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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 9:59:06 GMT -5
Seymour Duncan Custom Custom in the bridge Fleor rail pickup in neck and middle. Ideally i'd like to have series/parallel options as well as add neck or add bridge with two push pull pots. At this point though, would be happy to get anything to work lol. Total newb to guitar wiring. I've been studying for a few weeks. Trying to avoid stupid questions but definitely missing some fundamentals. Phostenix site images don't work for me. I have previously successfully wired a basic HH and SSS. Now that I'm trying to expand my horizons I'm totally stumped. The first attempt was with JohnH's Rev A. started over twice. One pickup worked each time but not the same pickup lol. Then tried a more basic Seymour Duncan schematic, tried a couple different Dimarzio schematics. Progressively getting more simple yet last nights attempt nothing worked except the Piezo bridge. One thing that is SUPER confusing to me is how the Fleor pickups and Seymour pickup have the same wiring but Fleor Green is hot and Seymour Black is hot. My first attempts were assuming the Fleor's would work opposite like the Seymour. Please enlighten me!!!       |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 16, 2023 10:43:55 GMT -5
Does it have to be push\pull switches? Any aversions to toggle switches?
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 11:20:24 GMT -5
It certainly doesn't have to be push pull pots but there's just not a lot of available space due to the Piezo, the 5-way and the magnet/piezo switch. I might be able to fit one mini toggle but that might even be pushing it. What do you think?  |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 16, 2023 11:38:10 GMT -5
I still remember the late ChrisK preaching how circuits should be designed as modules. He has wisdom all over this forum, so feel free to follow that rabbit hole. Bring an ice bag... I tossed out the toggle idea, as a BRIDGE_ON or NECK_ON is just a SPST switch. You can hide these just about anywhere.  Your pictures show an HSS guitar. I'm guessing you want series\parallel for the neck and middle pickup. Having done something similar to this, you really don't want all three in series at the same time. Trust me...it's pretty unusable...but I didn't listen the first time... Now, local series\parallel on the humbucker is useful...and that's only a DPDT switch, or push\pull. So, the small circuit board that comes and goes is for a piezo. Interesting. HTC1 |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 11:54:40 GMT -5
I still remember the late ChrisK preaching how circuits should be designed as modules. He has wisdom all over this forum, so feel free to follow that rabbit hole. Bring an ice bag... I tossed out the toggle idea, as a BRIDGE_ON or NECK_ON is just a SPST switch. You can hide these just about anywhere. Your pictures show an HSS guitar. I'm guessing you want series\parallel for the neck and middle pickup. Having done something similar to this, you really don't want all three in series at the same time. Trust me...it's pretty unusable...but I didn't listen the first time... Now, local series\parallel on the humbucker is useful...and that's only a DPDT switch, or push\pull. So, the small circuit board that comes and goes is for a piezo. Interesting. HTC1 Right on! I appreciate the reading suggestions. My work allows for a lot of downtime so I'll dig in. I've done most the wiring 101 videos I can find. But something isn't clicking yet. If I can't make any progress with the Piezo preamp, I'll try building these isolated from the guitar entirely. Though I also assume that similar to placing a guitar pedal before the amp, I can't imagine a preamp after the circuit will prohibit the pickups from working entirely. And have actually got a couple to work, with the preamp, kinda lol. The cheap chinese Fleor pickups are hot rails. So keeping the aesthetic of the HSS but will be HHH. Was your comment about HSS in series or HHH? I spent most my time on a Les Paul in neck/bridge HH so imagined it would be useful to have Neck/Bridge on this guitar. If It would make it drastically easier I'll add a switch but also have 2 Log and 2 Linear push pulls for the project in addition to a superswitch. And my main goal here is to learn how to do something cool. Eventually want to understand this stuff well enough to design my own circuits. Anything relatively easy to use the push/pulls for? I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle not understanding how I can have the Seymour and the Fleor Green/Black continuity and Red/White continuity but the Seymour is Black positve, and the Fleor is Green positive. Aren't they technically the same thing? |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 12:20:51 GMT -5
 Here's the original wiring for the guitar that shows a little info on the preamp |
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Post by newey on Feb 16, 2023 12:38:56 GMT -5
OK, so it's a Parker Fly. Nice guitar.
