, which is not a clear sounding distortion. Sorry its not easy to describe.

Adjusting the level to -12db seemed to help with this a little, but the gain still sounds unclear.

Antigua, I think you might be correct about the JB in regards to the resonance and style of how it was designed. What pickups would you recommend that can provide a cleaner high distortion sound?

Do active pickups solve this problem? Curious about the Fishman Modern. Or do I need to return to medium output pups?

For use, I am only recording with Logic Pro and not building sounds to play live.

Thanks again,

Derek

The fizziness comes from excessive treble harmonics. When you take a fundamental note and distort it, it produces consistent harmonics of the fundamental, and that sounds really smooth, a lot of people call it the Eric Clapton Women tone, because that's a popular reference point. The opposite of a distorted fundamental is to have a signal that already has a lot of harmonics included, which is the case with an electric guitar that has a clear clean tone, all of the clarity is made up of harmonics. When you distort existing harmonics, you get harmonics of harmonics, and that results in fizzy cacophony. That's why playing a full triad chord sounds great clean, but terrible with gain; too many layers of harmonics all overlapping at once. When you play a "power chord" most of the harmonics line up so it sounds rich and full. 

Fender single coils produce the most harmonics, and so they're considered the most fizzy sounding when distorted with high gain. On the other hand, humbuckers omit a lot of harmonics for two reasons 1) they usually have higher inductance and lower resonant peak, cutting off harmonics at a lower frequency, 2) the side by side coils results in notch filtering that knocks out harmonics at specific intervals (which is where the "quack" sound comes from with a Strat). Therefor humbuckers have always been popular for high gain, because they're not as dull as the "Woman tone", but not as fizzy as single coils.

In the marketplace, a PAF replica with a DC resistance of 8k ohms correlated with an inductance of around 5 henries, and that has been a very common recipe for a bridge pickup that distorts well and still sounds acceptable clean. For the neck PAF, a DCR of 7k and an inductance of 4 henries is the most common, and that spec point delivers a good clean tone, but not a great high gain tone, and the neck pickup is usually used for cleans.  For recording, the easiest solution is probably a graphic EQ. Most of the fizzyness is at frequencies above 2kHz, so if you can bring that range down, it should clean up the sound. 

[ecmalmo]

I have tried the Fishman moderns. If you like to have diffreent voicings to play with they are nice, but if you just want a good active tone they are no better than EMGs, which can be found everywhere used these days for much less than the Fishmans. There’s also the EMG 89 that has a nice single coil mode.

[antigua]

Nov 15, 2021 13:33:28 GMT -5 ecmalmo said:

I have tried the Fishman moderns. If you like to have diffreent voicings to play with they are nice, but if you just want a good active tone they are no better than EMGs, which can be found everywhere used these days for much less than the Fishmans. There’s also the EMG 89 that has a nice single coil mode.

I did an analysis of the Fishman set, guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/9480/fishman-fluence-modern-sustainiac-response , the "modern" is almost identical to the EMG 81 or 85, and the vintage voice is actually closer to a "JB", which people don't think of as vintage, but compared to the modern curve, it seems vintage.

[musicman]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

When I decided to replace the stock PRS pups, it was because I felt they were harsh, like there was too much mid-range that I couldn't EQ out of the sound.

Being a novice I probably made the same mistake as many and just listened to samples of sounds on the net, so with the myriad of choices it was quite confusing. And then when I saw on the Seymour Duncan site that so and so guitarists used a JB and 59 combo I thought, hey if its good enough for them, it should be fine for me.

And that led me to my current nightmare. Too much mid-range, harsh tones, fizziness. I went from solving the problem to making it worse. But it has been a learning experience. I never understood about resistance and knew nothing about henries...LOL.

Specs:

PRS 85/15s (Neck: A2 DC Res 8.1 and Bridge: A5 DC Res 9.0) Btw, I can't seem to find info of the resonant peak of the PRS pups...anyone know?

