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Post by asmith on Aug 10, 2022 5:26:45 GMT -5
Figures in USD for convenience. I'm a student and part-time worker. My income after tax and after I've paid my housing is about $1000 a month. My monthly food bill is about $250. I have about $12500 saved in a bank account. Someone I know is offering me a Fender Super-Sonic [ EDIT: combo amp] for $825. I've played it, I like it, I dig its versatility, it's in great condition, and the price includes an extra two-speaker cab [ EDIT: in addition to the combo]. Do I buy it? What would you do? Is buying 'capital' such as the amp perhaps an OK way to beat inflation (for all of $825-worth)? The only thing holding me back here is that I'm simply anxious about spending money. Talk me either in or out of it, please. [ EDIT: Picture for reference here] |
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 10, 2022 6:53:50 GMT -5
They seem to hover around $700.00-$950.00 over here without the extra cabinet, so the price is fair.
I would ask a couple questions first.
1.) Are you playing and\or recording?
2.) Where will you play it, or are your neighbors deaf? I have a 15watt Fender Super Champ XD with a 10" speaker and that thing will drive you out of the room...
3.) Are you married yet?
On the other hand, it is a new amp...or new to you....
HTC1
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Post by asmith on Aug 10, 2022 7:13:31 GMT -5
1.) Are you playing and\or recording? 2.) Where will you play it, or are your neighbors deaf? I have a 15watt Fender Super Champ XD with a 10" speaker and that thing will drive you out of the room... 3.) Are you married yet? 1.) Not regularly, but I'd like to be. The pandemic really hit home how much I missed playing in a band and playing live. 2.) I'll play it either in a rented sound-proofed rehearsal space, or at home. At home, I'll be using the FX Loop's inbuilt volume controls to get –48 dB gain reduction, along with a compressor in the Loop set to less-than-unity gain. 3.) Not yet! Now's my chance! Though I like to think I wouldn't marry her if she wasn't cool with me purchasing said amp. I'm sure we all like to think that. |
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Post by newey on Aug 10, 2022 8:07:28 GMT -5
I'm with Cyn, sounds like a lot of amp for what you'll use it for. You might look for something with less than 22 watts, and might be cheaper as well. Remember that tube amps for a given wattage are generally louder than SS amps.
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Post by asmith on Aug 10, 2022 8:20:44 GMT -5
You might look for something with less than 22 watts... Lol, it's the 60-watt version. |
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 10, 2022 10:05:56 GMT -5
Man, 60 watts...no studio apartment in your future...
That strikes me as a gigging rig. I say this because when I was out in Oregon I scored a Trace Elliot GP12 amp...with what I thought was a modest 280 watts... Gain never gets off of 2 and volume hits 3 when the wife isn't around...any louder and the airport calls...they can't hear the planes...
It would be a good investment if you planned to get back in a band. You have a solid rig that pays for itself in a few gigs...
You still have that girl friend...or did her eyesight come back?
HTC1
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Post by asmith on Aug 10, 2022 10:14:15 GMT -5
I missed you, Cyn.
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Post by newey on Aug 10, 2022 11:41:59 GMT -5
I didn't know there was a 60-watt version. To me, a Supersonic was just a twin reverb with a gain channel. Is this solid state or tube?
I have aFender Princeton 60, which is solid state, nothing like the 15-watt tube Princetons. I don't play it much as it's way too loud to get it cranking, it's OK for cleans at low volume. For low volume with any kind of gain, my 40-watt Peavey with the "Pre-" and "Post" gain controls works better, I can dial in the gain on the Pre and dial it back on the post.
Of course, I'm not in any band- nor would any band want my ham-handed playing!
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 10, 2022 12:10:50 GMT -5
Remember that tube amps for a given wattage are generally louder than SS amps. Is this actually true, and if so why? Like of course speaker sensitivity can play a part, but if we use the same cab…. We know that there are several different ways to measure power - peak, rms, continuous, THD tolerances, etc. So what’s actually different between a tube watt and an ss watt? |
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 10, 2022 12:22:10 GMT -5
...So what’s actually different between a tube watt and an ss watt? About $400-$2000.00 these days... HTC1 |
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Post by asmith on Aug 10, 2022 12:32:30 GMT -5
I didn't know there was a 60-watt version. To me, a Supersonic was just a twin reverb with a gain channel. Is this solid state or tube? It's a tube amp. Here's the ProGuitarShop YouTube video on the 22-watt version. Here's the schematic.
