Phase does not work

[frets]

Hi Guys😸Hope everyone is well.

I have a problem with the following wiring and can’t figure it out as it looks okay to me.
The problem is no phase in positions 2&4. Dead on 2.3.4.  Pickups work on 5 & 6.  Series works.  

Of course, I need phase on 2&4.  I hope someone sees my error.  It is a Series, Phase, Blender harness.
Thank you!!😸😸😸

[newey]

Sorry, but I'm a bit unclear here. Is SW3 a regular Strat 5-way switch of which you are only showing one-half? (I'm assuming that is the case, that you only showed 1/2 of it).

Pickups work on 5 & 6

6??

You said "no phase" on 2 and 4, and then "dead" on 2,3,4. So, are pickups active on 2,3,and 4 when the phase switch is not set to OOP? Only dead when the phase switch is flipped? Or dead regardless?

Also, is the Bridge pup #1 or #5 as you are designating them?

[frets]

Hi Newey,
I apologize for being confusing.
Actually there are two sides of SW3.  I’m just using the right hand side. If you look, there is a right side and left side (A &B).

Forget the “6” that is just a typo.
Ill go through it sequentially. 
When the push pulls are in the down position, the 5-Way works as it should and all pickups provide their respective position.
1 is the Bridge, 5 is the Neck.
When the Volume is pulled up, the Series works fine.
When the Tone push pull is pulled up, regardless if the Volume/Series is pulled up or not, there is no signal on 2,3 & 4.  1 and 5 work.
When not pulled up, there is the correct signal on 2, 3 and 4.
So, when the Tone/Phase is pulled up, the guitar is dead on 2, 3 and 4.  That is the problem. 
The tone works as it should in terms of rolling in the cap.
The sole problem is deadness on 2,3 and 4 when the Tone/Phase is pulled up.

I don’t mean to be redundant, I just want to make sure I clarify from my original post and answer all your questions.  

This is my configuration.  I do not know if there is one that is similar to it.

I really want to get it to work. Boo Hoo! I can not see what I am doing wrong.  To me, it should work as configured.

[unreg]

Does your tone/phase push pull actually work, by itself, when it’s pulled up?

My thought would be to check multimeter continuity between supposedly-connected lugs when it’s pulled up. When it’s been verified then worry about your diagram. Your diagram might just be correct; the “pull” might be broken.


Sorry, just my thinking.

[newey]

frets-

I'll try to get a closer lok at it over the weekend. pretty swamped IRL at the moment. Or someone else may be along. At first glance I didn't see anything obviously wrong, but that's not an opinion I'd put any money on.

[sumgai]

frets,


It took me awhile to see it, because there are actually two problems here.

To start off, you've wired the phase-reverse in the normal fashion, and that's fine so far. But what you didn't do was to look for all of the other connections that are found further along the signal path. Let's do that now.

With S1 in the down position, we'll trace the yellow lead from the Bridge Hot back through the circuitry. Starting from S3, in Pos 2, 3 or 4, we see not only does Bridge Hot go to the output, but also to S1 via a purple wire. That now changes to green, and goes to S2 (lower left terminal). With S2 down, the "cross" changes the green wire to blue, which then goes to the Middle pickup, and comes out as black. Black goes back to S2 (left side common), and thence to ground. At this point, it's all working as intended. Per your statement that both parallel and series work as intended, I'll skip analyzing the series mode.

Now let's see what happens when S2 is up. As before, purple from S3 goes back to S1. With S1 still down (parallel), purple becomes green, and then goes to S2, as before. But now, S2 is up, so that green becomes black, and heads towards the Mid pup. Being thorough, Green also crosses over the switch, but that's a dead end, so there's nothing to worry about at this point.

Now let's continue following that black wire over to the pickup. Through the pup, and out the Hot lead (Blue), back to S1, and on to... ground. Hmm, wasn't this supposed to be "hot" line?! Yes indeed, we've just grounded our outgoing signal, via S2 up and the Middle pup. But what makes it all go South in a hurry is that our Bridge ground lead is also grounded at all times (in parallel mode), so, guess what? Yep, you can't have both pup leads going to ground at any time, not if you want an output signal. And that includes inserting an inductor into the path of either leg going to ground - ground is ground, and that's all she wrote. 

