Wanted: Telecaster 5 way wiring w dark circuit and ser/para

[thrillho]

Starting a new project Tele (2 single coils) and wanted to know if it's possible to get the following options on a 5 way switch (or super switch, or with push pulls).

position 1 -- 50s "dark circuit" neck only w/ .047 cap (no tone control)

position 2 -- neck only

position 3 -- neck and bridge in parallel

position 4 -- neck and bridge in series

position 5 -- bridge only

Those are just the ideal positions. If it can be done some other way or with push pulls or something else I'm still interested.

Any help is much appreciated.

Also any ideas for 4 and 5 way switching options for Teles is also appreciated.

[unreg]

Greetings thrillho, welcome to GN2! Much better guitar electronic minds will surely reply, but here’s something that may help you…

Nov 5, 2023 22:42:45 GMT -5 thrillho said:

Also any ideas for 4 and 5 way switching options for Teles is also appreciated.

Note: these diagrams exist on the Phostenix Pages:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8880/teles

Just choose 2 pickup teles or 3 pickup teles. Lots of the first part of the 2 pickup teles page are diagrams with 3way switches. Most all of the 3 pickup teles page are diagrams with 5way switches. And push pull pots are frequently used throughout both pages too.

[newey]

thrillho -

unreg 's link above to Phostenix's Tele diagrams has a few that are close to what you want, if you page way down. There is a "Jerry Donohoe Tele" Japan-style wiring that has the neck through a cap, but the series position would need to be added. It uses a Superswitch, so the series could be added to that. Alternatively, there is a version with a 5-way SUperswitch that has a setting with the bridge bypassing the tone control; this could be altered so that the neck has a cap and no tone control.

Another option, which may offer more logical switching, would be to use the Fender "Baja Tele" 4-way switch for the pickup switching. giving you the series and parallel settings along with each pickup individually, and then use a Push/pull to bypass the tone and add the cap to the neck settings when pulled up.

BTW, you may want to experiment with cap values for the '50's "dark tone". I have an Esquire-style tele that I have rewired a couple of times. I found .047µ f to be a bit too dark to be useable, and find I prefer .033µf. This will depend, too, on the pickups you use, so you may want to experiment a bit (This can be done external to the guitar without rewiring).

Also, if you elect to go with the Baja 4-way switch, the Fender wiring of that has the series position at one end of the switch, instead of having the neck and bridge alone at the ends. That can be changed for the better (IMO) by having the series and parallel options occupy the two center positions instead. There are diagrams here and elsewhere to do so.

A third option, more "switchy" perhaps, would be to just keep the standard Tele 3-way, and use a push/pull to put the pickups in series, bypassing the 3-way. A second push/pull would then do the neck with the cap added and tone bypassed.

[stevewf]

I think I've come up with a schematic that provides the original request. Disclaimer: I ain't no expert, so my designs should be checked by others.

Since I joined the Nutz house, I've always been encouraged by the forum "elders" to try to learn how to come up with my own answers, so I likewise encourage trying on your own.

Nevertheless, here's an attempt. Click the "Spoiler" button if you want to see (hopefully to check it against your own attempt).

SPOILER: Click to show

Notes: The two caps could be reduced to one with a small change to the schematic. Also, the bridge coil is always connected to ground; some souls more sensitive than I may object to that.

---

But what I found more fun was to try to get the same combinations using a 3-way switch and a Fender S-1 switch:

SPOILER: Click to show

Notes: The two caps could be reduced to one with a small change to the schematic. Also, the bridge coil is always connected to ground; some souls more sensitive than I may object to that. One of the S-1 poles goes unused here.
4-pole 3-way blade switches are not very common. The only one I've gotten my hands on is a little janky (the detentes are slightly off from the slot, so you can slide the blade past the detente. It works fine, but feels loose.)

---

Edit: oh yeah, and you'll want to separate the Neck coil's "cold" from its shielding, or you risk lots of hum when in Serial mode.