What you need to do is get the words "positive" and "negative" out of your vocabulary on this issue. These are shorthand terms that are not really useful in this context. Pickups generate an AC current, so the + and - swap places as the string vibrates. And "North Start", "North Finish", etc. are also not very enlightening. What one manufacturer calls "North" may be another's "South" (a magnet has a definite "North Pole" as reference to the Earth's magnetic field, but one manufacturer may call the pole pointing "Up" as "North" while another may do it the opposite).
You show a "?" next to your diagram of the Fleor wiring colors. Do you know for sure what those colors are, or are you unsure, and hence the question mark? And, do you have a multimeter?
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 16, 2023 13:01:42 GMT -5
I've done most the wiring 101 videos I can find. But something isn't clicking yet. If I can't make any progress with the Piezo preamp, I'll try building these isolated from the guitar entirely. Though I also assume that similar to placing a guitar pedal before the amp, I can't imagine a preamp after the circuit will prohibit the pickups from working entirely. And have actually got a couple to work, with the preamp, kinda lol. Forgive me if I missed it, but what's the story on the piezo? There are a few ways to employ these things. Some work and play well with the other children...some are more temperamental. The few times I did these it always involved carving out a place for it. HSS. I did an HHH, similar to yours in that it used the single coil sized pickups. I left the neck hard wired in series, because I'm a neck pickup kind of guy... The middle and bridge both had a local series\parallel toggle...which your push pull pots could accommodate as well. A SPST switch is all I used for a neck on switch. That was a small control cavity and those options work without a lot of thought. I've been here 15 years and I still need my stuff vetted. You will see all kinds of stuff here. Some very basic things...but mostly not... Wiring colors screw up everyone starting out. The Internet has made this much easier than cracking open the cavity on a guitar in the shop to see how they wired it... A quick search for "pickup wiring color chart" will get you stuff like this:  HTC1 |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 13:04:38 GMT -5
I'm not 100% sure on the wiring. Yes, I do have a multimeter and initial testing seemed to be the same as the Seymour but after I couldn't get things to work started to use this resource from the manufacturer. I tried to find a compass last night at Wal-Mart no dice. But today realized I can probably use an app on an iphone so can test for polarity tonight if you think that might be part of the problem?  |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 13:20:11 GMT -5
Forgive me if I missed it, but what's the story on the piezo? There are a few ways to employ these things. Some work and play well with the other children...some are more temperamental. As far as I understand the output of the mag pickups connects to a 3 way switch, Mag pickups/Both/Piezo then power circuit/9v, volume, then output. There is an image of the original schematic a couple posts up. |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 13:24:10 GMT -5
What you need to do is get the words "positive" and "negative" out of your vocabulary on this issue Think that's why I feel so stumped. After trying all blacks as positive then trying all greens as positive then days of scratching my head over why it wasn't working the only thing I noticed was that the Floer claims green positive, Seymour black. Unless i'm just not testing properly they seem to be the same otherwise. |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 13:27:35 GMT -5
I updated this photo for a little more clarity as well. |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 16, 2023 13:54:07 GMT -5
It looks to me, based on the image you posted, the wiring is identical between the SD's and the Fleor's  Please correct me if I read this all wrong... HTC1 |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 14:12:12 GMT -5
It looks to me, based on the image you posted, the wiring is identical between the SD's and the Fleor's Ok, so i'm not crazy!? Well, relatively speaking anyway... Thank you that's a huge help already. Could also mention the Fleor's arrived with the black and ground connected and the red and white connected so that also helps confirm. |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 16, 2023 14:19:58 GMT -5
What happened to the pickups you pulled from this guitar?