The amp has two modes titled "Vintage" and "Burn". The "Burn" mode runs the signal through two 12AX7 tubes to offer grit on tap, and features a master volume control. The "Vintage" mode pulls out one of the 12AX7s from the circuit, and denies you a master volume control. But the "Vintage" mode also lets you pick between (what's supposed to sound like) a '66 Bassman or a '65 Vibrolux. It's really versatile. I don't believe this is true! |
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Post by unreg on Aug 10, 2022 15:07:32 GMT -5
Someone I know is offering me a Fender Super-Sonic for $825. … Talk me either in or out of it, please. They seem to hover around $700.00-$950.00 over here without the extra cabinet, so the price is fair. HTC1 For maybe just me, this seems like a good deal, since you are buying the guitar, that you say plays very well for you and you like it, at a reasonable price. Plus, you know the seller. Plus, you get a super strong cab tube amp that, if turns out too strong for you, you can probably sell it. So, that’s reasonable ++, pretty cool deal, imo, at least.  That’s aside from whatever effect the purchase would have on your girlfriend. |
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Post by unreg on Aug 10, 2022 16:51:06 GMT -5
[EDIT]Sry for not reading ashcatlt clearly. He wasn’t talking about amps.[/EDIT] ...So what’s actually different between a tube watt and an ss watt? About $400-$2000.00 these days... HTC1 So, asmith, if you choose to sell the 60watt tube amp, that should, at least, take your price, you would pay, down to $425. -$825 + $400 = -$425. and, $425 is a SMALL amount for that guitar, at least that’s what cynical1 makes it seem. |
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Post by gckelloch on Aug 10, 2022 17:43:56 GMT -5
You could just get the amp and buy a reactive load box to run b4 the speaker so you can get some amp compression at bedroom levels. You can mic the speaker or send a DI from it and monitor through stage monitors. I think that's the norm now in clubs, anyway. Torpedo is a good brand, but something cheaper might be just fine. I'd also consider if you like the stock speaker. It may be an older spikey Chinese V30. They are pretty nasty. I might get an American-voiced speaker as a replacement. A Ceramic Weber California with the paper dust cover won't brake the bank. A 100W Weber Ceramic 1230-55 would work quite well. Technically it's a "British" speaker, but has strong deep bass and full mids like an EVM12L with softer upper-mids from the cloth surround, and great 4kHz+ chime. The smooth cone California has a bit more piercing upper-mids like a JBL D120. Both work well in closed or open cabs.
I'd also buy a pair of Tung-sol 7581A tubes. Soon only JJ tubes will be available, and the 7581A's are the best made current 6L6 types. They are Mil spec and very nice sounding. Still on Amazon for $60 per matched pair. I assume you'll need to re-bias the amp when you put them in. You might also get some EHx 7025EH for the preamp while they are available. Those are Mil spec too.
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Post by thetragichero on Aug 10, 2022 21:31:07 GMT -5
So what’s actually different between a tube watt and an ss watt? in reality a watt is a watt. the issue is that sometime in the 90s the manufacturers of solid state amps decided that they would quote their wattage in peak wattage instead of rms wattage, which means **** all when trying to compare spl. this is why an old acoustic control corp/peavey 100w amp is LOUD and your recent solid state 100w amps are puny in comparison. i guess it helps move units so nobody seems to complain much (this is also true of pa systems and car audio) now, since decibels is a logarithmic scale, in order to obtain twice the loudness one needs 10x the wattage. so to get twice as loud as a 12w princeton reverb one needs a 120w amp. so the difference between the 22w supersonic and 60w supersonic is... not a whole lot in loudness |
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Post by sumgai on Aug 11, 2022 12:36:14 GMT -5
You could just get the amp and buy .... purchase..... buy.... purchase.... I'd also buy... buy some more.... obtain (read: buy)... Seems like you may have forgotten his first sentence, the magic qualifier: "I'm a student....." I (and several others here) personally know Ace, as 10 years ago he came over to the States and made a tour of visiting several of us during that three-month excursion. I wouldn't exactly call him a spendthrift, if you get my drift. And it gets to the heart of the matter that he's asking for advice on spending $825 USD. You and I would do it without thinking, if we wanted it badly enough. But some folks have to more closely watch their kroner, lest they find their larder much closer to empty than anyone would prefer to have it. I can't fault you for offering helpful advice, to be sure, but I think Ace will take your comments in stride only because he's pretty easy going. You couldn't ask for a nicer friend, IMHO. (Unless you're into sarcasm, then you want cynical1 on your top-ten list.  ) Not to mention, he hasn't tooted his own horn, but during jam sessions with more than a few of us, he proved that he knows what he's doing on a guitar, and can do it with class. Sorry if I came off as a pill, but it just struck me, knowing the guy as I do.