[newey]

you'll want to separate the Neck coil's "cold" from its shielding,

This ^^^^^^^^^^. Unless you are using some different type of Tele neck pickup without a cover. If it has a cover, you have to break the connection (Carefully!) between the pickup "neg" and the cover/baseplate. Run a separate ground wire to ground the cover/baseplate, and then lengthen the liberated pickup wire, and connect as per the diagram.

[newey]

Nov 7, 2023 17:27:35 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Also, the bridge coil is always connected to ground; some souls more sensitive than I may object to that.

We have discussed this here ad infinitum. Consensus is, no worries. And sensitive souls tend to not last long around this joint.

stevewf's Superswitch version checks out by me. Didn't get the chance to go through the S-1 diagram yet.

I think separate caps are the way to go here. Two caps gives you the option to have 2 different tones (Yes, I know eliminating the tone pot at #1 will make a difference. But you could vary it more than just turning down the tone knob to 0).

The only reason a Strat shares a cap between its tone pots is that Leo wanted to save a buck or two. Caps are cheap, especially in bulk, but Fender uses a lot of caps. May save a few cents per guitar, but if you're making hundreds of thousands . . .

If you're building this thing from the ground up, you don't need to worry about a few extra cents for a second cap.

[thrillho]

Wow!

First, thank you stevewf, that's far more than I was expecting

Second, I somewhat shamefully have to confess that I don't know how to read a proper schematic >.<  only wiring diagrams with purdy pitures of pots and switches. This is far out of my depth.

My apologies, this looks like it was a lot of work and I feel bad I don't understand it.

So, I want to understand it, or at least try to. I have 4-6 weeks until my pickups arrive. I know that's probably not enough time for a crash course in electronics, but what are some good beginner materials (books, youtube, etc) to start learning how to turn this into a wiring diagram?

In the meantime, I know how to wire up a push pull for series, but I'm stuck figuring out how to add the dark cap neck position on a 4 way. If someone could show me what the switch would look like with a position for the dark cap, I could probably draw up the rest of the diagram with a push/pull for series.

[stevewf]

Nov 7, 2023 22:28:08 GMT -5 thrillho said:

Second, I somewhat shamefully have to confess that I don't know how to read a proper schematic >.<  only wiring diagrams with purdy pitures of pots and switches.

No shame. I'm equally stuck with wiring diagrams - I can't use them for understanding or creating designs, and can only use them when soldering. What's more, I don't have any good suggestions for learning how to read schematics; it just kinda happened to me.

For me, schematics show a way to understand how/why the circuit works. By contrast, I find wiring diagrams helpful when checking that the physical connections are where they're meant to be. When I design and wire a guitar circuit, I first make schematics until I like the design. Then I translate it into a wiring diagram to optimize the physical layout of the wires, and I refer to the wiring diagram when soldering.

Others can simply look at a wiring diagram and easily figure out the function.

If I can get time, I'll try to turn those schematics into wiring diagrams.

In the meantime, I know how to wire up a push pull for series, but I'm stuck figuring out how to add the dark cap neck position on a 4 way. If someone could show me what the switch would look like with a position for the dark cap, I could probably draw up the rest of the diagram with a push/pull for series.

I bet you won't have to wait long!

[stevewf]

...except I for one can't see a way to get the desired, which I think is:

Desired:
1: Neck with Dark cap (push/pull has no effect)
2: Neck with tone knob (P/P has no effect)
3: Neck and Bridge (P/P determines Serial or Parallel)
4: Bridge only (P/P has no effect)
That's  beyond my skill, given the switches on the market.

---

But the following does look possible to me:
1: Neck only
2: Neck and Bridge (Parallel)
3: Neck and Bridge (Serial)
4: Bridge only
and the P/P chooses either a Dark cap or the Tone knob, in all blade switch positions

---

Further, here's an alternative approach to the "Push/Pull => Dark" sound. A P/P switch could offer these two modes:
P/P Down = Normal tone control (e.g. 22nF with a pot)
P/P Up = automatic 22nF treble cut, plus the pot controls another deeper treble cut (e.g. 47nF)

To explain further, when the P/P is down (normal position), then the Tone knob acts as usual, letting full signal through at CW (10), and as it's turned CCW, cutting more and more of the highs.
Imagine then that the tone knob is turned back to 10; when the P/P is raised, then the treble is automatically cut just as if the normal tone knob has been turned down to zero. Twisting the Tone knob toward zero cuts even more treble, as a deeper range of frequencies gets cut.