Almost forgot to mention, and this has bitten me on the butt more than once, as other Nutz will (gleefully) tell you... When you have a shorted pickup in parallel with other pickups, they are also shorted, which explains why there's no sound at all.

I could also analyze the Series path, but at this point, I think that'd be an interesting exercise best left to the modder.   The mistake is different, but the results are the same - no signal going out the jack.  Cindi, can you find the error, and report back please?  I'm pretty sure I've given you sufficient clues, but if not, additional help is here for the asking.

HTH





sumgai

[frets]

Sumgai😸,

Thank you for doing such a thorough examination of my diagram. I see what you are saying but can’t think of a way to fix this. I don’t know if it can be done, at least not in the configuration I have it in.

[ashcatlt]

I think…

Well I can’t quite work out the specifics right now, but I think you can use one side of the 5-way for the bridge and neck pickups and then flip their phase on the way to the S/P switch. The middle pickup always wants to be grounded, so that can just be a permanent connection which kind of logically means it’s the others that need to get flipped.

Actually, do you even need to change the 5-way? Not really, I think, but it’s still too early…

[sumgai]

frets,


I really didn't think it through in my last missive, I should've worked a bit longer to devise a solution.

In fact, I hadn't one, until ash piped up with "use the other side of S3", and that triggered me. Let me go away and see if I can make this work for you....

It'll take another day or two, so you know the drill.

HTH



sumgai

[ashcatlt]

Errr…thought I had it for a minute…

[frets]

Ash and Sumgai😸

That is exactly how I feel about it. I have stared at this diagram and can not for the life of me see a problem. To me (like everything😸) I think it should work. Sorry it’s so frustrating.

[sumgai]

Well, yeah, life sometimes gets up in your face and goes "neener neener neener", just making you all the more upset.

Tomorrow (Saturday the 14th) I'll have some time to dive in and see if I can't make it all come together for you.

Stand by.....






sumgai

[frets]

Could it be this?  

[sumgai]

frets ,


No, that's not it, sorry.

But I was also wrong in my earlier analysis, and I can prove it.

First, you stated that there's no output from S3 positions 2, 3, and 4 when S2 is 'up', right?    Well, Pos 3 is the Middle pup only, so we can safely eliminate both other pickups, and S1 can go too - we'll just pretend that the purple and green wires are the same conductor, OK?

Now, with no other components in the way of our signal, pulling up on S2 when S3 in pos 3 should still give us something from the Middle pup, eh? Our ears won't hear anything different about the tonality, it's the only pickup in the circuit. The crossover is not needed, but since it is present, then it only makes sense that sound should be forthcoming no matter whether S2 is up or down. The fact that no sound comes out when the switch is 'up' means that either there's a crazy bad solder joint, or the switch itself is bad internally.

Test by unsoldering both ends of both cross wires. Hardwire the connections in place, first for 'regular' phase, and then for 'reverse' phase. Tapping the pickup magnets should work in each case. If not, then regardless of what an Ohm meter might say, S2 is bad. (Presuming that there are no suspicious solder joints.)



tl;dr:

Your logic in laying out the circuit was correct. You have either a bad component, or a bad solder joint.

HTH





sumgai

[frets]

Sumgai,

Thank you for all your help with this. It’s good to know that my wiring diagram is correct. Thank you for deciphering this. You’re the best😻. I will check for a bad solder and replace the pot if necessary.

[unreg]

Oct 11, 2023 16:00:22 GMT -5 unreg said:

Does your tone/phase push pull actually work, by itself, when it’s pulled up?

My thought would be to check multimeter continuity between supposedly-connected lugs when it’s pulled up. When it’s been verified then worry about your diagram. Your diagram might just be correct; the “pull” might be broken.


Sorry, just my thinking.

Would checking continuity between supposedly connected lugs when the switch is pulled up be proper in regards to verifying the switch?

On second thought, I don’t know anything specific about push pull potentiometers, so my absence of knowledge does not require you to teach; never mind.

[newey]

Oct 15, 2023 15:53:51 GMT -5 unreg said:

Would checking continuity between supposedly connected lugs when the switch is pulled up be proper in regards to verifying the switch?

Basically, yes, but a dodgy connection might show itself not as disconnected (i.e.,"infinite" resistance) but as connected with a high resistance (more than a few Ohms). A multimeter will tell one that, a simple "yes/no" continuity tester will not. And, one would want to check the various lugs in all positions of the switch, up and down both.