frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Jun 19, 2017 10:14:51 GMT -5
Evans pickups made bridge-only single width linear humbuckers. That's okay I suppose, but the tonality of the G and D are being altered quite a bit by entering the other coil (in either polarity) The middle two strings always sound combed. Less so in the offset G&L Z-Coil arrangement.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Jun 18, 2017 10:37:25 GMT -5
And for clarity's sake, I'm not in agreement with Jarno's explanation by proxy. I just shared his site. When I say his product is the closest thing to success that's first hand knowledge and I'm referring to the performance. He basically did some of what I did with the additional magnets and offset coil geometry, but he angled the coils for even more distance, whereas mine were in line.
Mike's a self appointed terminology hall monitor, I get it. I use the term "disturb" all the time, and will continue to do so along with other poetic explanations. Sorry if that...disturbs your magnetic field, then keep writing up those demerits for the principal. I don't think it's a big deal. People describe car troubles to mechanics with all sorts of illustrative words and mouth noises too.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Jun 17, 2017 20:23:47 GMT -5
Bottom line, it's an ineffective design that clearly didn't work for them. Without saying too much, there was a time when I explored a project such as this. I made some prototypes that performed better than these, but none were good, and all had artifacts in G and D to the point I said no thank you. Fender's criteria, as you might imagine, is that the pickup has to look traditional in that the 6 poles had to be centered in the cover. So angling 3 poles is out, as is offsetting them uniformly. They (clearly) went ahead with the project, and made something unsellable which performs worse than the thing I wouldn't even release. If you want to have some fun, with most of these you can bend the G string past the crossover point, not playing anything at all but muting the string, and you'll still hear a hash noise in the transition, literally just from dragging the string across at a healthy velocity. I've also had conversations with Jarno Salo on the subject. His pickups are the closest to cramming success into a single coil shell, though he still has artifacts. www.salopickups.com/z-stealth/ As for the altered locations, yes the Fender XII and subsequent G&L Comanche Z-Coils did this, and it works out fine. But with the poles in-line it's just not going to ever compete with other designs in my opinion. If Fender wants in-line pole pieces, this can never be "better" than today's best-in-class stack designs.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on May 17, 2017 23:49:15 GMT -5
I tested an Ibanez TSA30 30 watt tube amp, went in the front, came out the effects send, but strangely this doesn't seem to go through a pre-amp, it looks more like it's straight through. None of the gain or EQ knobs have any effect on the output signal, so unfortunately it doesn't look like I can get a read on how it effects the signal without sampling from the speaker out. That's because that amp was designed like having a Tube Screamer pedal in front of the tube amp. The Loop is between the Tube Screamer and the front end of the amp. Like if you had a Tube Screamer on your pedalboard, there would likely be pedals after it. It's detailed in the block diagram of the amp in the manual. www.ibanez.com/world/manual/amp/TSA30.pdf
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Apr 5, 2017 20:09:13 GMT -5
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 31, 2017 17:56:39 GMT -5
Interestingly, I see a consistently higher voltage if I play a B chord in the form of open E at the 7th fret...You can see it's a non trivial difference...An E chord at the 12th fret doesn't sound that much louder to me than an open E, but the Fletcher Munson curve probably has something to do with that. How high is the action on the guitar? Meaning how much closer do the 3 fretted strings get to the pickup when you press them down?
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 30, 2017 17:27:02 GMT -5
What does having a battery onboard have to do with digital manipulation? Or purity of concept? Literally the very next thing your guitar signal contacts on the other side of the cable is powered.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 25, 2017 17:34:57 GMT -5
Some other observable phenomena to use as a cross reference are the way a string can produce an out of tune or double (chorused) pitch under this focused field too close to the string. This is similar to what can happen when someone says they have a "bad string" which is a string with an inconsistency (heavy spot) within the plain or core, or a wrap that's bulging or compressed in one area and not in the other.
The other is that in a guitar with low action, there can be a point where raising the neck single coil close enough to the strings will cause more fret buzz to occur. This is one way (as well as cameras) we can see a measurable pull-down.
