beating sound on high notes on the bridge pickup

[yanyan]

This is an issue which i've been investigating for a few years now. Every Internet forum thread i've read that discusses it ends up inconclusive: nobody seems to know what causes it. I'm hoping the more technical-minded people on GN2 know something about it.

The issue is as i stated in the subject: picked notes create a sort of beating, pulsing sound. This occurs on the bridge pickup playing through any amount of gain. The affected notes are usually from the high G to C# on the 3rd string (frets 12-18) and the high B to high E on the 2nd string (frets 12-17). Some notes in these ranges sound worse than the others.

I wasn't sure where to post this thread, as it could involve wiring or pickups or the entire guitar itself, so i chose the Guitars board.

If i may refer interested readers to a thread on a different forum (i hope this isn't frowned upon!), here is a link to a strat-talk thread:

www.strat-talk.com/threads/graphtech-saddles-to-help-strat-warble.555125/

This thread is the longest and most detailed of any on this topic. Here, the owner of the guitar with said issue tried practically everything but nothing helped.

I've been having the same issue, though not as bad as the guy had it, for a long time now. It affects my Squier Stratocaster and Warmoth partscaster, but not my RG.

[cynical1]

Well, that was a long post...which I admit to not getting through all 9 pages of...

I gotta wonder, with no sound samples to actually qualify the 1000 words spent...did anyone mention a different pick? Or some issue brought about by technique?  I really like the one V-Pick I have, but it makes itself known right around the part of the fretboard you mention.  The Fender heavy's don't offer that same color...

Just sayin'...because if the 9 pages from the other forum don't offer a solution, I'm not sure my guesses are going to radically move from what the first 2 or 3 pages offered.

HTC1

[yanyan]

Feb 10, 2023 10:53:59 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

Well, that was a long post...which I admit to not getting through all 9 pages of...

I gotta wonder, with no sound samples to actually qualify the 1000 words spent...did anyone mention a different pick? Or some issue brought about by technique?  I really like the one V-Pick I have, but it makes itself known right around the part of the fretboard you mention.  The Fender heavy's don't offer that same color...

Just sayin'...because if the 9 pages from the other forum don't offer a solution, I'm not sure my guesses are going to radically move from what the first 2 or 3 pages offered.

HTC1

The poster included links to youtube videos where he plays the guitar and demonstrates the beating phenomenon. They're on... page 5. :-D Here they are:

I was actually amazed at the poster's tenacity in trying to nail down the source of the problem. By page 6 he's still trying different things. No mention of different picks or faulty technique. Coincidentally i have been trying out different picks over the past 2 days and they don't help with the problem.

And here's my own sound recording:

EDIT: the embedded audio doesn't work. You can hear it here:

link

[cynical1]

Well, first thought that comes to mind is that something is interfering with the string vibration...or acting as a damper... It's almost like an momentary dissonance or discordant harmonic.

It seems like they've looked at everything in the thread. I'd be looking at string breakover, maybe file the saddle grooves, check the nut...yeah, I know they were fretted notes, but check it anyway... A full pocket neck shim to align the neck to the bridge is never a bad thing...but again, I remember seeing someone toss that one out in the thread...

For giggles, I wonder what would happen if you used a smaller fret profile above the octave.

How much of that forum master class have you employed on your guitar?

HTC1

[yanyan]

Feb 10, 2023 13:43:54 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

Well, first thought that comes to mind is that something is interfering with the string vibration...or acting as a damper... It's almost like an momentary dissonance or discordant harmonic.

It seems like they've looked at everything in the thread. I'd be looking at string breakover, maybe file the saddle grooves, check the nut...yeah, I know they were fretted notes, but check it anyway... A full pocket neck shim to align the neck to the bridge is never a bad thing...but again, I remember seeing someone toss that one out in the thread...

For giggles, I wonder what would happen if you used a smaller fret profile above the octave.

How much of that forum master class have you employed on your guitar?

HTC1

I didn't go through the poster's rigmarole, seeing how i either didn't have substitute parts or it was already extremely obvious (to me) that a particular thing wasn't the cause.

My problem was less severe than the poster's, and somehow different. Here's what i went through:

My Squier Strat was interesting. For about 26 years it had 3 Dimarzio pickups in them, a "calibrated set" as they call it, of Fast Track 1, Chopper, and Fast Track 2 (neck to bridge in that order). For the longest time i never really noticed the beating on the 12th fret box position, but when i got into recording and music production it started to bother me. I tried:

1. inserting folded paper towels in the spring cavity to dampen any vibrations -> didn't help.

2. replacing the old springs with brand new Gotoh power springs -> didn't help.