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Post by newey on Feb 16, 2023 14:25:55 GMT -5
Yes, that clarifies that the colors are the same. The N and S coils may not be, as I noted above, but any differences in magnetic polarity shouldn't affect what you're wanting to do. The preamp may pose some issues, though, as cynical1 said. Have to take a closer look at that. You said the most recent attempt was the "simpler" SD diagram. The one you showed has coil splitting, not series/parallel. Is that how the guitar is wired now? Given what you're describing about several rewiring attempts, with some things working and some not, we're probably going to have to go back to basics and start from scratch, excepting the piezo/preamp stuff. |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 14:31:35 GMT -5
What happened to the pickups you pulled from this guitar? I have them. I've played them for about 5 years only because the neck on this guitar is incredible. The pickups are some of the absolute worst I've ever heard stale, lifeless, muddy. Consolidated my 17 electric guitar collection down to 4 guitars I couldn't let go of. Plan on playing out with just my SSS American Strat and this. In an effort to get this guitar into shred territory, Had the Seymour Duncan Custom Custom laying around after selling off my Les Pauls and inspired by Andy Timmons decided to see if I can get some silk out of the Neck with these cheap chinese pickups. Have a 6ohm and a 9ohm Alnico V to experiment with once I can figure out how the hell to hook them up lol. |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 14:39:08 GMT -5
You said the most recent attempt was the "simpler" SD diagram. The one you showed has coil splitting, not series/parallel. Is that how the guitar is wired now? Given what you're describing about several rewiring attempts, with some things working and some not, we're probably going to have to go back to basics and start from scratch, excepting the piezo/preamp stuff. I can rewire it to factory if that helps. I haven't adjusted the preamp at all. Just banked on the fact it is after the circuit. Have gone over it though to confirm after all the attempts all the contacts are in order. Also last thing I confirmed last night is the piezo pickups are all still working properly. Well, the only thing working properly. lol The most recent attempt was the Dimarzio schematic I initially uploaded with the images. Wired it based on Dimarzio's polarity i.e. Red = Positive. Now I know I can go back and just change the wires from Dimarzio to SD. That should help get me back on the right track. |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 16, 2023 15:04:26 GMT -5
I tend to grab my pickups wherever they've used and cheap. eBay, Reverb...etc.. I personally prefer higher end stuff used than new stuff cheap. Personal preference.
The first thing I always did was work out the wiring colors. Then I'd use those colors in my diagrams. (Sorry, genetic defect that precludes me from reading schematics) Once you have a good reference for your pickups, you can use any scheme, as long as you have one valid reference. Just change the colors to coincide with the pickups you're using.
I just looked...I don't have an instrument that I've touched that has a single brand of pickup in it exclusively...
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 16:13:34 GMT -5
I tend to grab my pickups wherever they've used and cheap. eBay, Reverb...etc.. I personally prefer higher end stuff used than new stuff cheap. Personal preference. The first thing I always did was work out the wiring colors. Then I'd use those colors in my diagrams. (Sorry, genetic defect that precludes me from reading schematics) Once you have a good reference for your pickups, you can use any scheme, as long as you have one valid reference. Just change the colors to coincide with the pickups you're using. I just looked...I don't have an instrument that I've touched that has a single brand of pickup in it exclusively... HTC1 I hear ya on the buy once cry once. I don't have enough experience for a proper frame of reference on rail pickups but seems a fun experiment since i've used this Custom Custom for almost 20 years, should be interesting to see how the cheap pickups compare to it they were $13 a piece! Super curious on the resistance etc. hence why I bought an extra 9ohm for fun. If i'm understanding correctly, you're suggesting to start out by copying a diagram with my wire colors. I think i've got that far and gained a little confidence now that you guys have confirmed the rails SHOULD work using Seymour Duncan colors. Do I still need to worry about polarity? What do you mean by one valid reference? |
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 16, 2023 16:51:08 GMT -5
Do I still need to worry about polarity? What do you mean by one valid reference? You just need to make sure that the North\South relationship stays intact for the scheme. For example, I have a guitar with a DiMarzio HS-3 pickup, an Armstrong HR1RCCLOSE stacked humbucker and a Rockfield Zebra PAF humbucker. None of them used the same color scheme to denote start and finish on the respective coils. By "one valid point of reference", see below:  As long as you know the coil wiring scheme you can modify it to any pickup and it'll work like it says on the box. For now, you don't need to look any farther than N\S; START\FINISH. HTC1 |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 16, 2023 17:36:07 GMT -5
For now, you don't need to look any farther than N\S; START\FINISH. Ok I think i'm following. Is there a way to test for start/finish? |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 17, 2023 9:49:08 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 17, 2023 10:10:12 GMT -5
For me, I would make a wish list of all the crazy stuff I wanted to do with a mod. Then I'd survey the real estate in the control cavity and go from there. The nice thing with keeping things in modules is that you can put it together like Legos. If you find room for one more switch, it's just a matter of dropping it in the circuit.