Ace, Snap it up! Worry about mods and resale value later. I've seen, I think, six or seven of these units come through the shop over a decade or perhaps a bit longer. (I'm too lazy to open my my archives and search my business records.) Most of them had over-heating problems that were solved by replacing several resistors with higher wattage ratings, and in one instance, I had to replace a faulty circuit breaker. That was probably a bad part to begin with, likely not something that was caused by abusing the amp by competing with a Marshall stack or something..... To my ears, they sounded pretty good, as a rule. Even with Celestion speakers, which I generally dislike - too much mid-range honk for my taste. HTH sumgai |
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Post by gckelloch on Aug 11, 2022 14:59:25 GMT -5
I should make it clear that I don't think the 2x12 cab is needed, and that a reactive load box might serve you better. Of course a load box or a different speaker isn't necessary. It's just a suggestion if the stock speaker sounds spikey. That may be the mid-honk issue Sumgai speaks of. Those Webers might not be the best choices either. The lack of the typical Celestion 1-2kHz dip may compound honkiness, but I assumed the Fender style tone stack would work well with a flatter midrange speaker. My guess is the smooth cone California might be better if you choose to take a chance. It's ~$150. Still, a load box and new speaker may total under $825 with just the amp. I'd be curious if gigging musicians think the 2x12 cab is at all needed.
My suggestion of the 7581A tubes is a matter of thrift, though. $60 for a matched pair is a very good price, and they may not be available anymore soon. Chances are they will last years due to being Mil Spec - constructed like the original indestructible 7581A - and the power tubes in the amp may need replacing soon anyway. Unfortunately, the 7025EH are getting expensive, having shot up nearly 2x when they first came out. That's more of a luxury. The stock preamp tubes may be just fine.
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Post by asmith on Aug 11, 2022 16:42:31 GMT -5
sumgai, you are the kindest. Thank you. I should have clarified up top that the Super-Sonic itself is a combo with a Celestion Vintage 30 in it, and that the two-speaker cab is a 212 enclosure with two extra Vintage 30s that is in addition to the combo. Here's a picture of the rig:  I'd also consider if you like the stock speaker. It may be an older spikey Chinese V30. They are pretty nasty. I might get an American-voiced speaker as a replacement. Oh this is a good point. Thank you. Fortunately I'm lucky enough to have two extra Greenbacks and two extra Blackbacks kicking around in my apartment (I got lucky with a second-hand purchase a couple years back). I might try swapping the Vintage 30s for a combination of them, and seeing what happens. This is outstanding info; thank you.
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Post by unreg on Aug 11, 2022 18:43:45 GMT -5
Are your ears still working? p.s. asmith, congrats on the acquisition!  |
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Post by newey on Aug 11, 2022 20:38:41 GMT -5
unreg- asmith hasn't said he bought it yet. But it looks to be in really great shape, and with the extra cab, I don't think you can go wrong- I agree with sg, now that I've see it, snap it up!