3. raising and lowering pickups -> didn't help.

4. decking the bridge -> didn't help.

5. adding fall-away to the frets above the 12th -> didn't help.

6. replacing strings -> the beating seems to go away at first but comes back, so didn't help.

7. replacing the bridge pickup with a brand new Dimarzio Evolution and tweaking pickup heights again to balance  -> didn't help, i think the beating even became worse.

Technique-wise, as you raised earlier, adding vibrato to the notes mitigates the beating. Obviously if the music calls for a sustained, pure non-vibrating note, one will hear the beating.

Like the poster in the strat-talk thread, i also decided to build a Warmoth partscaster (for a different reason though, as a reward to myself for completing a solo album). I removed the entire pickguard assembly from the Squier and transplanted it to the Warmoth.

And here's a major kicker:

I bought a cheapo Musiclily pre-wired HSS pickguard assembly for about $25 and dropped it into the Squier. THE BEATING VANISHED.

Meanwhile, the Warmoth with the old pickguard exhibited the same beating!

I figured it must be something going on with the pickups. I installed a set of Ibanez Quantum humbuckers, converting the setup into an HSH, and kept the middle Dimarzio Chopper. My RG has Quantums in it and isn't afflicted with the beating at all, and i like the sound of the Quantums.

The end result: while the Dimarzio Evolution had it particularly bad on the high notes of the 3rd string, especially on the high C# which was just horrible, on the Quantums the beating is pronounced on the high A on the 3rd string (14th fret) and high D on the 2nd (15th). There are also fewer frets that cause beating and it's only in that general area. A weird thing is that sometimes, perhaps depending on how i articulate the notes, the beating is more or less noticeable.

I saved this for last: there's one thing that completely removes the beating and it worked for both guitars and all of the pickup configs they went through: Adding an overdrive in front of the amp. I mainly play with distortion and a pedal sort of smoothens the beating out. But i don't want to rely on a pedal, because for one my RG doesn't force me to.

[sumgai]

Feb 10, 2023 21:29:32 GMT -5 yanyan said:

I bought a cheapo Musiclily pre-wired HSS pickguard assembly for about $25 and dropped it into the Squier. THE BEATING VANISHED.

Well, that's a major clue right there. This is a resonance issue, that's pretty clear to see.

But be aware, this resonance thingy isn't standing on the backs of the pickups alone, it's actually coupled with certain other characteristics of your axe, namely the wood(s) of both the body and neck, the fret materials, the manner of how the frets were inserted (I mean, the care taken doing that job), any glue joints, the neck shim (as already noted), even the pickup mounting screws and any springs.... they're all candidates for accentuating the beating effect you're experiencing.

Still and all, I'd start with the pups.  Doing so may not be the cheapest thing to do, but it's certainly the easiest, and probably the most easy to reverse, should you need/want to do so.  Go over to the Pickups sub-Forum and talk to antigua and his crew of pickup-o-philes.  That gang has analyzed just about everything that can be looked at, measured, and quantitized about a pickup, which may lead to why some pups exhibit the problem, and others don't.  

Now if it were me suffering here?  If changing out the pickups made the beating go away, I'd learn to live with the newly installed "tone". (Which should be labeled as "the newly installed basis for your voice. Ask c1 about that aspect of things.) An easily noticed "beat" can destroy the mood that one is projecting faster than almost anything else a guitarist can do while playing.

HTH



sumgai

[yanyan]

Feb 10, 2023 23:34:20 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Feb 10, 2023 21:29:32 GMT -5 yanyan said:

I bought a cheapo Musiclily pre-wired HSS pickguard assembly for about $25 and dropped it into the Squier. THE BEATING VANISHED.

Well, that's a major clue right there. This a resonance issue, that's pretty clear to see.

But be aware, this resonance thingy isn't standing on the backs of the pickups alone, it's actually coupled with certain other characteristics of your axe, namely the wood(s) of both the body and neck, the fret materials, the manner of how the frets were inserted (I mean, the care taken doing that job), any glue joints, the neck shim (as already noted), even the pickup mounting screws and any springs.... they're all candidates for accentuating the beating effect you're experiencing.

Still and all, I'd start with the pups.  Doing so may not be the cheapest thing to do, but it's certainly the easiest, and probably the most easy to reverse, should you need/want to do so.  Go over to the Pickups sub-Forum and talk to antigua and his crew of pickup-o-philes.  That gang has analyzed just about everything that can be looked at, measured, and quantitized about a pickup, which may lead to why some pups exhibit the problem, and others don't.  