All this to say that if establishing a string window parameter there will be a point where proximity has a drawback that exceeds the benefit. Like you might discover that the "best" place for one attribute is not good for another.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 24, 2017 18:05:44 GMT -5
It's because of the pattern increases as you get further away from the bridge. You say these things with a lot of certainty, but a lot more supporting evidence is required before we can claim to have actual certainty. Not only evidence, but also theories. "Pattern" sounds like a feature of a theory that have not heard articulated. Maybe we're not saying the same thing then, or you're not hearing me right. I'll try to isolate each thing I'm saying: When a pole piece gets too close to a string it can cause a warbly sound, that is pretty universally disliked. Some refer to this as Strat-itis. All things equal, this happens more on the neck pickup than the middle, and more on the middle than the bridge. The reason is because the string vibrates in a larger pattern the further from the bridge you get. That's all I'm saying. It's more vulnerable.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 24, 2017 14:29:58 GMT -5
In other words, a bridge humbucker sounds more "lively" when it is close to the strings. Putting the neck pickup close to the strings instead does not also cause the lowered bridge humbucker to sound more "lively". The effect seems to relate to the selected pickup AND string interact, not in how all of the pickups, selected or not, effect the string magnetically. It's because of the pattern increases as you get further away from the bridge.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 24, 2017 11:42:13 GMT -5
I think you are saying neo cannot easily be disturbed, not that the results of doing so are bad! I don't want to derail the thread, sorry. But since you're rephrasing me I'll clarify that yes I have said it within the context of my personal feelings in pickup designs, at least for electric guitar. I don't like it's use in electric guitar pickups. Theres an attack and early envelope I don't love. It's been proven effective in acoustic soundhole pickups (usually set much further from the strings and with non-magnetic wrap material) and it can be effective in bass with the greater string mass. Another exception is that Tom Anderson uses it on some pickups, but it's that soft, flexible neo strip magnet material that does not exhibit the same qualities.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 24, 2017 11:27:25 GMT -5
If time permits, I'll just try placing the whole pickup over the test pickup. That's the cleanest option. nah don't bother that will change the return path yet again if there are poles below the ceramic. I was trying to show a correlation between the base magnet material and the volume drop off you see at farther distances that's all.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 24, 2017 0:35:35 GMT -5
In other forums and on podcasts, I've used the phrase "neodymium is a magnet that doesn't like to be disturbed." Now, without everyone keyboard warrior-ing me for using Sesame Street terms, do you have the ability to repeat the amplitude tests with a ceramic bar underneath the steel pole? It doesn't have to be the two opposing bars flanking the poles like some cheap singles, just one across the middle.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 23, 2017 9:17:29 GMT -5
...on a 5mm plane above a humbucker. It looks as though the field from the slug side is very weak. Am I missing something? He's 5mm off the surface on a covered humbucker. So the slugs are probably 6-7mm away and not domed on top like the screws are. The difference at the peaks is only 60 vs 54 but then the slug overtakes the screw measurement toward the outside, accounting for the splay of the dome top and the elongated return path assuming they're normal length screw poles. If you're not married to the poles cut them flush with the baseplate and re-read.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 21:03:15 GMT -5
Alright, since you're here now, no need to refer to that other thread. I know Kevin Beller www.seymourduncan.com/company/get-to-know-us/kevin-beller has held the title of "V. P. of Engineering" for a long time, and is called "the designer" on their newly designed site. Did you cooperate with him in designing the P-Rails, or was it more your own project? As you must know from reading my posts over the years, I have to be very deliberate about what I say regarding some of the work I do. Therefore I limit what I say on the subject to things that I have said in the past and placed into public domain while I worked there, as well as anything that predates the relationship. I invented the P-Rails in Illinois, began talking to Seymour Duncan about licensing it to them, during which their New Products guy left the company. I was hired to fill that position, and within about a year we released the P-Rails. The web page you linked uses apropos nicknames of sorts, but yes I am the designer of the P-Rails. I would also ask that, in total confidence, you would inform me if you've heard any different. That said, everything is a team effort. I did a lot of my own fab work for the prototypes, but aside from the ones I made in Illinois prior to the relationship, MJ wound the prototypes, Engineering drew the parts in Solidworks, Ops sourced the parts, etc. so I don't want to be misconstrued as overstating either. I hope that answers the question because there may not be much else I can add.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 20:16:39 GMT -5
Hey… Did you get the bridge P90 mixed up with the bridge rail? It's the bridge P90 that is ~10k and the rail that is ~8K.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 19:59:11 GMT -5