Example: On Project #2 I wanted a series option for all three pickups in an HSS guitar. I was warned off of it, but I had never done it and wanted to see what it sounded like. Well, everyone else was right...it sounded like the worlds largest dental drill going through sheet metal... Since it was just another link in the chain, I was able to pull it and use the toggle for a phase switch...which I like much better that full series mode.
Two thoughts come to mind. Shielding and bridge ground. Does the noise change when you touch the strings?
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 17, 2023 10:41:15 GMT -5
The nice thing with keeping things in modules is that you can put it together like Legos. Ok that's definitely an ah-ha moment. That makes perfect sense. Do you typically run modules before the switch or after? As far as the noise, I did not ground to bridge yet. And there is practically no shielding. Guess I'll rule those out before assuming it's a polarity issue. Is there a rule of thumb for running grounds to pots? I've read it's possible to create ground loops by grounding too much, also read that's not really a thing but haven't actually seen any rhyme or reason to keep grounds organized. |
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Post by newey on Feb 17, 2023 12:19:42 GMT -5
Is there a rule of thumb for running grounds to pots? I've read it's possible to create ground loops by grounding too much, also read that's not really a thing but haven't actually seen any rhyme or reason to keep grounds organized. Ground loops of such a short length as the wires between the pots are not a concern. The concern with solderiung grounds to the back of pots is melting the innards of the pot. The resistive element in modern pots is mostly plastic these days, and too much time under the soldering iron can fry them. That didn't used to be the case back in the '50s and '60's, pots were built more stoutly. So, using a star-ground technique avoids ahving to solder to the backs of pots, and in theory, might be quieter as well. |
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Post by astrostrato on Feb 18, 2023 18:26:16 GMT -5
Couple observations now that I’ve been able to play for a few hours;
I missed two seprate grounds and redid at least two wires on the switch. Turns out, coming back the next day to just retrace everything instead of starting over is crucial for me.
Add bridge to the push/pull
Realized push/pulls suck and swapped it for a push/push lol
The Floer pickups are absolutely killer!!!
Mixes unbelievably with the Seymour
Shocked they actually ALMOST sound better
Tried the 9ohm and 6ohm in neck and 6 ohm in middle
Love the 9ohm in neck with the 6 in center. 9 breaks up a little faster than the 6 otherwise sounds the same. The 6 gives a perfect vol drop, clarity and single coil territory in parallel. Silky smooth lead sound in position 5 and cutting lead sound in position 1. Position 2,3,4 are all wonderful in different ways, completely usable sounds but distinctly different. Unlike a traditional Strat the middle pickup is more powerful.
The parallel positions in 2 and 4 are stupid good sounds. THICC and chimey alla SRV
Adding the bridge to the neck in position 4 and 5 is equally impressive and articulate.
I’m completely in LOVE
Everything cleans up perfectly with volume.
Will add blower switch to the extra push/push since I’m 100% satisfied with these 8.5 tones and configuration.
THANK YOU TO Cynical1, Newey and this forum. Can’t wait for the next project.
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 18, 2023 19:16:57 GMT -5
You're entirely welcome.
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