So that would look like:
1: Neck only
2: Neck and Bridge (Parallel)
3: Neck and Bridge (Serial)
4: Bridge only
and the P/P chooses either a normal Tone control, or one with a deeper treble cut.

Interested?

[newey]

thrillho-

You'll understand things better, in that you'll have a deeper understanding of how the circuit works, if you take stevewf's schematic and turn it into a wiring diagram. Steve's method of doing a schematic first, then a wiring diagram, is the way most of us work here. The schematic proves the concept; the wiring diagram is for soldering that concept into a guitar.

We'll help with your learning curve here. Look at the Superswitch schematic. A Superswitch has 4 poles; in a wiring diagram, we would show a physical switch that looks like the physical object, but in a schematic, the 4 poles are "disambiguated" for clarity. Steve labels the Superswitch as "S3", and the 4 poles are labelled "a", "b", "c" and "d". The two pots, V and T, are labelled "P1" and "P2". A pot has three connections to it. The center lug, the "wiper" as it is called, is shown by a line with an arrow; the other 2 lugs are shown to the right and left sides. Grounding is shown by a red square.

See if you can "see" what the schematic is doing by tracing out the conections. Then you can translate the schematic to a diagram. We'll help walk you through this, don't worry if your first efforts are wrong, that's part of the learning process.

Also note that schematic symbols differ somewhat. The way that Steve shows the pots, for example, is not the way these are typically depicted in a schematic; you'll typically see pots as a zigzag line (the symbol for a resistor) with an arrow to the center representing the wiper.

[thrillho]

Nov 8, 2023 5:13:48 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Interested?

Absolutely, thank you!

[stevewf]

Here's a go at a setup that would provide:
1: Neck only
2: Neck and Bridge (Parallel)
3: Neck and Bridge (Serial)
4: Bridge only
and the P/P chooses either a normal Tone control, or one with a deeper treble cut.

Details on that last bit about the tone control:

• When the P/P is down (normal), then the tone knob works as usual, i.e. no (or very minimal) effect when clockwise (10), and fully applied when at 0. That's from c1. I'd use a relatively moderate cap here, eg 22nF or even 15nF
• (Turn the tone knob back up to 10) When the P/P is pulled up, then the treble is cut as if a tone knob were at 0, and with c2 as the capacitor. Then, turning the tone knob down from there also applies c3. There are some interesting choices to be made about what caps to put in for c2 and c3, especially c2; certainly, c3 should be higher value than c2, otherwise the knob won't have any effect. But c2 could be lower, same or higher than c1, depending on desired effect. Some examples:
• • Ex1: c1=22nF, c2=15nF, c3=47nF Pulling the switch will have a moderate "take the edge off" effect, and turning the knob will make it substantially darker
  • Ex2: c1=22nF, c2=22nF, c3=47nF Pulling the switch will sound as if the "normal" tone knob (i.e. switch pushed down) has been turned all the way to zero, and turning the knob makes it substantially darker
  • Ex3: c1=22nF, c2=33nF, c3=47nF Pulling the switch will sound as if a stronger than "normal" tone knob has been turned to zero, and the knob will make it even darker.

Sorry that this drawing is in schematic format rather than a wiring diagram; that's all I have time for right now, but I'll try to make a wiring diagram later, especially if others here would take a look and make sure I haven't messed up.

SPOILER: Click to show

edit: the intended control combinations:
1: Neck only
2: Neck + Bridge (par)
3: Neck x Bridge (ser)
4: Bridge only
Push-pull: Dn for normal tone knob; Up for darker plus deeper tone knob.

Wiring diagram when I have time!