Do these work well, together, if you have the neck on p90 and the bridge on humbucker? I'm not asking about having them both on, but separately. Lets say I have it on neck p90, playing some rhythm, and then for a lead, i want to switch to bridge humbucker. Will there be a large mismatch in tone, where you would have to adjust the tone knob or amp, to get the right balance, between the two? Since we're on the subject of P-Rails, a fun fact is that the commenter in this thread guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7907/string-pickup-sample , Frank Falbo, apparently played a big role in the design process of the P-Rails, while working for Seymour Duncan. If you do, you'll see what a warm, loving welcome I've received in that thread from various individuals. I'm not sure if that's why he directed you there, I'm not sure what it has to do with this thread but...enjoy. As has been said, it's a big, loud humbucker but not off the charts. So the bridge humbucker does balance as you'd expect a healthy humbucker to do with a neck P90. Sometimes people think the neck humbucker is a little loud, I like it for thicker Santana type solos but I also like it in parallel. It's closer in output to the P90. I think if that's your main concern, you'll be happy with them. The rails are a big jump down, but not much different than if you'd set the guitar down, and picked up a vintage Strat style guitar.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 16:26:34 GMT -5
AFAIK, in order to get group delay, you need some sort of "grouping" agent. For example, you have an analogue multiband EQ, some frequency bands pass through some capacitors, some bands pass through others, and then all arrive at the output with various phases as a result of RLC filtering, hence "groups" of "delay". You can also have group delay with speakers, again due to the physical distinction of moving energy through air. With a speaker, low frequencies are more movement-restricted than high frequencies. How would/could this concept manifest in a guitar pickup? I apologize for straying from the topic of magnetic aperture, but I think there is value in novel suppositions about pickups that have never before been evaluated in a physics-focused space. It is true that group delay does not relate to the string window discussion. We got there because I said neglecting neighboring poles impacts the string window test you were conducting, and suggested an electric piano style tine perpendicular to the would-be string axis. Perhaps where only the tip is magnetic. From there we get to phase anomalies and eventually ms is talking about how if a coil is wide enough, the return path is a variable. What I'm saying is that with one lone pole in the center of the pickup, you do have coil "width" in the return path because your return path is cyllindrical. Neighboring poles would be adding focus, and pushing the return path out and around. Now, unlike ms I don't feel the coil has to be unconventionally wide to be affected. There is return flux practically on the skin, admittedly minuscule but as you've seen, I don't generally dismiss minutiae. So I'm happy to agree to disagree about it's meaningfulness in a fully loaded coil.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 15:48:27 GMT -5
How is anything that I have said in disagreement with the two things you just posted? Group delay and return flux are both responsible for anomalies. Where did I say something outside of that? I do not think return flux is responsible for anomalies. Its effects are apparent from the law of magnetic induction. I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to do by brining up groups delay. That reply was directed to me? I am not sure since you do not quote, or otherwise indicate who you are addressing. Yeah I guess I'll use quote more. It's cumbersome on mobile and I didn't realize so many people were jumping in when I replied. It's a real party line right now.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 15:45:28 GMT -5
Technically 180° wouldn't be referred to as comb filtering because it's full range, right?
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 15:35:27 GMT -5
How is anything that I have said in disagreement with the two things you just posted? Group delay and return flux are both responsible for anomalies. Where did I say something outside of that?
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 15:08:42 GMT -5
What am I pretending exactly? Do I sign PhD after my name? All I try to do is tell you guys if/when you're missing something, and the ONLY time I do is when errant conclusions are reached and then propagated as fact around the water cooler so to speak.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 14:21:31 GMT -5
I told you you wouldn't like it.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 13:33:25 GMT -5
Yeah you're still thinking of comb filtering as it relates to the string window off the Tillman article. Yes, that's a thing too but I'm talking about as it relates to the coil's proximity to the strings.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 13:07:11 GMT -5
If you want to get into the HiFi voodoo jargon that you probably won't like, one phenomenon is referred to as group delay. Highs/mids/lows out of time alignment with one another, in a smear. Proprietary testing methods notwithstanding, it's easier for me to show the effects manifested than it is to show it on screen. This is where on other forums you've heard me talk about all the notes in a complex chord to be able to survive heavy gain; that it is not as much frequency dependent as it is time alignment.
But really it's quite simple to see a part of it on a macro level by recording both coils from an equally wound stack, and playing around with the amplitude, looking for time alignment anomalies...And it's not necessary for you to concede to any time-based causality in a wire-wound coil, traversing closer to, and further from the string, even though I'm saying there is something there. You can just attribute it to out of phase flux disturbance of you like. The result is the same.