JB (Bridge: DC Res 16.4 and 5.5 henries)

59 (Neck: DC Res 7.4 and 6.8 henries)

Antigua, there seem to be very few pups for bridge that are rated Bridge: 8 and 4 and Neck 7 and 4. But seems to be back down near the PRS pup specs.

Anyone have any other pickup recommendations? My desired sound for the bridge is heavy hard rock but not modern metal. Somewhere in between. My original material is Porcupine Tree meets Alterbridge meets Tool meets Zeppelin. Some of it also a bit Pink Floydy so important for good clean ambient tones. Very derivative but fun to play.

Have a great day,

Derek

[gckelloch]

There seems to be some confusion about what pickup inductance level will produce a good amp overdrive sound without fizz. Something in the 8H range would be ideal for that. With an average (300~500pF) capacitance cable, you'd be getting a resonance in the ~2kHz range which will have good clarity without fizz. I use low cap values on the tone knobs of my 2~3H SC pickups specifically to get a ~2kHz peak when the knob is turned down, and it's rock out with your...clock out time through my overdriven amp sim presets. Amp sims are generally desined to sound like the amps they are modeled after, but you will get a just bit more high-end extension from most A/I units using the same guitar cable because they don't have the "Miller Capcitacne" of a 12ax7 tube stage, but that only adds 50~100pF anyway.

You don't necessarily need a ~2kHz peak with amp lead/overdrive channels and pedals though because they usually filter out above 2kHz anyway. I've gotten some great Plexi amp type overdrive tones with 4~5H HB's where the high end in the amp doesn't drop off until ~4kHz. It depends how much distortion there is, the speakers, etc. I also tend to turn the Middle up and the Treble way down on the tone stack. That reduces fizz and harshness. I actually prefer HB's in the 4~5H inductance range over something in the 5~6H range because the resonance peak can too easily be in the most harsh-sounding 3-3.5kHz range. That could be the issue with the 5.5H SD JB bridge. BTW, I don't think the SD '59 neck is 6.8H. It's probably more like 3.8H.

You don't have to spend a lot to get great sounding guitar pickups. The SD '59 should be fine as is with lower gain sounds depending on your guitar cable capacitance, but you might want to add like a ~500pF cap (and maybe a 470k resistor) over the JB pickup switch lug to ground to bring the peak down out of the harsh sounding range. It would be most helpful to know your cable capacitance.

Finally, you should check your presets with all the FX blocks turned off to make sure you are not clipping the in or out of the Helix unit (you want -12dB peaks there for the best S/N ratio), and then make sure the output of each block is not clipping the input of the next block, while still keeping the level at the -12dB peak range as you turn on each successive block. I don't know if the Helix still has some old 16bit effects that can be easily clipped. That could be creating fizz.

[antigua]

Nov 16, 2021 19:46:38 GMT -5 musicman said:

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

When I decided to replace the stock PRS pups, it was because I felt they were harsh, like there was too much mid-range that I couldn't EQ out of the sound.

Being a novice I probably made the same mistake as many and just listened to samples of sounds on the net, so with the myriad of choices it was quite confusing. And then when I saw on the Seymour Duncan site that so and so guitarists used a JB and 59 combo I thought, hey if its good enough for them, it should be fine for me.

And that led me to my current nightmare. Too much mid-range, harsh tones, fizziness. I went from solving the problem to making it worse. But it has been a learning experience. I never understood about resistance and knew nothing about henries...LOL.

Specs:

PRS 85/15s (Neck: A2 DC Res 8.1 and Bridge: A5 DC Res 9.0) Btw, I can't seem to find info of the resonant peak of the PRS pups...anyone know?

JB (Bridge: DC Res 16.4 and 5.5 henries)

59 (Neck: DC Res 7.4 and 6.8 henries)

Antigua, there seem to be very few pups for bridge that are rated Bridge: 8 and 4 and Neck 7 and 4. But seems to be back down near the PRS pup specs.