[sumgai]

stevewf ,


I see a couple of potential problems here:

a) You've set the Tone control after the Volume control.  I'm pretty sure you're familiar with what that does to the interaction between the two controls, yes?  Meaning, there's a reason why we set the Tone control(s) before the Volume control.

and;

b) When capacitors are hooked in series, the total capacitance is lower than either unit, not higher.  Therefore, it won't matter which of C2 or C3 is smaller, that's the one that will dominate the tonality.  Let me suggest that you either lash up a SPICE emulation, or drag out John's inimitable GutarFreak, and watch what happens with two caps in series.

HTH




sumgai

[sumgai]

Nov 5, 2023 22:42:45 GMT -5 thrillho said:

Starting a new project Tele (2 single coils) and wanted to know if it's possible to get the following options on a 5 way switch (or super switch, or with push pulls).

position 1 -- 50s "dark circuit" neck only w/ .047 cap (no tone control)

position 2 -- neck only

position 3 -- neck and bridge in parallel

position 4 -- neck and bridge in series

position 5 -- bridge only

us

Those are just the ideal positions.

This is doable, with minimal fuss. More in a moment

Also any ideas for 4 and 5 way switching options for Teles is also appreciated.

stevewf has given you a start, but do note my message above regarding my concerns. Still, it's a good start, and easily fixed.


Now, let's examine your first proposal. It's actually nothing more than a combination of the very first Fender Esquire (nee Broadcaster), and a current Baja Telecaster. The former had a Tone control bypass (for full dark) and the latter has all four possible combos (without any out-of-phase stuff).   Since you don't mention OoP, I won't go into that just now.

So what you can do, depending on how you like to "operate" your rig, is you can keep the blade switch 'normal' (5 positions) or normal for a Baja Tele (4 positions) and then use one or more mini-toggle switches to give more options. It will all depend on how much you interact with the controls while playing, especially while on stage, in front of people. (What some of us call "the fiddly factor", whereby the risk of something going wrong increases dramatically.)

If you wish, I can whip up a diagram that will meet your first proposal, dead on.  But as is the usual case here in The NutzHouse, you are not limited in any way against changing your mind! This happens all the time. So your biggest thing to consider is the ease of switching between sounds. After that, you might set a priority on parts, i.e. what you have on hand versus spending more cash for additional stuff.

The ball's in your court partner, what's on your mind?

HTH





sumgai

[stevewf]

At the risk of hijacking a thread...

Nov 10, 2023 22:12:50 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I see a couple of potential problems here:

a) You've set the Tone control after the Volume control.  I'm pretty sure you're familiar with what that does to the interaction between the two controls, yes?  Meaning, there's a reason why we set the Tone control(s) before the Volume control.

Thanks, sumgai, for having a look. This place is great.  One reason it's great is that I know you'll take it easy on me  when I admit I don't see how the tone's after the vol. Here's what I see: The orange network is the source for both the vol and tone pots. By contrast, if the tone pot comes after the vol pot, the the tone pot's source would have to be the red network. (this is, by the way, the reason I color my schematic networks - in the hopes of communicating easily). If I've got that principle wrong, please help send me to the right class.

b) When capacitors are hooked in series, the total capacitance is lower than either unit, not higher.  Therefore, it won't matter which of C2 or C3 is smaller, that's the one that will dominate the tonality.  Let me suggest that you either lash up a SPICE emulation, or drag out John's inimitable GutarFreak, and watch what happens with two caps in series.

One day, I'll have to put in the learning time on SPICE and GF. These days, I'm down to Wednesday afternoons only for my hobby, so time's precious, and I've got a queue of guitars waiting for attention. 
But I have now read just a little bit about caps in series and parallel (thanks for the prompt), so I think I needed to put them in parallel to achieve the effect I wanted. So I've moved one connection, near c2, putting it in parallel with c3.

SPOILER: Click to show

But still, the tone has to be on the correct side of the volume.

[newey]

Nov 11, 2023 1:35:26 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Here's what I see: The orange network is the source for both the vol and tone pots.