Now if it were me suffering here?  If changing out the pickups made the beating go away, I'd learn to live with the newly installed "tone". (Which should be labeled as "the newly installed basis for your voice. Ask c1 about that aspect of things.) An easily noticed "beat" can destroy the mood that one is projecting faster than almost anything else a guitarist can do while playing.

HTH



sumgai

Ah, the pickup testing and modeling forum is actually my "home" on GN2. I've asked antigua about this issue but in the context of pickup height. He discussed how a beating sound can be caused when pickups are set too high, but he also noted how humbuckers don't seem to exhibit this.

In the case of my Squier it really does appear to have been solely the domain of the pickups. When i swapped out the pickguard assembly, i didn't change anything else on the guitar. After that, it sounded all fine. My Warmoth partscaster is what's bothering me right now. This guitar is special to me so i really want to understand this phenomenon and try to find a fix for it.

I was just doing some tests using software amps with my partscaster. Interestingly, the beating isn't as bad compared to my real amp when playing through VSTs, which leads to me to wonder if it could be related to the amp. For the past 14 years or so my only amp has been a Roland Cube 40XL. I play almost entirely on the Dual Rectifier model. I've read those amps are really fizzy -- on days when my ears seem to be more sensitive than normal, i can hear a sort of high frequency buzz while playing. Could that somehow have something to do with the issue? The high end fizz resonating with the notes?

[sumgai]

yanyan,


That "fizzy" sound is indicative of aliasing. That's a case where the harmonics above the frequency range we can hear do indeed "beat" against the lower frequencies, and the resultant product can be heard as a secondary pitch (frequency). Sometimes it comes out as an non-musical frequency, and sometimes it's a beat because that product is so close to an actual musical pitch/frequency.

What I'm getting at here is that if a pickup height plays a part, then you're dealing with Strat-itis. That's not in quotes, because the condition has existed, with that name, for a long time.... like decades long. And yes, this does sometimes involve amplifiers. Remember, it's an acoustic phenomenon as well, not strictly an electrical one. Hence your observations are in line with what I'm thinking is happening here.

Sadly, you seem to have a more extreme case of the problem than most players.

And finally, I was not aware that you "play" in the Pickups sub-Forum, sorry if I came off as condescending or anything like that.

HTH





sumgai

[pyrroz]

Feb 10, 2023 21:29:32 GMT -5 yanyan said:

I bought a cheapo Musiclily pre-wired HSS pickguard assembly for about $25 and dropped it into the Squier. THE BEATING VANISHED.

Meanwhile, the Warmoth with the old pickguard exhibited the same beating!

prewired hmmm, maybe a lose switch ? lose or faulty pots with moving parts that resonated at the same frequencies ??

The overdrive before the amp is a weird solution! I cannot grasp how this helped!

tone and electronics is a such a PITA I am still recovering from yesterday's rewiring, pickguard cutting/shaping (ouch) and the like.

[yanyan]

Feb 11, 2023 12:40:21 GMT -5 sumgai said:

yanyan,


That "fizzy" sound is indicative of aliasing. That's a case where the harmonics above the frequency range we can hear do indeed "beat" against the lower frequencies, and the resultant product can be heard as a secondary pitch (frequency). Sometimes it comes out as an non-musical frequency, and sometimes it's a beat because that product is so close to an actual musical pitch/frequency.

Could be, considering this is a digital amp. It doesn't also help that the real amp being modeled has a reputation for being fizzy by nature. But this doesn't explain why the beating isn't as bad when playing through software amps.

What I'm getting at here is that if a pickup height plays a part, then you're dealing with Strat-itis. That's not in quotes, because the condition has existed, with that name, for a long time.... like decades long. And yes, this does sometimes involve amplifiers. Remember, it's an acoustic phenomenon as well, not strictly an electrical one. Hence your observations are in line with what I'm thinking is happening here.

Sadly, you seem to have a more extreme case of the problem than most players.

I would respectfully disagree; this isn't stratitis. All pickups in question are humbuckers, no single coils with a ton of magnetic pull on this guitar. Pickup heights are roughly 2+mm away from the string bottoms pressed down at the last fret. In fact, notes on the last (22nd) fret, which should be closest to the pickups, ring clear on all pickup settings.

And finally, I was not aware that you "play" in the Pickups sub-Forum, sorry if I came off as condescending or anything like that.

Nothing of the sort! But i'm really just a casual observer there.

[yanyan]

Feb 11, 2023 17:59:49 GMT -5 pyrroz said:

Feb 10, 2023 21:29:32 GMT -5 yanyan said:

I bought a cheapo Musiclily pre-wired HSS pickguard assembly for about $25 and dropped it into the Squier. THE BEATING VANISHED.