Anyone have any other pickup recommendations? My desired sound for the bridge is heavy hard rock but not modern metal. Somewhere in between. My original material is Porcupine Tree meets Alterbridge meets Tool meets Zeppelin. Some of it also a bit Pink Floydy so important for good clean ambient tones. Very derivative but fun to play.

Have a great day,

Derek

I don't think those values are right, the JB measured 8 henries for me, and the '59 neck measured 4.4 henries, and I think those values are close to the average for those pickups. I would guess the PRS pickups are on the hotter side based on the DC resistance values, and it appearing that PRS stock pickups lean vintage-hot. 

I disagree with the idea of associating inductance and even resonant peak with non-fizzy distortion, because the roll off is as important, I'd say moreso, as the resonant peak. Case in point, Telecasters have a really good overdriven tone, but in order to get it you have to roll back the tone knob. Strat have probably been patient zero when it comes to people believing low inductance single coils can't do overdrive, but Strats also come wired without a tone control on the bridge pickup, which makes them almost unsuitable for high gain by itself, though a some well known players have pulled it off anyway. 

The original reason for high inductance was because the added coil turns produced more voltage and caused a non master volume amp to saturate more easily, and the fact that treble was knocked out was sort of a nice feature, it could  enhance the "crunch" sound by removing higher harmonics, and thereby clipping just the lower harmonic, but I think in practice people are coming around to realizing that with master volume amps, especially modeling amps that perfectly emulate the tone of a cranked double stack, people are realizing that a higher resonant peak affords more versatility at any gain level. I see more people on The Gear Page saying "who else prefers low output pickups for high gain?" 

[gckelloch]

Nov 18, 2021 12:32:23 GMT -5 antigua said:

Nov 16, 2021 19:46:38 GMT -5 musicman said:

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

When I decided to replace the stock PRS pups, it was because I felt they were harsh, like there was too much mid-range that I couldn't EQ out of the sound.

Being a novice I probably made the same mistake as many and just listened to samples of sounds on the net, so with the myriad of choices it was quite confusing. And then when I saw on the Seymour Duncan site that so and so guitarists used a JB and 59 combo I thought, hey if its good enough for them, it should be fine for me.

And that led me to my current nightmare. Too much mid-range, harsh tones, fizziness. I went from solving the problem to making it worse. But it has been a learning experience. I never understood about resistance and knew nothing about henries...LOL.

Specs:

PRS 85/15s (Neck: A2 DC Res 8.1 and Bridge: A5 DC Res 9.0) Btw, I can't seem to find info of the resonant peak of the PRS pups...anyone know?

JB (Bridge: DC Res 16.4 and 5.5 henries)

59 (Neck: DC Res 7.4 and 6.8 henries)

Antigua, there seem to be very few pups for bridge that are rated Bridge: 8 and 4 and Neck 7 and 4. But seems to be back down near the PRS pup specs.

Anyone have any other pickup recommendations? My desired sound for the bridge is heavy hard rock but not modern metal. Somewhere in between. My original material is Porcupine Tree meets Alterbridge meets Tool meets Zeppelin. Some of it also a bit Pink Floydy so important for good clean ambient tones. Very derivative but fun to play.

Have a great day,

Derek

I don't think those values are right, the JB measured 8 henries for me, and the '59 neck measured 4.4 henries, and I think those values are close to the average for those pickups. I would guess the PRS pickups are on the hotter side based on the DC resistance values, and it appearing that PRS stock pickups lean vintage-hot. 

I disagree with the idea of associating inductance and even resonant peak with non-fizzy distortion, because the roll off is as important, I'd say moreso, as the resonant peak. Case in point, Telecasters have a really good overdriven tone, but in order to get it you have to roll back the tone knob. Strat have probably been patient zero when it comes to people believing low inductance single coils can't do overdrive, but Strats also come wired without a tone control on the bridge pickup, which makes them almost unsuitable for high gain by itself, though a some well known players have pulled it off anyway. 