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Post by gckelloch on Aug 11, 2022 22:34:56 GMT -5
sumgai, you are the kindest. Thank you. I should have clarified up top that the Super-Sonic itself is a combo with a Celestion Vintage 30 in it, and that the two-speaker cab is a 212 enclosure with two extra Vintage 30s that is in addition to the combo. Here's a picture of the rig: I'd also consider if you like the stock speaker. It may be an older spikey Chinese V30. They are pretty nasty. I might get an American-voiced speaker as a replacement. Oh this is a good point. Thank you. Fortunately I'm lucky enough to have two extra Greenbacks and two extra Blackbacks kicking around in my apartment (I got lucky with a second-hand purchase a couple years back). I might try swapping the Vintage 30s for a combination of them, and seeing what happens. This is outstanding info; thank you. Looks like a nice rig. Hard to beat a Greenback (G12M25-75)/Blackback (G12H30-55 or G12M25-55) combo. Still might be a bit mid-scooped, but worth a try. You might get even some cashback for whatever V30's you don't use. I discovered today that TheTubeStore.com is selling the 7025EH for $30 -- not bad. May be worth trying one in the most overdriven 12AX7 slot if the stock tube isn't as sweet. Wawah Weewah, 8 preamp tubes in that amp! Again, who knows how long Russian tubes will be available, and prices will increase as supply dwindles. |
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Post by asmith on Aug 12, 2022 2:05:26 GMT -5
Hard to beat a Greenback (G12M25-75)/Blackback (G12H30-55 or G12M25-55) combo. Still might be a bit mid-scooped, but worth a try. I'll give it a shot. I don't mind the mid-scoop. I'm fond of the Funk #49 and Stevie Ray Vaughan sounds. Thanks for the tip! |
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Post by gckelloch on Aug 12, 2022 3:45:57 GMT -5
I forgot that a cheap way to alter speaker tonality is with an EQ at the end of your FX Loop chain. Something with a ~3.2kHz band would be useful to minimize ear fatigue.
Correction: BTW, Joe Walsh said he recorded Funk49 with a blackface era Fender Champ. The stock 8" speaker was not scooped.
SRV favored JBL D130's and D110's, and at least one of his Fender Virbrolux amps was modified with the Vibro circuit altered to a mid boost, and he used two cascading Tube screamers. Anything but a mid-scooped rig. Still, I'd try using one of each of your Celestions with the stock V30 and setting the amp tone stack with the Midrange knob way up and the Bass and Treble down. A G12H30-55 Black Back should be similarly scooped and as bright as a Chinese V30. A British V30 has less 3kHz+ -- a pretty balanced-sounding speaker. If you find it too bright up top, you could try the Greenback up top and put the V30 in with the BB, or just drape a towel over the V30 up top. Chances are, you won't hear much above 2kHz from the speakers on the floor unless you put your ear down there, and the GB should add some 2.4kHz (and maybe some mid-bass) to the mix that you will hear better if it's up top.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 14, 2022 14:33:46 GMT -5
I reckon, if you love your guitar playing, and want to gig and play out again, and if you can transport that rig, and if you have checked out the amp and really like it and it meets your needs, then BUY it! But, I think you will need a better volume solution because getting it at its sweet spot will be loud AF, not only due to the power but also V30's are particularly efficient, and youll have three of them!. Since you are a skilful practical chap on a budget, you could build an attenuator. I have designs on the Marshal forum, I linked it here on GN but it has taken off and many have been built. 100 pounds will easily cover the parts. www.marshallforum.com/threads/simple-attenuators-design-and-testing.98285/If that's of any interest, let me know and we can discuss more. First post and last few pages. EDIT: I just looked up about that amp. I think it's great! I'd be all over it myself. I love a combo on a cab and I love V30's too.. They are very clear and articulate. Looks like the amp output is at 8 Ohm, or 4 Ohm when an extension is used. I'm not sure if the amp switches its output tap for 4, or does it just deal with it happily. That attenuator...seriously, it'd be perfect for it. |
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Post by gckelloch on Aug 16, 2022 13:09:07 GMT -5
I reckon, if you love your guitar playing, and want to gig and play out again, and if you can transport that rig, and if you have checked out the amp and really like it and it meets your needs, then BUY it! But, I think you will need a better volume solution because getting it at its sweet spot will be loud AF, not only due to the power but also V30's are particularly efficient, and youll have three of them!. Since you are a skilful practical chap on a budget, you could build an attenuator. I have designs on the Marshal forum, I linked it here on GN but it has taken off and many have been built. 100 pounds will easily cover the parts. www.marshallforum.com/threads/simple-attenuators-design-and-testing.98285/If that's of any interest, let me know and we can discuss more. First post and last few pages. EDIT: I just looked up about that amp. I think it's great! I'd be all over it myself. I love a combo on a cab and I love V30's too.. They are very clear and articulate. Looks like the amp output is at 8 Ohm, or 4 Ohm when an extension is used. I'm not sure if the amp switches its output tap for 4, or does it just deal with it happily. That attenuator...seriously, it'd be perfect for it. That looks like a very worthwhile project. Nice that there are some tone-shaping options to adjust for the F-M loudness curve at different volumes, and running a 16 Ohm cab into an 8 Ohm output can somewhat increase the midrange of a scooped cab. I assume asmith's GB's & BB's are 8 Ohm. I wonder if the volume level of the stock 8 Ohm V30 and a 16 Ohm cab would be relatively equal if run together after the attenuator? |