You're correct, they are wired the standard way. I think the pot symbols you used kind of threw me off, had to look closely, that may have been where sg was seeing it wrongly. The newer version with caps in parallel looks fine to me.

[stevewf]

Nov 11, 2023 5:50:43 GMT -5 newey said:

I think the pot symbols you used kind of threw me off, had to look closely, that may have been where sg was seeing it wrongly.

Apologies, all, for the non-standard components. Perhaps I should stick to using them "internally" only, for my own use, and use more conventional ones when discussing. I draw them that way so I can remember whether to choose A or C taper pots.

Wiring diagram coming soon.

[Yogi B]

Nov 11, 2023 10:51:32 GMT -5 stevewf said:

I draw them that way so I can remember whether to choose A or C taper pots.

ChrisK had a way of doing the same, whilst better retaining the familiar appearance, by varying the density of the zigzags. An example of which can be seen in the following image (originally from here).

SPOILER: Click to show

[sumgai]

stevewf ,

Nov 11, 2023 1:35:26 GMT -5 stevewf said:

The orange network is the source for both the vol and tone pots.

It was the coloring that did it for me! You're correct, and I was wasn't.

Your latest diagram from Post #14 should go directly into the Guitar Schematics sub-Forum! (And any wiring diagram you might later post.)







sumgai

[stevewf]

OK, so here's an attempt at translating the schematic in post#14 into a wiring diagram:

SPOILER: Click to show

A few things:

• I pulled a dirty trick on you, and added a capacitor and a resistor (c4 and r1, near the volume pot). That's a "treble bleed" that mitigates a common problem: turning down the volume also dulls the tone.
• Wire colors can of course be substituted. Here I color them for mapping with the schematic in post#14, but black & white are more commonly found in people's soldering kit.
• I added wiring for shielding, shown in yellow. If you shield the cavity, you may want to include it in the yellow wiring.
• Many people use another component as the junction point (not like the drawing above, which uses the volume pot's shell for this). It's meant to avoid damaging the pot with heat while soldering.
• All the capacitor, resistor and pot values are chef's choice.

For the chef: some suggested ballpark values for the treble bleed resistor: r1 ~ 150KΩ to 220KΩ and c4 ~ .86nF to 1nF

For the tone caps, this is largely uncharted area as far as I know, and I can see different directions to go. Here I'm brainstorming:

• When the switch is down ("normal"), then the tone knob acts normally, with a commonly used cap value. Switched up, the tone instantly "takes the edge off". That's with the switch up and the knob at 10; turning the knob down makes it very dark. c1=22nF, c2=15nF, c3=47nF
• Switched down, the knob has very light effect. Pulled up, the knob instantly "takes the edge off" and turns down like a normal tone control. c1=15nF, c2=15nF, c3=33nF
• Down, has a very strong tone knob. Up makes it instantly dark, but only moderately so, and turning the knob has no effect. c1=47nF, c2=22nF, c3 is omitted (leaving no connection in its place).

There must be other ways to go, too

I've assumed some knowledge on thrillho's part, like "what's a nF"? If you already know the terminology I've been using, good. If not, don't be afraid to ask here. This is where I learned it too. Same goes for sourcing capacitors and resistors, and what power rating to get for them.

[stevewf]

Nov 11, 2023 22:53:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

(And any wiring diagram you might later post.)

I think I'll also wait for some vetting of any wiring diagrams I make at this point I still make mistakes. Corrections from the kind Nutz can help make a final version, and then I'll try posting there.
If thrillho decides to implement this -- and there's no obligation to do so! We all change our minds! -- then maybe the results can be added in that thread.

[thrillho]

Thank you all so much!

I'll most likely be going with the stevewf diagram with the dark tone on the pull once my pickups arrive. I'll probably audition some different values for r1 and c4, but I'm fairly certain I'm gonna go with c1=22nF, c2=15nF, c3=47nF, since (and correct me if I'm wrong) this would most closely mirror the original "dark circuit" cap values Leo put in the first run of blackguard teles. I'll post some updates and sound samples in a few weeks