Meanwhile, the Warmoth with the old pickguard exhibited the same beating!

prewired hmmm, maybe a lose switch ? lose or faulty pots with moving parts that resonated at the same frequencies ??

The overdrive before the amp is a weird solution! I cannot grasp how this helped!

tone and electronics is a such a PITA I am still recovering from yesterday's rewiring, pickguard cutting/shaping (ouch) and the like.

The prewired pickguard assembly is what fixed the beating on my Squier Strat. It actually sounds good. As for the Warmoth, i finished putting together its pickguard assembly 2 weeks ago and i can assure you everything is locked down tight. The volume pot is brand new and working excellently.

I suspect the overdrive pedal's compression is what removes the beating, which are rapidly alternating loud and quiet tones. The compression brings up the quiet tones so it all sounds smooth with no pulsing.

Interestingly, i just heard from antigua and he told me he doesn't believe this to be pickup-related.

[cynical1]

Sumgai puts it better than I did. As I listen to it I can hear something akin to a discordant harmonic for a brief moment. I do understand how this gets defined as a "beat", but if you've ever tuned your guitar to the harmonics on the 5th and 7th frets, you have heard that oscillation as the string in question comes into pitch against the other.  It's too predicable to be random.

I've never heard of paper towels in the spring cavity, but I have stuffed surgical or flexible tubing into springs for years to eliminate possible issues that an unsympathetic vibration may introduce.



The fact that "adding vibrato to the notes mitigates the beating" makes me think you've got two things going here. First, there is something adding a mechanical oscillation that is pronounced enough for the pickup to detect and reproduce it. Secondly, I would offer that certain pickups are better at detecting that frequency than others.  

That's really all I've got here...  Not rocket science...and I have no solution I would feel confident in standing behind either.  Look at all of the things that have to be right for a string to vibrate and make a clean note on your guitar.  Volumes have been written on this over time for acoustic instruments.  Now, take that mechanical string vibration and introduce all kinds of variables...like pickups with magnetic fields, locking nuts, vibrato systems, pick material...crappy construction...ad nauseam...and that little string begins to look quite defenseless in it's calling to vibrate unencumbered.

As indicated by the 9 pages in the other forum thread, this is one of those issues that's impossible to diagnose without seeing it.  We could spin you in 12 different directions and none of them would be helpful...as previously noted...  It may just be that you have a plow horse that'll never win the Derby no matter how many times you run him around the track hitting him with a stick...

I would offer this.  Find what the guitar does best, see if that is usable to you, then keep it for that purpose, or sell it to buy gear you need based on the where you land...especially since you already have instruments that don't exhibit this trait.

HTC1

[pyrroz]

Feb 12, 2023 4:18:51 GMT -5 yanyan said:

Feb 11, 2023 17:59:49 GMT -5 pyrroz said:

prewired hmmm, maybe a lose switch ? lose or faulty pots with moving parts that resonated at the same frequencies ??

The overdrive before the amp is a weird solution! I cannot grasp how this helped!

tone and electronics is a such a PITA I am still recovering from yesterday's rewiring, pickguard cutting/shaping (ouch) and the like.

The prewired pickguard assembly is what fixed the beating on my Squier Strat. It actually sounds good. As for the Warmoth, i finished putting together its pickguard assembly 2 weeks ago and i can assure you everything is locked down tight. The volume pot is brand new and working excellently.

I suspect the overdrive pedal's compression is what removes the beating, which are rapidly alternating loud and quiet tones. The compression brings up the quiet tones so it all sounds smooth with no pulsing.

Interestingly, i just heard from antigua and he told me he doesn't believe this to be pickup-related.

Hi, when I read that a pre-wired pickguard replaced another pickguard I tend to believe the original pickguard was also wired, right. Hence the question.

Lets remove the overdrive from the picture. You got a perfect new pickguard that doesn't beat and a perfect Warmoth pickguard that is causing beating. Is this a correct expression of the problem?

[mitch88]

Its called Stratitis or Pitch Modulation. This is a reply i received about '50's Strat pickups from a nice bloke who seems quite valid:
"One thing that can be overlooked is the effect of string pull. I find AV poles are just too strong for the pickup heights I prefer. While some may like the harder/colder tonality and punch, the "Stratitus" (pitch modulations) on the higher frets can sound awful. Some pickups mix AV with AII/III for the plain strings. That solves the problem for the G string, but the low e will still have modulations unless set fairly low. "

[mitch88]

When this 'beating' occurs try wobbling the vibrato arm slowly to encourage feedback and make this 'wobbling' useful.