You can even start cutting it up into different frequency bands with band pass filters and looking at sections against one another.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 12:09:31 GMT -5
We can see an apparent aperture change with distance. This means that, if you think of a pickup as many little pickups stacked together in series, the pickup at the bottom of the stack has a wider aperture than the pickup at the top of the stack: A Strat coil is about 12mm tall. At the top of the stack, the aperture is sharp like a pencil, but at the bottom, it's nearly flat like the eraser end. The peak dBm was -24.5 at the top, and -44.7 at the bottom, a 20dB drop to the bottom of the coil, with more than 50% of this loss occurring between 3mm and 6mm. No...Please can everyone else help me out with this one? Your aperture readings...your display of the string window widening with distance from the top of the pole do not translate into a widening of the string window as seen by the bottom of the coil. The magnet has a return path. The string window is not infinitely widening in aperture further down the pole. Not really. I mean you're right that the degree of amplitude and phase imbalance correlates to the degree of impact, but in your words, no it does not have to be "equal or nearly equal in amplitude" to be strong enough to have an effect. I realize this is a flawed analogy, but if you have those two mics in different positions, all it takes is a tiny bleed of volume for the combing to be audible, not near equal loudness.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 11:54:44 GMT -5
Jeeeez I try to give you some encouragement and your response is personal attack? You're looking for a fight that doesn't exist. As for being polarizing or combative, I'm pretty sure your online history in aggregate fits that description. I get along with pretty much everybody, except some people who have the reputation of being polarizing. What I mean is, when you stack the neos you change the shape of the field. It's not just the strength increasing. And what you're discovering with the pole further from the coil also changes with neighboring poles being higher, level, or below. And with all due respect, what matters at the end of the day, is putting an instrument in someone's hands that brings them joy, or catharsis, or whatever else the arts provide society. I realize that doesn't fit the format of this sub-group, sorry.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 10:13:14 GMT -5
MS: I honestly can't tell if you're asking a question or making a declarative statement. Are you asking why it's a more efficient coil? Or declaring that it isn't; that I'm wrong? I was asked how I seem to have some deeper information about what's happening within the coil and I replied that part of it is from Fluence R&D, partly through stack R&D...
You can learn some of this with an old stack design, where the top and bottom coils are equal and the magnet penetrates the coil. Track the coils sepeately, look at them in isolation, overlay them, check time alignment if you have that level of precision available...but if some of the theories presented here were correct, you should be able to increase the amplitude of the bottom coil until the two signals cancel 100%. But they never will. So at the point of the highest cancellation, what is left behind tells part of the story of comb filtering within the coil.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 4:29:58 GMT -5
What do you mean when you say a core has a resonant peak of 80KHz? Mike, I understood what Frank meant...80 KHz self-resonant frequency... There's actually a reason I asked Frank about the "over 5Khz" response. I'm still on the fence about whether anything over flat response to 8 Khz to 10 Khz is necessary for a magnetic guitar pickup. I'm intrigued by Frank's statements that it does matter and is audible. Currently I'm in the medium Z design space without preamping, and with about a 10-12 KHz self-resonance, at the expense of only about 6 dB of reduced output. Right. And let's be clear I'm not suggesting "flat out to XXK" is pleasing. What I'm referring to, is for example, if within the response curve of say a PAF or Strat, you alter information past 8 or 10K, those deltas ARE meaningful. Re: Medium Z, my latest batch of guitars are solidbodies with P90's, and since Fishman hasn't released a P90 I'm winding my own for them, with 41AWG Cardas wire, with phenomenal results and passive. In a way, it's still R&D for Fluence in that we might use these as one of the benchmarks when we create a P90 someday. I can not say but no, it does not need to be that high. The Fluence cores are much more efficient than a micro-coil or anything you can wind. They don't translate to a wire gauge's behavior at all. There are some characteristics that would be associated with higher gauges and some with lower gauges, but the audio produced from this type of coil stack outperforms anything wire-wound.
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frankfalbo
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Post by frankfalbo on Mar 20, 2017 4:15:06 GMT -5
Theory: we know the permeable steel increases the overall output, in accordance with basic transformer core theory, but maybe the steel pole piece disproportionately "rewards" the segment of string that is closest to itself, while the less permeable AlNiCo is relatively "indifferent", or non-interactive, with the segment of string that it is closest to, making for a "wider window". But are you starting to see how a neighboring pole piece might have an effect on either or both of these theories? You've already surprised yourself a couple times here. And please don't discount that the extra neos have also altered the shape of your field both above and below the coil (or is it below and above since you're on top of the strings?) No, I'm not looking for validation if that's what you're implying. I'm looking to stop the spread of false and/or misleading information. If I see something out there like, "a difference of 1dB at 8kHz is inaudible" or when you've said "Humans can't reliably detect differences of 1dB or less" it's false within the parameters of what we're dealing with, because 1dB does not equal 1dB out the speaker. If you won't listen to my experiences then I'll just have to try to knock down some of these statements on other forums when I come across them. Of COURSE it does. If I duplicate a home-test to prove out something that is a manifestation of knowledge gained from proprietary R&D conducted while employed I most certainly have transgressed an NDA, possibly a non-compete, but most of all, violate trust that people have in me. It would demonstrate a lack of integrity. I need to make a living at this. I don't have a "day job" like some of you. I have a beautiful wife and 4 kids. I'm not going to threaten their well being just to win some internet argument about phase anomalies.
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