The original reason for high inductance was because the added coil turns produced more voltage and caused a non master volume amp to saturate more easily, and the fact that treble was knocked out was sort of a nice feature, it could  enhance the "crunch" sound by removing higher harmonics, and thereby clipping just the lower harmonic, but I think in practice people are coming around to realizing that with master volume amps, especially modeling amps that perfectly emulate the tone of a cranked double stack, people are realizing that a higher resonant peak affords more versatility at any gain level. I see more people on The Gear Page saying "who else prefers low output pickups for high gain?" 

Of course the high end roll-off is important, and a guitar pickup rolls off at least 12dB/octave above the resonant peak. That's what I get with my low value caps on the tone knobs of my SC's, but I also ground the outer tone pot lug to slightly reduce the peak, and I prefer the sound with the knob not down quite all the way.

The bridge pickup on a Tele averages 3.5H, but the Brass or Steel baseplate reduces the peak and rolls off the highs a bit, so turning the tone knob down even half way would likely roll off above ~2kHz with an average capacitance cable. Again, you don't even need that when going into a high gain pedal or amp channel because they usually roll-off at ~2kHz. Yes, a ~2.8H Strat bridge pickup with no baseplate, only one 250k pot and a strong ~4k peak might be too much even for a modern high gain channel, while an Fe core ~4H HB with two 500K pots and a nearly flat response out to 4kHz or so could fine.

I also prefer lower inductance pickups for high gain. My 3.6H Wilde L280SL has a to-die-for cranked Marshall tone, but it has a Steel baseplate, two 250k pots on it, and I use a 160pF cable. Hendrix used a very long 2n4F coil cable that gave his bridge Strat pickups a 1.5~2kHz peak. The very low impedance of the Germanium FF or Vox Wah he plugged into damped it way down when his guitar volume knob was up, but it came back up to create a really nice sparkle when he rolled his volume down.  

[antigua]

Nov 18, 2021 13:22:45 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

Nov 18, 2021 12:32:23 GMT -5 antigua said:

Of course the high end roll-off is important, and a guitar pickup rolls off at least 12dB/octave above the resonant peak. That's what I get with my low value caps on the tone knobs of my SC's, but I also ground the outer tone pot lug to slightly reduce the peak, and I prefer the sound with the knob not down quite all the way.

The bridge pickup on a Tele averages 3.5H, but the Brass or Steel baseplate reduces the peak and rolls off the highs a bit, so turning the tone knob down even half way would likely roll off above ~2kHz with an average capacitance cable. Again, you don't even need that when going into a high gain pedal or amp channel because they usually roll-off at ~2kHz. Yes, a ~2.8H Strat bridge pickup with no baseplate, only one 250k pot and a strong ~4k peak might be too much even for a modern high gain channel, while an Fe core ~4H HB with two 500K pots and a nearly flat response out to 4kHz or so could fine.

I also prefer lower inductance pickups for high gain. My 3.6H Wilde L280SL has a to-die-for cranked Marshall tone, but it has a Steel baseplate, two 250k pots on it, and I use a 160pF cable. Hendrix used a very long 2n4F coil cable that gave his bridge Strat pickups a 1.5~2kHz peak. The very low impedance of the Germanium FF or Vox Wah he plugged into damped it way down when his guitar volume knob was up, but it came back up to create a really nice sparkle when he rolled his volume down.  

The average peak resonance of a Tele bridge pickup is still above 3kHz with 470pF load, they're brighter than PAFs both in terms of inductance and lack of comb filtering.

The slope past resonance is more gradual when the tone knob is rolled back, so the roll off of harmonics of a low inductance pickup that is gradually rolled off, is not as abrupt as a high inductance pickup with an abrupt roll off. You cna really hear the difference if you operate the tone control, and then compared it to toggling a cap selector, which drops the peak frequency in steps, and it sound a lot more like a Wah Wah pedal when you retain the peak Q factor but shift down the peak frequency. 