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Post by asmith on Aug 21, 2022 14:01:06 GMT -5
Thank you all for your wisdom, and your continued advice. The amp is in my living room. JohnH, I may build an attenuator! (After all, I have a 100W Marshall Super Bass in my bedroom that needs attenuation. ) But honestly: I will likely buy one. The amperes coming out the back of the amplifier and running into the speakers are at a deadly-enough level that building my own attenuator sounds akin to a game of Russian Roulette: what if something fails in my homebuilt device? As I understand it, it's the amperes that kill you, not the volts, and the place in the whole setup with the most amperes is exactly where the attenuator goes. So, I feel more comfortable placing my faith in something with an official regulated sticker on it. 😬 |
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Post by JohnH on Aug 21, 2022 17:14:37 GMT -5
Hi asmith , I'm excited to hear that you got the amp! is it living up to expectations? On the attenuator: I'd be the last to advise building a project that you aren't comfortable to tackle. But, the current that flows into a speaker is doing so into a low impedance and are at fairly low voltage. You'd be running nominally at say 60W into 8 ohms, power= V^2 / R so V = 22V. At that voltage, maybe you feel it but a high current can't flow through you. That's unlike voltages inside the amp which are several hundred and are dangerous. With a speaker circuit, a bad speaker or cable or a incorrectly built attenuator, the risk is to the amp where an open or shunted amp output can damage the output transformer and valves. But, the nice thing about our attenuator circuit is that it is very simple, big chunky parts, and you can verify it completely by tracing the circuit and measuring resistances as seen by the amp, before testing with the amp. It's a lot simpler than most guitar circuits (around here at least!) Every week for the last couple of years we hear of new builds of this design, on the Marshall forum and also elsewhere. There's somewhere between 50 and 100 known builds all around the world. So far as I know, every single one of them works well and is well liked! In your particular case, I'm quite certain that if you have access to the tools and have some time (soldering iron and drill, plus multimeter) then you could do this. A build suitable for both the Fender and the Marshall would need some discussion. No problem though. But, it's totally understandable if you prefer to buy. I havnt tested them myself but I've tried to keep up with what's available and how they work. It's not cheap though. I'd avoid the inexpensive ones, Bugera etc. They will mess your tone and likely overheat. If your main purpose is to attenuate the speaker volume, I'd suggest a Toneman Ironman II (best) or a Weber Mass 200 W version. Also Rivera Rockcrusher or maybe an old Marshall PowerBrake. Or if you want to work in silence with an output to mixer, pc or phones, you could look at a Suhr loadbox and Implulse Respone (IR) loader, or Torpedo Captor. Or, for all bells and whistles with variable active reamplified output and IR processing, there's Boss Tube Amp Expander, Fyrette Powersration and Universal Audio OX Box. All cost as much as a good amp though! |
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Post by asmith on Aug 29, 2022 10:47:34 GMT -5
I'm excited to hear that you got the amp! is it living up to expectations? Yes: it's loud! I've made it as apartment-friendly as I can without the attenuator: I've taken advantage of the fact that the effects loop 'send' and 'return' jack inputs both have volume controls associated with them, by running a cable between send and return and turning both volume controls down to minimum. It's still f***ing loud! 💪 Then maybe let's discuss?  If I end up buying, this is a goldmine! Thank you! |
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Post by JohnH on Aug 30, 2022 8:32:36 GMT -5
Ok! On with attenuator discussion. I think the Fender is 60W and runs with an 8 ohm output, or 4 when you use an 8 Ohm extension cab for a combined 4 Ohm load.
What are the equivalent parameters for the Marshall? and do you have any other amps or cabs, or future ones on the wish list that you'd want to allow for? There are design options for all combinations of uses, but its nice to find the simplest package that meets the needs. Then you'll be able to decide whether to tackle the build or to find another solution.
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That’s aside from whatever effect the purchase would have on your girlfriend.
) Not to mention, he hasn't tooted his own horn, but during jam sessions with more than a few of us, he proved that he knows what he's doing on a guitar, and can do it with class. 
If I end up buying, this is a goldmine! Thank you!