A lot of people talk about the JB having an annoying high end, which is counter intuitive because it has a low resonant peak, but I think what's happening is that the abruptness of the attenuation create the perception of a treble that is unpleasant. 

A test I did a while ago of a Tele base plate show the difference was about 200mH increase in inductance. To me, it's pointless, because all it does is increase the inductance, it doesn't increase the output by any significant amount, because among other things, the reluctance of the AlNiCo pole pieces is a lot higher than steel. Fender added it either as shielding, or as a keeper for the AlNiCo, it wasn't put there to make the pickup sound different anyhow. 

[gckelloch]

Nov 18, 2021 22:10:25 GMT -5 antigua said:

Nov 18, 2021 13:22:45 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

Of course the high end roll-off is important, and a guitar pickup rolls off at least 12dB/octave above the resonant peak. That's what I get with my low value caps on the tone knobs of my SC's, but I also ground the outer tone pot lug to slightly reduce the peak, and I prefer the sound with the knob not down quite all the way.

The bridge pickup on a Tele averages 3.5H, but the Brass or Steel baseplate reduces the peak and rolls off the highs a bit, so turning the tone knob down even half way would likely roll off above ~2kHz with an average capacitance cable. Again, you don't even need that when going into a high gain pedal or amp channel because they usually roll-off at ~2kHz. Yes, a ~2.8H Strat bridge pickup with no baseplate, only one 250k pot and a strong ~4k peak might be too much even for a modern high gain channel, while an Fe core ~4H HB with two 500K pots and a nearly flat response out to 4kHz or so could fine.

I also prefer lower inductance pickups for high gain. My 3.6H Wilde L280SL has a to-die-for cranked Marshall tone, but it has a Steel baseplate, two 250k pots on it, and I use a 160pF cable. Hendrix used a very long 2n4F coil cable that gave his bridge Strat pickups a 1.5~2kHz peak. The very low impedance of the Germanium FF or Vox Wah he plugged into damped it way down when his guitar volume knob was up, but it came back up to create a really nice sparkle when he rolled his volume down.  

The average peak resonance of a Tele bridge pickup is still above 3kHz with 470pF load, they're brighter than PAFs both in terms of inductance and lack of comb filtering.

The slope past resonance is more gradual when the tone knob is rolled back, so the roll off of harmonics of a low inductance pickup that is gradually rolled off, is not as abrupt as a high inductance pickup with an abrupt roll off. You cna really hear the difference if you operate the tone control, and then compared it to toggling a cap selector, which drops the peak frequency in steps, and it sound a lot more like a Wah Wah pedal when you retain the peak Q factor but shift down the peak frequency. 

A lot of people talk about the JB having an annoying high end, which is counter intuitive because it has a low resonant peak, but I think what's happening is that the abruptness of the attenuation create the perception of a treble that is unpleasant. 

A test I did a while ago of a Tele base plate show the difference was about 200mH increase in inductance. To me, it's pointless, because all it does is increase the inductance, it doesn't increase the output by any significant amount, because among other things, the reluctance of the AlNiCo pole pieces is a lot higher than steel. Fender added it either as shielding, or as a keeper for the AlNiCo, it wasn't put there to make the pickup sound different anyhow. 

Well, 3.5H at 7k DCR (w/~100pf internal C), a 470pF cable, and two 250k pots into a 1M input shows a 2.5dB peak at 3kHz in the "GuitarFreak.xls". I'd be curious if that would indeed produce the "fizz" guitar players speak of with whatever amp and speaker.

Perhaps the annoying high end of an 8H JB is from those using a high capacitance cable that puts the peak in the 1~1.5kHz range, and with a particular amp and/or speaker? I never tried a JB, but I was surprised at how much I could boost the 2~2.2kHz range with an EQ on my SC's B4 it started sounding annoyingly nasal or whatever. Even +6dB sounded fine into a Marshall-type amp preset.

Anyway, this is getting to the point of beating a dead horse for me. I'll leave off unless there are new developments with the OP's issue.